Companies

[ezzlar]

It is fun reading the thread again after such a long time.

It would be fun if the general dominance of corporations would follow a pattern of:

Early game, strong corps in the Levant
Middle game, strong corps in Mediterranean
Late game, strong corps in Northern Europe

This would follow history to certain degree.

 

[AbsintheRed]

It is fun reading the thread again after such a long time.

It would be fun if the general dominance of corporations would follow a pattern of:

Early game, strong corps in the Levant
Middle game, strong corps in Mediterranean
Late game, strong corps in Northern Europe

This would follow history to certain degree.

It's set up this way to some degree.
Although it's somewhat more complex than that, each company has separate province preferences, which may change over time (e.g. the Teutons prefer Prussia and the Hospitallers prefer the Mediterranean Islands after a while / after certain events).
Also the time period when they are active is more or less given.

 

[ezzlar]

Yeah, I was just interested in not adding new companies that would break up the current ebb and flow. Or removing companies that are in line with this reasoning.

 

[AbsintheRed]

I might have gone a little overboard with company bonuses.
On the other hand, they are quite unique right now, should be fun if you have a couple in your cities.
ATM there are a couple somewhat redundant bonuses though. Which ones should definitely stay?

- Company HQs redesigned as generic buildings, as an indicator for company spread - they show up in the city while the company is present
- These temporary company buildings can get various bonuses, which are independent from the main company bonuses (based on number of resources available in your city)

- Bonuses for the current company buildings:
-- Hospitaller: +1 Great Prophet point, can turn 1 citizen to Priest, +2 XP for heavy infantry units, +1 health
-- Templar: +1 Great Prophet point, can turn 1 citizen to Priest, +2 XP for heavy infantry and heavy cavalry units
-- Teuton: +1 Great Prophet point, can turn 1 citizen to Priest, +2 XP for heavy infantry and heavy cavalry units
-- Hansa: +1 Great Merchant point, can turn 2 citizens to Merchant, builds water units 25% faster
-- Medici: +1 Great Merchant point, can turn 1 citizen to Merchant, +20% gold
-- Augsburg: +1 Great Merchant point, can turn 1 citizen to Merchant, +20% gold
-- St. George: +1 Great Merchant point, can turn 1 citizen to Merchant, +20% gold
-- Dragon: +2 XP for heavy infantry and heavy cavalry units, +10% military unit production, +20% great general emergence inside cultural borders
-- Calatrava: can turn 1 citizen to Priest, +2 XP for heavy infantry units, +10% military unit production, +10% great general emergence

- Resource and bonus updates to the companies:
-- Hospitaller: iron, olives, timber, copper, incense, +1 culture per resource consumed, generates relic in the city
-- Templar: wine, wheat, iron, horse, dye, +1 science per resource consumed, generates relic in the city
-- Teuton: salt, horse, iron, amber, barley, +1 production per resource consumed, generates relic in the city
-- Hansa: salt, fur, amber, timber, fish, +1 commerce and +0,5 food per resource consumed
-- Medici: marble, silk, gold, silver, dye, +2 gold and +1 science per resource consumed
-- Augsburg: gold, silver, copper, sulphur, coffee, +1 production and +1 gold per resource consumed
-- St. George: olives, silk, cotton, gold, timber, +1 gold and +2 espionage per resource consumed
-- Dragon: iron, wheat, honey, sulphur, wine, +0,5 production and +1 culture per resource consumed
-- Calatrava: sheep, wine, iron, olives, sugar, +0,5 production and +1 espionage per resource consumed

 

[The Turk]

Why is there no Genoan or Venetian trading companies? Them and other Italian city-states setup "factories" (storehouses) in many Mediterranean cities. It seems strange to have the "Order of the Dragon", but not have anything to simulate Mediterranean trade.

 

[merijn_v1]

Because those companies are already represented as fully playable civs. The Mediterranean trade is represented by their "colonization" and trade routes from and to them.

 

[The Turk]

What colonization? There should be some bonus to trade nonetheless.

 

[DC123456789]

Pretty much every city that Venice and Genoa control that aren't Venice and Genoa proper are their colonies.

 

[The Turk]

Pretty much every city that Venice and Genoa control that aren't Venice and Genoa proper are their colonies.

Meaning what? What is unique about those cities?

 

[DC123456789]

I'm not sure what you mean. Why does a city in a colony need to have something unique about it? They're overseas territories or settlements established by the mother country in some foreign land... and that's about all you need for a colony.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Would also love to hear back about company bonuses.
Nerfed most resource bonuses in the last commit, and I'm curious about the bonuses from company buildings too.
Do they feel more or less ok with the latest version?

 

[gilgames]

1 thing before the test, If a company spread to a city, make sure it doesnt leave it a; If i build company building/unit b; stays at least 10 turns. It used to happen that Hanestic get into somewhere I switch to Kontor (3 turns) and it leaves before i can finish. Its also frustrating if Teutons leave if I build their knights. I suggest to allow to leave if i'm done building that unit or building.

 

[Force44]

revision 1237 (16-3-2017)

All games were played on emperor on the 500 AD start without preplay but with judicious reloading.
I have been playing multiple games as the French, Arabs and Byzantines to see how the bonuses from the new company system pan out.

The first attempt I made to explore the new companies was as the Norwegians. I figured they would enjoy a lot of them with cities in Southern Italy in addition to the cities eligible for the Hanseatic league north of Paris. But with the early expansion into Sicily I collapsed due to instability.

As France I haven't enjoyed them yet. (Multiple/different attempts to get the first UHV take quite a lot of time, so I guess my feedback sofar is they receive them late.)

As Arabia I did not receive any of them so far. (but I guess that is how it was intended when playing as a muslim civ) But I did not find them overpowering in the hands of the other civs. As a small arabian civ (4 cities to cover the first UHV + 1 additional city in Egypt because it is just really productive) I still manage to outtech my opponents.

picture that spoils the locations under spoiler

Spoiler :

Raze Jerusalem when I flips back from the barbarian conquest to avoid crusades.

I also razed Tyr (when it flipped back) to reduce points I need to defend, but in retrospect this might have been unnecessary.


Just Alexandreia suffices for the first UHV, but Qulzum is a really productive (and for Egypt realtively healthy) city that gives early acces to marble.

As a money focussed Byzantium I enjoyed the new companies quite a lot.

I can now enjoy two mutual exclusive companies without a loss of efficiency. This is a big step up for me. Well done.


Knights Templar in Alexandreia, Antiocheia and Edessa
and Knights Hospitaller in Tyros and Hierosolyma

At one point I also enjoyed the Teutonic Order, but they left eventually. Still in the meantime I was able to produce two of arguably my strongest units (Teutonic Knights).

For Byzantium there is still a cost tied to the companies. Since catholicism is a heretic religion the purge of it provides a modicum of temporay instability and permanent damage to relations with my neighbours.

The companies give an incentive to colonize lands otherwise left uninvolved (go big). But for the UHV I figure this is not necessary at all (maybe even counterproductive).

Vassals on the other hand... (in this case Venice)
...come in really handy to get those nice resources without the otherwise accompanying instability.

Let me finish by stating that if this was the unnerfed version I did not find the companies overpowered at all.

(it is only five cities that receive bonuses from them, and some of these bonuses were even temporary. The bonus culture does not effect gameplay too much. The bonus science was in three of my 25 cities. Nice for sure but in no way competitive to either the rest of my economy or the economy of rival civs.)

After I checked out the impact of the Turkish spawn on the Byzantine civ I will update again to the latest SVN.

(I forsee no possible further obstacle in achieving the Byzantine UHV. The final Byz UHV does still feel a bit anticlimactic though. I got to collect all these taxes and am unable to spend the revenue.)

 

[DC123456789]

...is razing Jerusalem even allowed normally? If you're not allowed to raze it on conquest, you probably shouldn't be allowed to disband it when flipping either...

 

[AbsintheRed]

I suggest to allow to leave if i'm done building that unit or building.

That won't be changed. Would contradict many rules how units/buildings are produced in Civ.
Also that would result in many strange situations: for example what to do if a company is forced to leave (for example on state religion / civic change), and not simply decides to move to a better city?
Or even if it decides to move, should it appear in the new city as well, while you also keep it in your city until the produced unit/building is ready?
It would produce way too many ambiguous situations.

Also, if i'm not mistaken, you get gold compensation if you can no longer continue to build the item. But even if not, that's a risk you should take.
Btw, companies already stay for at least 9 turns under normal circumstances.

PS: Actually gold compensation is one of the most powerful things in Civ IV. I was very surprised when I first realized how far it can get you.
The so called "Wonder Bread" strategy is currently the most effective (by far) of the best deity players.
If anyone is interested or just want to level their game (there are a huge number of useful tips), read through this thread: https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...ace-strategies-from-a-10-year-veteran.574724/

 

[AbsintheRed]

@Force44:
Thanks for the detailed feedback!
Altough I have to admit, the very same was my first thought too

...is razing Jerusalem even allowed normally? If you're not allowed to raze it on conquest, you probably shouldn't be allowed to disband it when flipping either...

 

[Force44]

I put part of my reply under a spoiler because it entails an alternative strategy that imo is not as good as the intended strategy and should not be attempted at the first try(/ies).

Spoiler :

It is an alternative strategy. Probably not even as strong as keeping Jerusalem (in my opinion Jerusalem is about as good as Sebastiya and Bar as Sab combined). But it appears to work well enough. The idea is fighthing with fewer units under better circumstances. It adresses some of the issues with Arabian stability from some time back, but it sacrifices some of the original charm from the Arabian challenge.

The second part of the strategy is about as exploitative, if not more, than this first part. It entails giving away as much conquered cities as soon as possible to rival civs so they collaps under the instability and become viable targets themselves to expand islam to 35% of Europe asap.

If you want to make this strategy harder (perhaps even no longer viable, an ambition I personally would understand but regret) the simplest thing, imo, would be to make the spot of Sebastiya no longer viable as a capital that prevents crusades. Either through adding the plot to the province of Jerusalem or by having it inaccessable before the flip of the Levant to Arabia. (have the culture of Jerusalem cover the spot and/or some minor landscaping (eg. repavement of preexisting roadconnections))

now to get back on the topic of companies...

A muslim exclusive company that gives stability and perhaps a little science would be a boon to an early big Arabia. It could also help Cordoba expand islam into cities that lack it.

The (Nizari) Ismailis (better known as Hashshashin) come to mind with Fidai as a possible unit. Although a bonus to espionage seems more appropriate for this order.
proposed starting date: 750 AD

links to wiki articles:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassins
excerpt:

Assassins (Arabic: حشاشين‎‎ Hashshashin) is a name used to refer to the medieval Nizari Ismailis. Often described as a secret order led by a mysterious "Old Man of the Mountain", the Nizari Ismailis were an Islamic sect that formed in the late 11th century from a split within Ismailism – itself a branch of Shia Islam.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nizari
excerpt:

The followers of the young Imam Hadi who joined the military were trained as the Fidai.
...
The Fidai were feared as the Assassins, but in fact did not assassinate for payment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isma'il_ibn_Jafar
excerpt:

Ismāʿīl ibn Jaʿfar al-Mubārak (Arabic: إسماعيل بن جعفر‎‎; c. born: 719 AD, Medina - died circa 755 AD, Medina) was the eldest son of Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq. He is also known as Isma'il Al-Ãraj ibn Ja'far (اسماعيل الاعرج ابن جعفر الصادق). Following Ja'far's death, the Shia community split between those who would become the Twelver Shia and those who believed that the Imamate passed to Isma'il's son; the Isma'ili branch of Shia Islam is accordingly named for Isma'il.

 

[AbsintheRed]

@Force44:
You inspired both these changes with the feedback above
(well, city gifting restrictions were already planned in some form, but this motivated me to do it now)

- AI civs won't accept cities in less than core or historic territory if their stability is < 0
- Culture flipped cities don't have a raze option if they are a holy city or if your cultural percentage is very high (same as with conquered cities)

Hope you are not too sad that I crushed those exploits.
I myself very glad that those are gone

 

[Force44]

I had my fun when I had the chance.
I'm maybe just a little sad for the lack of choices for future players, but overall (and imho more importantly) I'm just really happy the game shapes up the way you envision it.
If I was wounded in any way, then the credit you gave me for inspiring you makes a pretty good bandaid.
Thanks.

 

[The Turk]

Please don't add the Nizari Ismailis as a company. I found that very strange in SOI. Make them rebels that spawn, but it is ridiculous to have them as a company.

What should be a company is the Karimi Family trade network, which is also in SOI. Except this time we can represent their full extent across the Mediterranean.

Also, unless I'm seeing this incorrectly, why are their Catholic military orders in Byzantine cities? What?