Comparison between Empires in Early Middle Ages

[Masada]

Srivijaya wasn't even an option guyz.

 

[Tee Kay]

Well you see, the simple fact of the matter is no one cares about Southeast Asia. Not even Southeast Asians.

 

[Lord Baal]

That's because nothing ever happened outside of Europe, the Middle East and China. Not until us white folk arrived to civilise you backwards savages.

 

[Masada]

There's no Indian options either

 

[General Pilates]

There's no Indian options either

What would be an option, though? The Guptas collapsed in the 550s in the wake of the attacks of the Huna. The only real empire in North India at this time was Harsha's but he was a bit of a less idealistic Alexander, and didn't leave much of a mark.

Once you get to the south the best empire I can think of in this time period is the Chalukya. However, the Chalukya had only two brief Indian summers where they controlled the entire Deccan and for the rest of the period they were restricted to one small area of it. Still, they made great cultural legacies in the form of perfecting the Dravidian sandstone work of Southern India and promoting a great cultural legacy. If any Indian empire will be on its list its them.

 

[Masada]

I think you refuted your own arguement.

 

[General Pilates]

I think you refuted your own arguement.

Not really. I'm simply offering the best choice but I'm not suggesting it should be on there and in my opinion isn't really worth it.

 

[Lord Baal]

There's no Indian options either

India isn't Europe, the Middle East or China. The only places in the world that mattered, until USA #1.

 

[Masada]

Not really. I'm simply offering the best choice but I'm not suggesting it should be on there and in my opinion isn't really worth it.

Eh, I don't think the Franks, Eastern Romans or the Abbasid Caliphate should be on there. Then again, I'm not a Eurocentrist.

 

[General Pilates]

Eh, I don't think the Franks, Eastern Romans or the Abbasid Caliphate should be on there. Then again, I'm not a Eurocentrist.

Well, There's a difference between being a Eurocentrist and accepting that some empires swayed the way we think today more than others. What alternatives would you offer? Consider the immense gains in science and literature, the countless copying down of Greek and Roman works done by both the Ummayads and Abbasids. Besides Tang China and the aforementioned Indian states, what is really there deserving of a spot?

 

[Masada]

There's a difference between being a Eurocentrist and accepting that some empires swayed the way we think today more than others.

So we're not looking at these states on their own merits but on the merits of what subsequent generations did with their (supposed*) cultural legacies...?

Consider the immense gains in science and literature, the countless copying down of Greek and Roman works done by both the Ummayads and Abbasids.

I'm not sure there were immense gains in science or literature. And even were there I'm not sure what immense gains would be like, seem like or show up in the historical record like. So I suppose the claim should be put in relation to some other period perhaps.

Besides Tang China and the aforementioned Indian states, what is really there deserving of a spot?

I've said it about a dozen times in a half dozen languages: Srivijaya. I'll make the case that it transmitted Buddhist works from India to China and was a major site of Buddhist learning, so much so, that Indian monks seem to have made a point to go to Srivijaya to copy down Buddhist tracts that weren't available on the mainland. It was also fabulously rich and had a profound religious and cultural influence on the whole of the Malay archipelago. While I'm at it I could put down the Khmer for their religious and cultural influence on well themselves, the Tai and Burmans. Much as I dislike the Khmer for stealing ma research dollars, I can at least respect them for being hugely influential across the region.

* Because I'm unhappy with the chain of transmission and subsequent generations understanding of what it is they were looking at.

 

[Huayna Capac357]

This is a Civilization gaming forum, which means it has an absurdly high proportion of Byzies.

Yeah...why is that?

Also, @Masada: Which Indian states would you include?

EDIT: As far as Americas and Africa go (which have been ignored), at least Moche, Wari, Ghana, and Axum deserve a spot, as well as possibly Tiwanaku and Nazca.

 

[General Pilates]

So we're not looking at these states on their own merits but on the merits of what subsequent generations did with their (supposed*) cultural legacies...?

We should be looking at them through several angles. While it is of course good to look at these states through a military and political angles the culture of the state should be observed as well. Even taking these away the military power of the Byzantines, the Commercial prowess and administrative brilliance of the Arabs, and the political power the Franks held in Europe still hold large arguments for their inclusion. I understand the complaining about Eurocentrism, and it has merit, but taking these away altogether is absurd.

I'm not sure there were immense gains in science or literature. And even were there I'm not sure what immense gains would be like, seem like or show up in the historical record like. So I suppose the claim should be put in relation to some other period perhaps.

Algebra, scientific method, Trigonometry, the transmission of classical learning to the rest of Europe through Spain(As evidenced by the use of Spanish translations of the Bible from Greek in Italy), large advances in Astronomical thinking. I could go on, of course. While most of Europe was in a technological stasis during the early middle ages the Arabs were making great strides in every direction. There was even a paper factory in Baghdad after the Battle of Talas.

I've said it about a dozen times in a half dozen languages: Srivijaya. I'll make the case that it transmitted Buddhist works from India to China and was a major site of Buddhist learning, so much so, that Indian monks seem to have made a point to go to Srivijaya to copy down Buddhist tracts that weren't available on the mainland. It was also fabulously rich and had a profound religious and cultural influence on the whole of the Malay archipelago. While I'm at it I could put down the Khmer for their religious and cultural influence on well themselves, the Tai and Burmans. Much as I dislike the Khmer for stealing ma research dollars, I can at least respect them for being hugely influential across the region.

Srivijaya is a good choice and I would lobby for it to be included in the poll. It was a very powerful polity in Southeast Asia and its cultural influence as well as commercial power cannot be denied.

Axum by this time, had unfortunately, declined, for several reasons. Not only did the Arab conquests isolate it from Indian sea trade, but climate change also caused a loss of fertility and caused people to move further inland. In Africa, Ghana, as Huayna said, is a good choice.

 

[Dachs]

Yeah...why is that?

"Everybody who doesn't like the Byzantine Empire feeling victimized for no real reason". Same thing with atheists/various varieties of Christian/Jews/Muslims/everybody else. It's the internet, somebody has to feel like everybody's against them, regardless of whether it's true or not.

 

[Lord Baal]

"Everybody who doesn't like the Byzantine Empire feeling victimized for no real reason". Same thing with atheists/various varieties of Christian/Jews/Muslims/everybody else. It's the internet, somebody has to feel like everybody's against them, regardless of whether it's true or not.

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean everyone ISN'T out to get you, Dachs.

 

[Dachs]

Dude, I don't like the Byzantine Empire and I'm pretty sure I'm on record here on CFC as saying that I can't stand Greeks. The fact that I am relatively well versed in Greek history and like some figures of Greek history doesn't I have to like them.

 

[J. pride]

This Thread is a bit old but i couldnt help but popular the Byzantines are; imo the Abbasids and the Tangs were were more advanced and influential empires of the era.

Then again what does the author mean by Which empire will you support the most?. Is it based on which empire was the best or the one that u have fondness for?

 

[Tee Kay]

CFC is a well-known Byzies haunt.

 

[Ajidica]

Hey, we aren't as bad as TWC, where they have many Byzantinophiles that spend their time complaining how the Byzantine state was so much more powerful then the mod depicted while proceeding to annoy every one of those very touchy southern european ethnic groups, sparking off the Internet Balkan Wars.

 

[Dachs]

I'm pretty sure that, objectively speaking, the Byzantine state was the most interesting of the ones listed, even if it sucked. Greek nationalism or philhellenism or whatever ain't got anything to do with it.

Disclaimer: I did not vote in this Pole.