Competing VC's

[r_rolo1]

Ok, got it ( sugestion: it would be better to add a official roster from time to time ) . Will play in the weekend .

The land could had been better :/ Well, let's see what can be done

 

[Habitus]

Yup I'm in, Teal will also block off the land north of it, its not very good land but might find some use for it, esp with events on.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I took a look at the saved game.

Since we appear to have gone Agriculture -> Bronze Working, our Worker has Farmed the Corn and is now Farming a Flood Plains square. That's fine, but we'll eventually want to build Cottages on at least the other 2 Flood Plains, if not all 3 of them.

The Flood Plains Cottages could be worked by either the capital or City 2 pre-Bureaucracy.

So, once the Worker is done Farming a Flood Plain and while we wait for Pottery to come in, we might as well build Mines on our two Grassland Hills squares.

Depending upon when you want the Forest Chop from the northern Grassland Hills square, you can decide upon the order of which Hills square to Mine first. I would imagine, though, that we are building Warriors for the purpose of growing the City instead of for the purpose of completing Warriors quickly, so we probably can Mine the southern unforested Hills square before Mining the northern Forested Hills square. I also imagine that when the Chop comes in, we'll want to dump it into a Settler, which may just be built for 1 turn if you are busy trying to grow the City before seriously trying to complete the Settler.

If your micro is awesome, you could complete Bronze Working to within 1 turn of completion and then start work on The Wheel. When the Worker moves onto the Grassland Hills Forest square, you can switch back to Bronze Working to complete that tech. This way, we'll delay our neighbour's tendency to research Bronze Working by a tiny bit, which may or may not help us in terms of facing less Axemen and Spearmen from AIs or the Barbs, due to that tech being learned later by the AIs (and, by extension, learned later by the Barbs).

As for what else to do with the Worker while you wait for Pottery to come in, there is a Forest that is 1E of the capital that is "Forest locked." Such a Forest cannot regrow and it also blocks other Forests from growing. So, it is a good candidate to Chop (and then leave empty--i.e. no Road, no Cottage, no Farm, etc) with the hopes of that Forest regrowing--since 3 Forests surround that square, it has a decent chance of regrowing at some point during the game.

If you still have Worker actions remaining, you could also build a Road towards City 2 in the west. Minimally, we will want a Road on the western-most of the three Flood Plains squares, to connect-up the two Cities in terms of Domestic Trade Routes, but fully completing the Road between the two Cities is not necessarily a bad thing, either, for future mobility.


EDIT: Once our victory conditions start diverging, I'll probably give less suggestions, but for the early game, I don't see what it harms.

 

[mystyfly]

I must say I see no point whatsoever to discuss dotmaps now. We have far too few knowledge of the map, not even copper or horse. These discussions don't help imo. Once we get close to completing a settler and have at least BW we can do so.

The land isn't hot, agreed, especially the jungle isn't cool. OTOH the layout isn't bad, we have our back safed by coast so less pressure from AI rex, border tension, etc.

Ag-BW is fine. With copper in reach, wheel-pottery-writing, without it maybe slot in AH.

Looks to me like we'll have a fast teching game with those AIs...

 

[shyuhe]

I don't think the tech pace will be that fast if the AI all pick up different religions. They're all kind of fanatical, except Willem.

 

[r_rolo1]

Ok, I've looked at the save and I think we need to discuss some stuff, regardless of what VC we are aiming :

- First, if we will go specs or cottages. This is not critical by itself,but it obviously will influence the tech path

- Second, do we want to try any early wonder? I'm asking this because we have land that IMHO is more prone to specs than to cottages ( and this regardless of VC concerns : our food is pretty lumped and surronded by crappy tiles ) and this works far more smoothly with the Mids ( BTW we have a stone source to the SW ). The AI that we met so far are not Ind, so we would probably be able to do the Mids with little effort with some chopping.

Anyway, I think that the tech path to my set will be without much of discussion: BW ( revolt to slavery when needed )->Wheel ( to get to Pottery ASAP ). Not sure if there is any reason to change queue in my set as i plan to work only food tiles in the set to grow the city...

 

[Dhoomstriker]

- First, if we will go specs or cottages. This is not critical by itself,but it obviously will influence the tech path

Speciliasts are best when you have a FEW very-high-Food-based squares PER CITY. Here, we have several low-Food-based squares (such as multiple Flood Plains squares, a Sheep, and at most ONE 6-Food square per City.

Cottages for the Flood Plains (finish the Farm on one of them for now, though, so that we'll have an improved square to work) would be a minimum suggestion, but I think that it makes sense to Cottage all of the overlap squares between the capital and Teal City location. Additional Cottages would depend upon a player's chosen Victory Condition, so I don't see a reason to explicitly agree/disagree on whether or where to build additional Cottages beyond these ones.

- Second, do we want to try any early wonder?

I think that this decision is starting to get a little bit too much down the Specific VC paths. I think that we should leave this decision open to each player, rather than trying to decide and then getting mad at someone who played differently than the group's decision... it would not be fair to get mad at them, because they'd just be doing what they thought was right for their chosen VC.

I'm asking this because we have land that IMHO is more prone to specs than to cottages ( and this regardless of VC concerns : our food is pretty lumped and surronded by crappy tiles ) and this works far more smoothly with the Mids ( BTW we have a stone source to the SW ).

I don't really see that. For me, I'd like to see at a minimum two 5-Food squares to call a City anything more than a "casual, generate your first or second Great Person" type of a Specialist factory.

It has been debated on the forums, but consensus seems to be that early Specialists are best for Great People and not for their raw output. For example, working even an unimproved Grassland = 2 Food + 1 Hammer = 3 basic inputs. Working 1 Scientist = 3 Flasks = 3 basic inputs. They are the same when you ignore the Great People Points, as you must do in a City with few Specialsits that won't be generating one of your first couple of Great People.

Representation has its cost in terms of Hammers, in that every Flask that you earn came at the cost of a Hammer that went into The Pyramids.

Since we're talking about early-game Hammers versus mid-game Flasks, it's not even a 1-to-1 ratio and The Pyramids therefore are an incredibly huge investment, for any Victory Condition.

Since I don't see us being able to hire more than roughly 3 Scientists per City on the low Food that we have, I do not see going for Representation as a "clear choice."

That said, if someone thinks that buiding The Pyramids will better support their Victory Condition, they are free to attempt to build that Wonder. That person may end up sinking our ship before it even gets sailing, but it is their choice to attempt. I do not, think, however, that there is a compelling enough case for us to agree upon going after that Wonder and therefore I would leave it up to each individual player to decide if they wanted to make "The Pyramids" their chosen build item.

Not sure if there is any reason to change queue in my set as i plan to work only food tiles in the set to grow the city...

I'm not sure what build items are queued-up, but just to clarify, you are not supposed to change the build item that is currently being built--however, feel free to change the build items in the queue that come after the current build item.

 

[shyuhe]

I wouldn't be surprised to see people bulldozing cottages I'll leave it at that.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Maybe we should have a rule against bulldozing Cottages. I mean, we have a rule against bulldozing citizens (light usage of Whipping and Drafting) and rules against build-item-churn and tech-churn.

Those are the one improvement type that really can't be fairly replaced and that fact can be easily abused. For other improvements, if someone wants to replace a Farm with a Workshop, that effort can be undone by building a Farm over top of a Workshop, but there is no "undoing" the bulldozing of a grown Cottage.

To prevent such a rule from being silly in the case where someone accidentally built too many Cottages that won't get worked, how about we say that:
Cottages can be bulldozed but Hamlets, Villages, and Towns cannot be bulldozed/destroyed/removed?

 

[r_rolo1]

Speciliasts are best when you have a FEW very-high-Food-based squares PER CITY. Here, we have several low-Food-based squares (such as multiple Flood Plains squares, a Sheep, and at most ONE 6-Food square per City.

Cottages for the Flood Plains (finish the Farm on one of them for now, though, so that we'll have an improved square to work) would be a minimum suggestion, but I think that it makes sense to Cottage all of the overlap squares between the capital and Teal City location. Additional Cottages would depend upon a player's chosen Victory Condition, so I don't see a reason to explicitly agree/disagree on whether or where to build additional Cottages beyond these ones.

I don't see any reason to assume ANY cottage in this game ( or in any other , but that is another point )... in fact if you want to overlap the FP between the cap and a eventual city to the west, that is even more of a reason to not make cottages there, due to the general lack of food in the starting area except for the cap ( and even the cap is not THAT food rich ) atleast until we can chain irrigate...

OTOH all of the city spots sugested except the one that is to share the FP with the cap has only one food resource. And that one has sheep besides the FP ( that will go sooner or later to the cap, especially if we adopt Bureau ). That is not cottage friendly enviroment by any definition of the word.

I think that this decision is starting to get a little bit too much down the Specific VC paths. I think that we should leave this decision open to each player, rather than trying to decide and then getting mad at someone who played differently than the group's decision... it would not be fair to get mad at them, because they'd just be doing what they thought was right for their chosen VC.

No it isn't. In fact is a pretty neutral decision regarding how to generate science and I really don't see how anyone would benefit or not from it in terms of VC ( no VC has any spec or cottage pendor IMHO ... even culture, that would proably be the one that wins more with specs, can go that way via culture slider or even via espionage madness ). The only reason that i brought it to discussion is because of both being a decision that needs a plan that passes more than one turnset and of being a neutral issue.

I don't really see that. For me, I'd like to see at a minimum two 5-Food squares to call a City anything more than a "casual, generate your first or second Great Person" type of a Specialist factory.

It has been debated on the forums, but consensus seems to be that early Specialists are best for Great People and not for their raw output. For example, working even an unimproved Grassland = 2 Food + 1 Hammer = 3 basic inputs. Working 1 Scientist = 3 Flasks = 3 basic inputs. They are the same when you ignore the Great People Points, as you must do in a City with few Specialsits that won't be generating one of your first couple of Great People.

Representation has its cost in terms of Hammers, in that every Flask that you earn came at the cost of a Hammer that went into The Pyramids.

Since we're talking about early-game Hammers versus mid-game Flasks, it's not even a 1-to-1 ratio and The Pyramids therefore are an incredibly huge investment, for any Victory Condition.

Since I don't see us being able to hire more than roughly 3 Scientists per City on the low Food that we have, I do not see going for Representation as a "clear choice."

That said, if someone thinks that buiding The Pyramids will better support their Victory Condition, they are free to attempt to build that Wonder. That person may end up sinking our ship before it even gets sailing, but it is their choice to attempt. I do not, think, however, that there is a compelling enough case for us to agree upon going after that Wonder and therefore I would leave it up to each individual player to decide if they wanted to make "The Pyramids" their chosen build item.

Ok, de gustibus ... I'm not a fan of pure SE either but you are making a big group of assumptions ... and you are quite conveniently forgetting that it is also a consensus in the forums that specs win to cottages and hamlets in pure output and only after that is that the cottage line wins over win over ( oh and grassland is simply 2 F , a thing that might be confusing your calcs ). But this is probably not the best place for a SE-CE discussion ... but believe me, it is not even dificult to go space with a SE. Just see this SG ( some players here migth recognize it )

My point was, that and IMHO SE and CE are both valid aproaches in here ( and IMHO early SE is the way to go , atleast until we can grap that grass downthere ). OFC that if we decide to go SE, going Mids is much more worthwhile than if you think cottages and that is why I brought it to discussion. And my point was not only about Mids, but about every early wonder we might want, since, as I said, until now there is no Ind civ around. Say, oracle, henge ...

I'm not sure what build items are queued-up, but just to clarify, you are not supposed to change the build item that is currently being built--however, feel free to change the build items in the queue that come after the current build item.

I have a warrior queued that will take 10 turns to build at the current hammer output. As I don't intend to do any change in that regard, I'll most likely will only put anything in queue in the last turn of my set

 

[r_rolo1]

Oh, that cottage bulldozing can definitely become a issue if things go south in htere we will do worse than the AI in managing workers :/

Cottage->Hamlet is fairly easy to get especially after Emancipation, so putting the break between Hamlets and villages IMHO would make more sense...

In the end that is just one more argument favouring SE

 

[shyuhe]

I'd be on board with going with an SE plan using the mids. I doubt anyone would bulldoze towns but I can see lesser "cottages" getting bulldozed. Just think of our use of workers as ... sub optimal Kind of like how the AI replaces towns with workshops during war

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I'd be on board with going with an SE plan using the mids.

Are we going to settle City #2 so as secure the Stone? If yes, where would it go? I don't really see a good location, unless you are okay to get Stone in the third ring instead of the fat cross, in which case we could settle on the Desert square 1W of the Ivory.

We'd have to give up having an early Trade Route.


I'm not sold on building The Pyramids, but like I said, if someone wants to build them on their turnset, they are free to do so. Just don't rely on me to be that person!

so putting the break between Hamlets and villages IMHO would make more sense...

I would be fine with that. Basically, as you say, we don't necessarily have to build Cottages, but if the investment is made, we should stick with said investment by putting a rule against tearing-up heavily-invested-in Cottages. So, yes, I think then that we should put a rule in place where we cannot bulldoze Villages or Towns.


Even for Specialists, I still think that Pottery is a wise move, as it also unlocks Granaries... which are whip-efficiency-enablers, and a Specialists game generally means that you should do a reasonable amount of whipping.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

Oh, that cottage bulldozing can definitely become a issue if things go south in htere we will do worse than the AI in managing workers :/

Easy, forbid cottages (subscribed)

 

[r_rolo1]

Well, the set was quite calm ...

First I gave a look to the area south of us ... it looks a solid city site IMHO

Spoiler :

Soon enough we hit BW. Wheel was slotted next:

Spoiler :

I haven't revolted to Slavery simply because we don't need it. That is the major blessing of being Spi , right ?

We met other civ. Another not INd leader BTW

Spoiler :

All the set was passed making farms in the FP and working those tiles to prop the pop up. With only one hammer/turn, the warrior slotted by the previous player ended in t10 of the set ( the end of it ):

Spoiler :

I slotted another warrior to get a escort to the settler to be done ASAP ( I sugest whipping it @ 6 pop ). At current hammer/turn rate, it will take 15 turns to be built, but it can be done in 3 with minimal MM.

Some end of set screens:

Spoiler :

I'm for warrior->Settler ( whip @ 6 pop ) and settling near that corn + double phant area. Techwise ... pottery ?

>>Save here<<​

 

[Habitus]

On the Plains Hill for that site? For Corn+Grassland Hill+Ivory all within initial 9?

 

[r_rolo1]

That is probably the best spot in that area ... atleast for what we see.

 

[Habitus]

Yeah and after IW, with 2 ivory, 3 grass hills supported by the corn its a decent production site. Iron or Horses poping within the BFC would be the icing on the cake For the warrior scouting i'd send it looping round the peaks and back towards the southern fish to see if anything round there is worth settling, and send the next warrior to spawn bust the north (should only take a single warrior to cover that area) and our sight from borders should cover East and West after another border pop

Other sites for later (ie once good sites gone) are 1E of Sheep, not a great site but can help work Cottages on the Flood Plains as needed, has the ivory + 2 grass + 1 plain hills for production. Cows or 1W of cows for Moai depending on if we want the food off fish or hammers off cows more.

 

[shyuhe]

Roster for first round:

shyuhe (played)
Rolo (played)
mysty (UP)
Dhoom (on deck)
Habitus

Also, Rolo - rounds are 15 turns each (to make sure each player has the opportunity to revolt twice per set). So you can play another 5 turns if you want.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

On the Plains Hill for that site? For Corn+Grassland Hill+Ivory all within initial 9?

That's a Dry Corn (only 5 Food), far from our capital, and we haven't been building a Road towards there. It certainly wouldn't be my choice for a City #2 (others are free to differ) but I could see it being City #3.


Are we still planning for The Pyramids? If yes, we'll want to settle a City close enough to the Stone, such that the Stone is at least within our 3rd ring of Culture.

The best spots that I see are:
a) what I suggested earlier, settling on the Desert square 1W of the Plains Ivory and SW + S of the Plains Sheep
b) On a Plains square that is the only square which gets both the Dry Corn and the Stone within its fat cross


I see us going for The Pyramids in only a few scenarios here:
i. City #2 is settled at location a)
ii. City #2 is settled at location b)
iii. City #2 is settled in a location that does not steal the Dry Corn (such as in the Teal City location) AND City #3 is settled at location b)


So, which shall it be? One of those options or shall we give up on building The Pyramids? Does someone REALLY want to try to build The Pyramids WITHOUT access to Stone?

Easy, forbid cottages (subscribed)

Fairness in the rules while considering the various Victory Conditions is a more important consideration than having "easy" rules (although having both is the ideal).

I would much rather prefer to forbid the bulldozing/pillaging/destruction of Villages and Towns. We might not build any Cottages, but I'd rather not prevent players from building Cottages. I'd also rather prevent us from doing intentionally stupid things, like paving-over matured Cottages, so I think that Rolo's suggestion of not paving over Villages and Towns is the best compromise.

Don't forget that we, on average, each only get about 1/5th of the normal number of Great People that we might get in a game, since the other Great People will likely be used for competing goals that do not always align and, for some Victory Conditions, may not align at all. So, matured Cottages could play a heavy role depending upon one's Victory Condition.

I have a warrior queued that will take 10 turns to build at the current hammer output. As I don't intend to do any change in that regard, I'll most likely will only put anything in queue in the last turn of my set

the warrior slotted by the previous player ended in t10 of the set

Okay, so we have met with an exception case... if a player (in this case, r_rolo1) has ended their turn with a build item selected that has no Hammers in it, do we need to complete that build item or are we free to change it? I am okay with either way, as long as we consistently follow the same practice througout the game. It might not appear to matter now, but when we have 10+ Cities, we will likely face this situation again.