Confucianism, a Religion or Philosiphy?

[allunderheaven]

From Wikipedia

Generally speaking, Confucianism is not considered a religion by Chinese or other East Asian people. Part of this attitude may be explained by the stigma placed on many "religions" as being superstitious, illogical, or unable to deal with modernity. Many Buddhists state that Buddhism is not a religion, but a philosophy, and this is partially a reaction to negative popular views of religion. Similarly, Confucians maintain that Confucianism is not a religion, but rather a moral code or philosophic world view.

The question of whether Confucianism is a religion, or otherwise, is ultimately a definitional problem. If the definition used is worship of supernatural entities, the answer may be that Confucianism is not a religion. If, on the other hand, a religion is defined as (for example) a belief system that includes moral stances, guides for daily life, systematic views of humanity and its place in the universe, etc., then Confucianism most definitely qualifies. As with many such important concepts, the definition of religion is quite contentious. Herbert Fingarette's Confucius: The Secular as Sacred is a well-known treatment of this issue.

I know that scholars in Ancient China even worshipped Confucius and that students bowed to a painting of him in classrooms. Although Confucius had not intended to found a religion, some people still worship him.

EDIT: oops! spelled philosophy wrong

 

[Knight-Dragon]

We Chinese practise ancestor worship. Some of our most famous people are deitified and worshipped, as a form of it. Like the Yellow Emperor, the Song general Yue Fei, and the Ming admiral Zheng He. And even a literature character, Sun Wukong, the monkey god in Journey to the West.

Much the same for Confucius IMO.

A Chinese can practise Confucianism, Buddhism, Daoism, ancestor worship all at the same time.

Confucianism is definitely not a religion since there're no gods in it, nor a specific belief system that can be termed religious. It's merely a stance, on how society shld be ordered and maintained, relationships betw persons and duties of one to another etc.

 

[Plotinus]

Whether something is a religion or not has got nothing to do with whether it's got gods. Theravada Buddhism doesn't have any gods but it's uncontroversially a religion.

A religion is a very complex social phenomenon involving many different elements. Typically, we call something a religion if it has many or most of these elements, rather that if it has all of them; this is why there is disagreement over those social phenomena which have some of them. These elements include (in no particular order):

A belief in the supernatural.
A moral code.
A social organisation.
A system of doctrine.
Authoritative teaching figures.
Liturgy.
Rituals.
Monasticism.
Individual discipline.

And so on. None of these is found in every phenomenon that is considered a "religion". You can certainly find examples of phenomena that are generally accepted as "religions" that lack some of these, although you won't find any that lack all of them. So what you need to do is consider which of these features, or other ones, Confucianism has, rather than which ones it lacks, and then consider whether it's useful to call it a "religion" or not. For example, the Analects frequently exhort readers to follow "the rites". That sounds pretty religious to me.

As for whether it's a "philosophy", I have to say that I consider Confucius to be by far the most over-rated "philosopher" I've ever encountered. From a philosophical point of view, the Analects seem to me almost entirely worthless; the bourgeois outlook on life they embody may be a "stance" as K-D puts it, but it's not philosophy. It's a series of authoritative assertions, with no argument or appeal to reason.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

For example, the Analects frequently exhort readers to follow "the rites". That sounds pretty religious to me.

The rites I believe refer to traditional Chinese ancestor worship and the usual popular folklore 'religion'. Something that was already there, before Confucius came along.

I think Confucius himself made references to the Heaven or Chinese gods of his era - he certainly never claim to receive instruction from them to found a religion.

As for whether it's a "philosophy", I have to say that I consider Confucius to be by far the most over-rated "philosopher" I've ever encountered. From a philosophical point of view, the Analects seem to me almost entirely worthless; the bourgeois outlook on life they embody may be a "stance" as K-D puts it, but it's not philosophy. It's a series of authoritative assertions, with no argument or appeal to reason.

Yup. Though as a whole, you probably have to consider how much Confucianism itself has evolved over the long centuries, esp during the Song era.

In any case, I have always thought of it as pretty much just a guideline on how to order society.

But I don't claim to know how much about the subject, so...

 

[Tee Kay]

Religions are philosophies, in a sense.

With Confucianism, it's so rooted into traditional Chinese beliefs that it seemed like a religion now, but it's really more like a code of conduct for everyday life and government.

 

[Mirc]

I don't know. Actually, I asked this question myself a number of times. But I'm eager to know more about the subject.

 

[Plotinus]

The rites I believe refer to traditional Chinese ancestor worship and the usual popular folklore 'religion'. Something that was already there, before Confucius came along.

I think Confucius himself made references to the Heaven or Chinese gods of his era - he certainly never claim to receive instruction from them to found a religion.

Certainly, but then, does it matter? The fact that the rites existed before Confucius doesn't seem very relevant to me. For example, Christians worship God, but Jesus didn't invent that - the Jews had been doing so for a fair while already. All new religions incorporate elements of older ones. In this case, if we were inclined to classify Confucianism as a religion, we'd simply say that it involves ancestor rites which predate Confucius. Similarly, Confucius may not have claimed divine inspiration, but then that's not necessary for a religion either; the Buddha didn't claim divine inspiration when he found enlightenment, he just found it by thinking hard under a tree.

The upshot of all this is of course that there's no right or wrong answer. Because there is no single criterion that defines whether something is a religion or not, you can't really be "right" or "wrong" in calling something a religion. It's just a matter of whether it's useful to you to do so or not - rather like "games" (as is well known, there is no single feature which all "games" have, making the word very hard to define accurately). So if it pleases you to think of Confucianism as a religion, then do so; and if it doesn't, then don't. You won't be right or wrong either way.

 

[Traitorfish]

From what I understand, Confucianism is a philosophy, but one which endorses a symbolic- if not actual- ancestor worship, as a sign of respect for traditions and elders. It's arguable that the "worship" of Confucius is merely an example of that, a symbol of respect for Confucian tradition.
Besides, it's important to remember that Confucianism in China was never really pure, always being blended with elements of other religous traditions, particularly the pre-Confucian, more literal form of ancestor worship.

But that's just how I understand it- if anyone wants to disagree, feel free. I'm certainly not going to claim much expertise on the issue, especially when I'm posting directly below a Theology student...

 

[allunderheaven]

Confucius had not intended to found a religion although his teachings eventually evolved into some kind of religion. A religion does not have to include a god or gods but instead a moral code as Confucius had taught. Ancestor worship had existed years before Confucius and was continually practiced. I think there are 2 kinds of Confucianism- a religion, and a philosophy.

 

[ohcrapitsnico]

Well, you need to consider that the western concept of religion is very different than the east. You can't expect the east to develop along the same lines as the west. The abrahamic religions are so different from the "religions" of east asia. Though they fall under the religion category of civilization more or less when you think of abrahamic religions, stuff like confucianism ain't a religion. Hell look at shintoism, belief/faith isn't as important as good practice of ritual.

 

[allunderheaven]

I'm thinking that Confucianism shouldn't have been one of the religions included with Civ 4, what would have been a better choice?

 

[civverguy]

I'm thinking that Confucianism shouldn't have been one of the religions included with Civ 4, what would have been a better choice?

Zoroastrianism or Sikhism but the tech that discovers those would be different (considering that they're both monotheistic)

 

[GenMarshall]

I see it as a Moralistic Philosophy.

 

[warpus]

IMO "religion" is such a vague term that you could easily fit Confucianism inside it.

 

[Swedishguy]

This poll will close on Jan 12, 2008 at 07:54 AM

Why, allunderheaven, why?!

 

[PimpyMicPimp]

Is their really that much of a difference between Religion and Philosophy? Religion seems like a kind of Philosophy to me, but than again, I'm not Religious.

 

[Saim]

A belief in the supernatural.
A moral code.
A social organisation.
A system of doctrine.
Authoritative teaching figures.
Liturgy.
Rituals.
Monasticism.
Individual discipline.

As far as I know:

1. Dunno
2. Yes
3. Yes
4. Yes
5. Dunno
6. Dunno
7. Yes
8. No
9. Yes

Does Confucianism have the supernatural, authoritative teaching figures and liturgy?

I think 1. Is required for a religion, but it also needs a few of the others. So spiritualism, deism, etc. don't count as religions. On the other hand, some philosophies might fill in a few of the 9 but not the first, and then aren't religions.

Also some other common traits of religion are mythology, demons, gods and cosmology.

Is their really that much of a difference between Religion and Philosophy? Religion seems like a kind of Philosophy to me, but than again, I'm not Religious.

Usually I think of religion as a kind of ideology, philosophy another.