Constitution Discussion. Article C-E

[greekguy]

Without commenting on the specifics of your proposal, I wish to draw attention to a huge, and incorrect assumption you have made. "Thus, they will have to give some of their duties to their deputy" Full context is quoted.

Sorry, but that will not happen. Sure, some leaders will delegate based on the time, inclination and personal approach. Others have the time, the inclination and the desire to run things on their own. Assumptions, like what you are making, are dangerous when based on some facts, and even more so when proved incorrect in the past.

-- Ravensfire

sorry about the assumption, i changed the wording in my post.

 

[ravensfire]

sorry about the assumption, i changed the wording in my post.

No problem - assumptions often cause problems, and I knew that some people wouldn't follow your premise.

-- Ravensfire

 

[GenMarshall]

Im not going to bother expressing my opinions on this since all of you know already that I perfer the traditional/Strider's consitution .

 

[DaveShack]

Mock Poll:

Do you approve of the attached legislation amending Article D and Article E, and the provisions for its activation?

Yes
No
Abstain
This poll is public and will be open for n days. (not sure how many n should be, the Judiciary should fill it in.)

Old text. Sections unaffected are indicated by ellipses (. . .)

Article D.  The Strategic Branch consists of the President, the Vice 
            President, and the Consuls. The Consuls, as listed below, 
            are in tasked with deciding on the broader picture of how 
            Fanatannia will operate.
            
. . .  section 1-2 unaffected

            3.  Consul for Domestic Policy - Oversees long term 
                settlement, long term worker plans, and long term city 
                development objectives. Plans government switches.

. . .  remainder of Article D unaffected

Article E.  The Tactical Branch consists of the the officials in charge 
            of micromanagement of the game, within the boundaries of 
            the Strategic Branch's policy. The Tactical Branch consists 
            of the officials below.

. . .  section 1-3 unaffected

            4.  Director of Expansion - Decides on where to settle with 
                settlers. The Director of Expansion also oversees the 
                creation of provincal boundaries. Controls movement of 
                settlers and settler carrying transports.

. . .  remainder of Article E unaffected

New text, article E

Article D.  The Strategic Branch consists of the President, the Vice 
            President, and the Consuls. The Consuls, as listed below, 
            are in tasked with deciding on the broader picture of how 
            Fanatannia will operate.

. . .  Sections 1-2 unaffected

            3.  Consul for Domestic Policy - Oversees long term 
                settlement, long term worker plans, and long term city 
                development objectives. Plans government switches.
                Decides on where to settle with 
                settlers. Oversees the  
                creation of provincal boundaries. Controls movement of 
                settlers and settler carrying transports.


. . . Remainder of article D unaffected

Article E.  The Tactical Branch consists of the the officials in charge 
            of micromanagement of the game, within the boundaries of 
            the Strategic Branch's policy. The Tactical Branch consists 
            of the officials below.

. . .  Sections 1-3 unaffected
Section 4 deleted, section 5 renumbered to 4

            4.  Governors - Each Governor shall determine any policies 
                and procedures needed to carry out their duties. 
                Governors are responsible for the care, management, 
                use of the cities, and use of lands of a province 
                through the setting of build queues, allocation of 
                laborers on tiles, population rushes and drafting of 
                citizen soldiers.

This amendment will take effect the beginning of the term after its ratification, and shall be implemented in the election cycle of said term by removing the office of Director of Expansion from the nomination and election process for that term. The Director of Expansion in office for the term when this amendment is ratified shall continue in office for the remainder of the term.

24 hours for any comments on substantial changes specific to this part of the proposal.

 

[ravensfire]

Nice changes, DS.

-- Ravensfire

 

[LeeT911]

I approve of the changes proposed.

However I still think R&T has no real power and should be reworked. Also, mad-bax has decided to resign, indicating that the position of External Consul might need some fixing as well.

 

[MOTH]

I nTH the above changes. I think this is the way we should go about changes. Propose small digestible chunks and poll them and get them out of the way.

I think the next thing to go should be the Director of Infrastructure with allocation of workers being given to Domestic and worker orders being given to the Governors.

 

[Provolution]

This still is not good enough, since we need to work in all shortcomings from the various Judicial Reviews, and to clearly differentiate powers and functions. That Mad Bax decided to resign is testament to that problem. I still also vouch for transferring Culture with something else, like science, and transferring trade to Foreign Affairs. I am still for dividing the all-powerful finance function from Domestic and keeping military separate.
Vice President could be an all over back up for the other deputies.
People should really consider the loss of activity as a delay of this reform is taking place to the last bitter minute.

The problem with small "digestible" chunks, MOTH, is that we need 10 polls to do what should be done in one. Articles C-E is some of the worst I ever saw in legal writing for organizational use, and should not be treated with a small piecemeal kind of respect, but a major shape-up.

 

[Nobody]

when we finally have a proper constitution, mad-bax will be known as the one done it.

 

[MOTH]

This still is not good enough, since we need to work in all shortcomings from the various Judicial Reviews, and to clearly differentiate powers and functions. That Mad Bax decided to resign is testament to that problem. I still also vouch for transferring Culture with something else, like science, and transferring trade to Foreign Affairs. I am still for dividing the all-powerful finance function from Domestic and keeping military separate.
Vice President could be an all over back up for the other deputies.
People should really consider the loss of activity as a delay of this reform is taking place to the last bitter minute.

The problem with small "digestible" chunks, MOTH, is that we need 10 polls to do what should be done in one. Articles C-E is some of the worst I ever saw in legal writing for organizational use, and should not be treated with a small piecemeal kind of respect, but a major shape-up.

I guess this is where we have to disagree. I know you've stated that the Culture Consulate should go away and I disagree with that. If there was one massive change it would probably include (at least) the above change to Expansion, a change for Infrastucture, and removal of Culture. I would have to vote against that proposal even though I approve of 2 out of 3 changes. One poll for each office eliminated/consolidated allows focused discussion and polling.

 

[DaveShack]

This will actually get polled, and pretty soon. Other changes from this thread will get polled too.

If a mass change does get polled (unlikely given the proponents don't seem to be in a hurry) we'll see which mechanism of change gets more support.

 

[Provolution]

Well, I feel strangulated, and I ran on this ballot promising not to post an amendment proposal, be impartial and be speedy, fair and effective. I believe these promises to be held. However, I have rightfully pointed out the need for change in Articles C-E, yet preserve the core of the Alternate Method. But do all of them piecemeal asap please.

I also think that the moderate reform faction is severely intimidated, defamed and bullied by the polarities, as we get banned, insulted, flamed, namecalled nazis and what have you without fair treatment in the postings. This has nullified my interest in driving the process, but said intimidation has not stopped me from requesting it. In a more fair environment the sabotage movements would have seen a much less preferential treatment, but I have quit believing in miracles and divine intervention.
I am a non-believer in both forums and real life, and am proud of it.

However, due to my bound "freedom of thought and expression", I cannot add much more to this, but to observe that some marginal improvements are made.

I think that clarified why several posters are hesitant in driving the process.

 

[DaveShack]

Starting in on the next change, I think there was general agreement on this one. This isn't really any different that what the current powers were supposed to be, but it clarifies things by listing more detail. No offense intended to the judiciary (who did their best to interpret a flawed document) but this undoes the effects of certain JRs, or will once the wording is nailed down.

Secretary of State: Determines external friends and enemies. Handles intelligence and threat estimates, and high level who to attack first and who to make treaties with. Responsible for embassies, investigations, and intelligence operations, coordinating funding with other departments. Determines wartime objectives. Responsible for scope and timing of Declarations of War, Peace Treaties, Military Alliances, Rights of Passage, and Mutual Protection Pacts, coordinated with other departments related to use of funds, technology, and resources.

 

[Provolution]

Excellent work DS, you are now doing what should have been done ages ago.
Strong focus on details and game related mechanisms related to forum decision-making creates a crystal clear law that can actually be used for the Demogame.
I think some of the more immature constitutionalists (younger) think they need to emulate real life legal documents. But Fanatannia is not a huge state machine with thousands of politicians and bureacrats, as well as lawyers to create subsets of rules, procedures and Code of Laws to deepen the constitution. The Constitution got to be crystal clear for us to use this as a document to play the game.

 

[Provolution]

DS, add military escorts to settlers, as well as War Economy and Mobilization. I would hate to redo this several times. I would also transfer military drafts to Domestic, given the nature of military mobilization being a national, not a provincial issue.

 

[LeeT911]

Hmm... I agree with Provo, include Mobilization and settler escorts with Domestic. I'm not sure about drafting, although once again Provo made a good point about it being national and not provincial, so I can go along with that too.

I also like the new Secretary of State description.

 

[mhcarver]

I also like the idea of a secretary of state position

 

[Bertie]

Well, I feel strangulated, and I ran on this ballot promising not to post an amendment proposal, be impartial and be speedy, fair and effective. I believe these promises to be held.

Provo,

If you want I’ll CC you for putting the narrow interests of political ambition and office ahead of the greater good of the citizens of Fanatannia. I’ll happily agree to settle if you’ll agree to ballot your amendments. You’ll be doing this under duress and in order to avoid a lengthy and ugly trial and disruption to the game; we’ll all understand that.

BTW, there are some really good suggestions for improving things in this thread. Don’t skip over m-b’s proposal for reforming how the DP is chosen. When we have 50 workers running around, trying to have a director write worker orders, and the DP to follow those directions, is going to be a nightmare.

 

[DaveShack]

Don’t skip over m-b’s proposal for reforming how the DP is chosen. When we have 50 workers running around, trying to have a director write worker orders, and the DP to follow those directions, is going to be a nightmare.

I was impressed by that proposal. It would result in one of the key improvements the original alternative was directed towards, which is to establish a "professional turn player" position in the form of an elected DP other than the President.

 

[greekguy]

no one seems to like my changes to these articles, which i understand with no hard feelings, but i still would like to contribute. From what i can tell, the problem we currently have is that no one position has enough power to get anything done (except Commerce, which apparently runs the game ) For a position to have more power, we need to have less possible positions. Thus, i think a lot of problems can be solved with one swift motion: eliminating the Director of Commerce. If we eliminate Commerce, then sliding the sliders can be the R & T duty (since some people say that R & T doesn't do much right now). Also, the External Consul will "have a job" and will be in control of all foreign affairs, including signing MA's, establishing embassies, and they will be the sole official who decalares war and agrees to peace.