Controversy : Kris Swordsman

[SnowKomodo]

IMHO..

And the mythical aspect of kris is well presented by Firaxis IMO..
The initial promotion is mystical flavored, but all of random promotions -for now- is not bounded by mystical aspect anymore..

I agree. It's not easy to present such a culture-laced weapon in a video game and Firaxis did a great job at it.

They did a great job with the Candi as well.

 

[AessaSH]

These are two men posing for a photo. First, Two men an army does not make. Second By that logic, the Thai army would have to wear their bright poofy parade uniforms and weild abyssmally outdated m1 carbines into battle in the year 2013. It's for show, in actual combat the Kris would be a hinderance in most cases.

That is not a parade uniform for the show.. =__=a
That photo is taken by VoC to create a documentary of the near obsolete army..

Of course not the entire division of the army uses the kris as a primary weapon..
The kris usually used as a primary weapon for close battle in a harsh terrain which is common in the ancient Indonesia such as paddy field and thick jungle behind Gajah Mada..

 

[Princeofnigeria]

It ain't a puzzle piece criteria. It's that all the other units existed and fought in an army at least once (minus mohawk, but I was allready opposed to their handling of them, as they made them a cheap zerg rush unit, pretty much the exact opposite of what they were known for) That's a pretty wide margin. I completely respect the culture of Indonesia, I am simply opposed to imaginary units, imaginary sides (looking at you "celts"), and imaginary buildings, reagrdless of cultural impact. Some of my ancestors were Aztecs, however I would still oppose the Aztecs getting an obsidian sacrificial knife UU, even if it was culturally relevant, a good 1v1 weapon, and not clunky to say. Men simply did not fight with these in any numbers worth counting.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

You say 'not really' but by that same logic you could read the Kris perks as having a real world function (e.g. the 50% bonus to attack = particular swordsman being a strong fighter)

The only true issue here that I can appreciate is those who say the Kris is not a proper UU. But in my post earlier (and ones later on) I explained why that doesn't bother me

As someone has already pointed out elsewhere-The Immortals were, in fact, nothing more than an oridnary (though elite) group of soldiers, who were called "Immortals to strike fear into their enemies. I see the Kris as being no different to this.

 

[Princeofnigeria]

That is not a parade uniform for the show.. =__=a
That photo is taken by VoC to create a documentary of the near obsolete army..

Of course not the entire division of the army uses the kris as a primary weapon..
The kris usually used as a primary weapon for close battle in a harsh terrain which is common in the ancient Indonesia such as paddy field and thick jungle behind Gajah Mada..

... You just said they posed for a... Whatever. I was less refering to the uniform and more to the kris, I was using a modern example to speak of the unreliability of the Kris as a primary combat arm. For a better example, weapon only to avoid confusion, do you believe the english royal army leap into battle with a pike? No, that is for show, they weild rifles. Sure the pike most certainly has terrain where it surpasses the rifle, it is still highly unnorthodox to fight with it in an actual combat situation.

 

[mike1117112]

A quote on Wiki about the Kris;
" ... every man in Java, whether he is rich or poor, must have a kris in his house .. and no man between the ages of 12 and 80 may go out of doors without a kris in his belt. They carry them at the back, as daggers used to be in Portugal... " — Tome Pires, Suma Oriental
I had to look it up as I wasn't that familiar with it. After reading the article, it looks like a great UU embodying the culture and traditions of the civilization. It actually looks like it will be fun. It was a weapon, and from what I read every soldier carried one. Maybe as a secondary weapon, but standard issue to soldiers, and popular, even required among the men. Uniquely Indonesian.
We now use the M1 as a ceremonial weapon, only for shows and parades. Does this mean we should remove it from the WW2 soldiers because it's role in warfare has disappeared with new technology?

 

[Princeofnigeria]

No. The M1 WAS a primary weapon in te US for over 20 years. The kris was a side arm. Should we instead add a colt 1911 unit, because of its impact and because it lasted 100?

 

[Evie94]

Well, if you have such a massive problem with the Kris, may i point out a solution? don't buy the game containing them or mod them out.

 

[glaivemaster]

... You just said they posed for a... Whatever. I was less refering to the uniform and more to the kris, I was using a modern example to speak of the unreliability of the Kris as a primary combat arm. For a better example, weapon only to avoid confusion, do you believe the english royal army leap into battle with a pike? No, that is for show, they weild rifles. Sure the pike most certainly has terrain where it surpasses the rifle, it is still highly unnorthodox to fight with it in an actual combat situation.

Now I can't be 100% sure, because I wasn't around at the time, but having studied a bit of history I'm fairly sure that there was a point when the English army did use pikes rather than rifles. I think it was some time before guns were invented.

As for the sidearm/carrying them into battle thing, I'm fairly sure officers in the army used to carry swords into battle long after they lost any relevance as actual fighting weapons. So it's not unprecedented for someone to carry a weapon in to battle as a symbol more than a primary weapon.

Again, mysticism builds YOUR empire, while these nonsensical swords can destroy your enemies. None of the mysticism beliefs give your men supernatural powers, they simply make them more culturally aware of cows/ forests/ gold, giving more culture, or giving you a greater means of communication, making you better able to exchange info an make science. The closest to supernatural would be defenders/ just war, but all that one does is fill one with devine purpose and a sense of being, not embue him with super streangth.

Of course, the same argument can easily be applied to the Kris. It isn't giving them magic powers, it's making them believe that they have magic, which makes them fight better. Exactly the same as your description of Just War.

 

[AessaSH]

... You just said they posed for a... Whatever. I was less refering to the uniform and more to the kris, I was using a modern example to speak of the unreliability of the Kris as a primary combat arm. For a better example, weapon only to avoid confusion, do you believe the english royal army leap into battle with a pike? No, that is for show, they weild rifles. Sure the pike most certainly has terrain where it surpasses the rifle, it is still highly unnorthodox to fight with it in an actual combat situation.

Before the rifle was founded, how was the Englishman fight at war?? Bare hand??
And do you think the pike is never become a primary weapon before?? No, right?

That's same with kris warriors in the photo above..
They are obsolete, but in the past, they were used in the battle..

Edit : Ninja'ed

 

[Ashbery76]

Why no Atlantis Civ? It is not a serious game about history so what is the issue.We could have Dragons appear as a random event too.The X-com units means Aliens should invade too in late game.

 

[Algeroth]

As someone has already pointed out elsewhere-The Immortals were, in fact, nothing more than an oridnary (though elite) group of soldiers, who were called "Immortals to strike fear into their enemies. I see the Kris as being no different to this.

This. The complains that you can build Kris armies (that wasn't used en mass by soldiers) is the same as against armies of Persian immortals (That were the elite regiment).

 

[Syailendra]

This. The complains that you can build Kris armies (that wasn't used en mass by soldiers) is the same as against armies of Persian immortals (That were the elite regiment).

i'm confused here? Are you saying that 'immortals' never existed?
Or that kris swordsman do exist? Coz both is not true

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

i'm confused here? Are you saying that 'immortals' never existed?
Or that kris swordsman do exist? Coz both is not true

He's saying that Immortals weren't special, they were simply soldiers, it's propaganda by Persians who made the enemies beleive Immortals had supernatural abilities.

 

[Feyd Rautha]

The thing is that faith and belief have caused humans to exceed their bounds since the dawn of time. If you fully believed in the magical attacking powers of your sword then doesn't it stand to reason that you would attack with supernatural vigor? (Supernatural in a beyond normal/natural sense)

 

[Karmah]

I take the UU as 'kriss wielding soldiers' and not 'kriss fighting warriors'.
What I mean is that the guys carry a Kriss along with a real weapon.
And it stops here.
The soldiers in indonesia were carrying a Kriss so ....they have kriss carrying warriors...It is a culturally emblematic unit.
Then you can add a psychological effect doubled with a tradition surrounding those soldiers that makes em quite resolute. Actually facing a resolute opponent is quite something ....and that something needs to be reflected in the game as a bonus of some sort.


As for the religion/pantheon bonuses being magical ....i m sorry I ll sound disrespectfull (since actually I am ) but it s total nonense from someone who never gave 1s of reflection about the gameplay model. Of course those bonuses reflects an inclination deeply engraved into the society structure. How can a production bonus or a growth bonus be assimilated with magic ?????
a production bonus on fishing boats means that religion creates an occupation for most people in the society to creates things out of the fishing products (some oils , some shell based tools whatever) and a fertility things ...well it just means that the morality in this society is to encourage people to have sex, since that s how babies are made (yeah i m not kidding , it s true , i ve seen it on TV) ))

 

[HeraldtheGreat]

I think the devs threw practicality and realism out the window when the gave Carthage war elephants as a UU and traversing mountains part of the UA . Anyways, my point is the Kris swordsman is uniquely Indonesian, has a cultural history, and was standard-issue for the Indonesian army. That, to me, warrents a UU.

 

[Liufeng]

I think the devs threw practicality and realism out the window when the gave Carthage war elephants as a UU and traversing mountains part of the UA . Anyways, my point is the Kris swordsman is uniquely Indonesian, has a cultural history, and was standard-issue for the Indonesian army. That, to me, warrents a UU.

You realize that they gave war elephants + that ability because Hannibal croosed the Alps with elephants. The devs just represented that side of history by giving this ability, and not "out of realism".
Besides, I just feel this thread is a bit of making a storm in a glass of water ... I'm not indonesian, and I don't know much of its history, nor about the symbol of the kris blade. All I know is that these kind of ondulated blades cause deep wounds extremely hard to heal, because that shape. Giving mysterious power ... I personnally don't think so. Anyway, with such logic, shouldn't the american minuteman be weaker than the regular musketman ? After all, minutemen were a militia, not trained soldiers. And the Mandekalu cavalry ? They shouldn't be any different from the knight. And so on ...

 

[HeraldtheGreat]

You realize that they gave war elephants + that ability because Hannibal croosed the Alps with elephants. The devs just represented that side of history by giving this ability, and not "out of realism".
Besides, I just feel this thread is a bit of making a storm in a glass of water ... I'm not indonesian, and I don't know much of its history, nor about the symbol of the kris blade. All I know is that these kind of ondulated blades cause deep wounds extremely hard to heal, because that shape. Giving mysterious power ... I personnally don't think so. Anyway, with such logic, shouldn't the american minuteman be weaker than the regular musketman ? After all, minutemen were a militia, not trained soldiers. And the Mandekalu cavalry ? They shouldn't be any different from the knight. And so on ...

My point was that war elephants were not specific to Carthage, they were not very practical, and crossing the Alps once doesn't mean it's a good idea to merge it with the UA. I'm sorry if I didn't make that clearer.

 

[Louis XXIV]

^ To be fair, their main UA is the free harbor thing. The crossing the Alps thing rarely comes up as part of their ability and is probably more harmful than good. Plus, you can't quite say it's unrealistic when it literally happened.

-Bhayangkara

Well that's a mouthful

Can you give me some info on it? A google search only turns up the Javanese wikipedia page, which is obviously unhelpful.

And the kris was highly prevalent. Every relevant man owned a kris. Particularly in the army. And they had huge armies. The criticism of this is that they were not necessarily the primary weapon of choice, but that shouldn't matter when its spiritual implications held by Indonesians meant it was a more valuable weapon than anything else they used. The Krises with the personal titles were thought to embody the essence of the rulers who owned them which was thought to bring success to battle

Given that logic, "Kris Swordsman" doesn't even require that they use the Kris in battle, just that they have it with them as something spiritually important to them.

For a better example, weapon only to avoid confusion, do you believe the english royal army leap into battle with a pike? No, that is for show, they weild rifles.

Well, the army did, at one point, fight with Pikes. If the English had a Pikeman replacement that used Pikes, I probably wouldn't be weirded out by that. Likewise, if the Indonesians had a Rifleman replacement that used Krises I would be upset. But a swordsman replacement isn't that.