Cookbook B (Boudi) Discussions

[Pangaea]

It's possible. It's just that I saw a bunch of spears, and spears in walled hill cities is not nice HA food She has several of those (in games with visibility). It's worth a shot though. Maybe it's possible to power through. Or at least take a city or two first, then cease fire, regroup/resupply, and try again. Perhaps the forests we do have around the capital will be enough.

From the games I've looked at so far, it's hard to choose which one to move forward with. Pretty similar approaches, with some minor differences in tech choices.

When was the deadline again? I hope we get some more games in.

edit: Altho she has copper somewhere, at least it's easy to take out the iron supply, if that is her only one. Easier to take on 5-strength axes than 6-strength swords. Could maybe throw in some chariots as well.

 

[sampsa]

Could maybe throw in some chariots as well.

Oh I can say that I always have several chariots when attacking @HBR. They are excellent for many purposes. I also don't build stables for HBR-attacks as I think two extra chariots is just better.

Or at least take a city or two first, then cease fire, regroup/resupply, and try again.

Exactly this. It'd be way more difficult if she and the other AI were pleased at each other. Maybe so much more difficult that HA-attack is just a bad idea. As it is, you can just exploit cease fires as you please.

 

[5tephen]

Settled 1S. Ag->mining->BW->fishing->wheel->pottery->writing. I found the gems just as Izzy settled Barcelona ruining my plans for cow/rice spot! I thought no worries, I'll fall back on wine PH - well that went well! My problem in the last game was overexpansion so I made damn sure I had writing in this time. My plan was to bulb maths and axepult Izzy but reading real deity player comments it looks like that wasn't the best move... Having gone BW, I wanted to avoid AH until I had a working economy so don't know where the horses are. Tolosa was to stop Izzy taking all my land but I may have overvalued some poor land and a few forests and have been better off settling copper or silver earlier. The two mines were to get out a monument and the second settler but worker turns would have been better used chopping in retrospect - have barely worked either mine.

Spoiler :

 

[dorhin]

Spoiler :

Settled in place and expanded to 3 cities, 4th one coming in soon. My idea would have been to go for HA-rush as most others, but I guess I was a bit distracted going writing etc when I compare it to the other saves.
Tech path was Agriculture->AH->mining->BW->fishing->pottery->writing
The 2nd city (Vienne) was actually supposed to go onto the oasis tile, but apparently one cannot build cities there

 

[shakabrade]

T60

Spoiler :

I was considering to get the deer site PH or 1S and opted for 1S as it gets more commerce short term and allows you to connect 2 cities without roads and Sailing. And the only thing needed for all the techs to time right is commerce. Settling on Silver would have been more tempting if it was one turn less to lose and if it was more inland.

I did not overthink anything and my tech path was Agri - AH - Mining - BW - Fishing - Wheel - Pottery - Writing to get all the prerequisite bonuses. My 2nd city was sheep plus silvers (built settler at size 3) as it can be a decent worker pump at size 3 and by the time of that decision I already realized we were boxed in meaning the commerce for HBR or Construction was a priority. 3rd city was placed to grab a deer - oasis - fish and not to lose the site by any chance. I had to start with the monument there. Deer will be ours in 3-4 turns. That site will need to whip most of the catapults once I attack Izzy, HAs are not an option because almost all cities are on hills and Izzy is a unit spammer this game. 4th city was by the copper, it needed roads to connect and I did not feel like sharing food from the capital too soon as I was sharing corn with the sheep - silver to bring it up ASAP and waste less turns not working those mines.

I did not chop as much (only one chop so far) because I am saving those forests for units. In 5 turns the road on oasis will be finished and connect me to trade routes. Unfortunately, Buddhism spread to Cathy, but the girls still hate each other so I guess I'll be safe until the attack.

Spoiler :

 

[shakabrade]

Some feedback:

@sampsa

Spoiler :

I see your game as the opposite approach from what and therefore I'll focus on you from this point onward.
I am not sure that avoiding strong AH tiles was a good call. Roughly, working on those stronger tiles for roughly 25T would have yielded extra 170-180 food plus hammers combined, would have allowed quicker growth and more commerce worked (you are behind by roughly 200 compared to commerce heavy games). You did offset this by cutting almost all the forest and look okay ATM but now you don't have that forest and getting the required number of cats will be a challenge. Plus, after the rush, with no strong commerce backbone, it gets tough, at least it is tough for me to deal with it. Especially as there are not many AIs around to toss you the gold once the war stopped as we know by this point in the game.

About my forests,

Spoiler :

I have 12 of them that will go into units powered by Maths. My challenge will be to cut everything down. 48 worker turns of chopping starting in 5T when I get the last improvements needed means I'll need 2 more workers added to current 2 (one half done) to be able to chop everything and place conquering roads in 20T from now. I delayed my workers compared to the most but it could be just in time. I am not sure about the libraries though. Are they needed?

 

[sampsa]

@shakabrade

Spoiler :

Thanks for the feedback. While I think my position is OK, it's nowhere near what I'd think is possible with correct play. Of course I may be wrong, but I think 1SW is the best play T0 (to a degree this is something we can't know T0 though). However, I failed to utilize the full consequence of settling there - there is no longer an urgent need for a mediocre city down south, since both deer and oasis are claimed already. Especially when going for the -heavy T0-play, 2nd city should be -heavy if possible. Sheep+silvers is clearly a better 2nd city, especially for the 1SW-capital. 3 such strong cities (cow-copper 3rd), this amount of forest and should be enough to pull off a mean construction attack. Horses should make the game almost a breeze, unless I'm underestimating agg AI.

I think you are correct on delaying AH being sub-optimal. In extra 170-180 + you probably aren't taking granaries into account though, which is the whole point of going BW+pottery asap (higher -cap from CHA is the detail which made it tempting for me). 3 granaries in such cities win around 20 pt compared to zero granaries, plus granaries offer a good ->-conversion. Anyway, it's probably easiest to just look what you end up with as otherwise it gets too fuzzy quickly.

Onward from my save, I don't see getting enough units being a huge challenge despite low amount of forests left. I don't need to build workers (have 5) nor granaries, so can focus on growing to whip later. Green tiles can start growing cottages for a -backbone, plus first captured city has 3 cottaged fps. Point taken on not being able to fuel with easy gold from AIs though. I think the main challenge in my save is that the attack is later than was necessary due to low respect for .

Your game: On libraries I have a very clear opinion - NO. Not a huge fan of the scouting work boat either. In short, I would not divert away from the main aim. Barracks, then start putting into units, probably most cities should skip the +1 (monument) at this point as chopping is your main source of , not whipping.

 

[shakabrade]

@shakabrade

Spoiler :

Thanks for the feedback. While I think my position is OK, it's nowhere near what I'd think is possible with correct play. Of course I may be wrong, but I think 1SW is the best play T0 (to a degree this is something we can't know T0 though). However, I failed to utilize the full consequence of settling there - there is no longer an urgent need for a mediocre city down south, since both deer and oasis are claimed already. Especially when going for the -heavy T0-play, 2nd city should be -heavy if possible. Sheep+silvers is clearly a better 2nd city, especially for the 1SW-capital. 3 such strong cities (cow-copper 3rd), this amount of forest and should be enough to pull off a mean construction attack. Horses should make the game almost a breeze, unless I'm underestimating agg AI.

I think you are correct on delaying AH being sub-optimal. In extra 170-180 + you probably aren't taking granaries into account though, which is the whole point of going BW+pottery asap (higher -cap from CHA is the detail which made it tempting for me). 3 granaries in such cities win around 20 pt compared to zero granaries, plus granaries offer a good ->-conversion. Anyway, it's probably easiest to just look what you end up with as otherwise it gets too fuzzy quickly.

Onward from my save, I don't see getting enough units being a huge challenge despite low amount of forests left. I don't need to build workers (have 5) nor granaries, so can focus on growing to whip later. Green tiles can start growing cottages for a -backbone, plus first captured city has 3 cottaged fps. Point taken on not being able to fuel with easy gold from AIs though. I think the main challenge in my save is that the attack is later than was necessary due to low respect for .

Your game: On libraries I have a very clear opinion - NO. Not a huge fan of the scouting work boat either. In short, I would not divert away from the main aim. Barracks, then start putting into units, probably most cities should skip the +1 (monument) at this point as chopping is your main source of , not whipping.

Spoiler :

Yeah, I would go back to see it with more from Sheep plus both silvers. Regarding granaries, they somehow cancel each other with the lost growth I mentioned, you do regain some of that food (or all of it), so it is not a downside as I first mentioned.

Regarding fuzzy image and looking things in the end, it could be right if we had many entries, but neither you or me executed our positions perfectly. So it is still fuzzy in the end.

True, you can whip like crazy already or save you pop for future whips, and it is still doable to gather an army (thanks to Cha happy cap, BTW I value CHA very highly). I think the main challenge in this game is that AIs have much more land while tech costs are lower than on standard map. If you look at your score tab and see the land (not really that small at all), and consider how little land we got, I hope the runaway AI is going to be the Catherine as she is close and we can at least try to do something. It is good they also have fewer trade partners. But still, 10+ city deity AIs are fast and with Aggressive AIs, it is going to be an uphill battle even if we manage to take care of Izzy. That puts a pressure on us to be able to war non-stop.

On libraries, I have a problem that libraries could shave some turns from the construction. I would whip them. Current rough estimate is that I get Construction in 30T. I will self tech Masonry and put some hammers into Mids and, if lucky, get some gold to speed Construction up. Meanwhile, I will slow build Axes which are also going to take gpt and I am counting that all of my not yet constructed cottages will basically pay for the units cost. That is why I want to delay the production of units as much as possible. More Axes will mean fewer cats, and cats are more important. With libraries, I get more cats in the mix while having fewer units overall. I do not know if I have expressed myself clearly enough.

Once we get a great general and settle it, we can switch to Gaelic warrior and get Guerilla III guys with 5exp. I had one game where I used them extensively and it was ridiculous how you get more than 50% survival chance on almost any fight. When you have the numbers and a healer, it is crazy. Almost like Chu-ko-nu. Reduces the need for cats.

 

[Tonny]

Trying to make sense of all saves together in 1 place

Spoiler :

 

[shakabrade]

@Tonny
Since we are still very early, I think that adding stuff like: hammers in production, improvements and forests available are still very relevant. Now I expose myself to: if you are so full of ideas, why don't you do it!? If you are willing to share your sheet, I can do it.
BTW, hugely appreciated what you and @Pangaea did.

 

[drewisfat]

I got a unique starting location: SSW. The thinking here was threefold:
- Incense on plains river is actually a good tile unlike the rest of the calendar crud, and the presence of a second one encourages an earlier than usual calendar. I didn't like killing the tile for just a +1 city.
- Given the foggazing of the coast in the NW and especially NE tile, I was worried about getting stuck with uncomfortable city spots or killing a resource.
- I liked the synergy of shore fish, oasis, deer and forested ph. Grow on oasis while getting fishing, then deer and then deer + ph to rush wb out, which can settle fish its first turn.

Big mistake was after fishing I greeded to pottery, figuring my 2nd city would have nothing but fps but would be necessary to block Spain off. Seville showing up on T25 was heartbreaking. Really didn't expect her to rush her third city in my direction after her second city was in my direction. Wish I went straight to BW and chopped for a faster start. Consolation is a couple early cottages with some development.

I never play agg AI so maybe I'm just being cowardly, but my impression is more units and slower tech from the AI means I shouldn't attack early, especially with some good commerce like we have here. I'm thinking about boudi's G3 maces. Espionage on Izzy. I rushed writing/OB with her on T44 hoping to secure peace. Also gave her corn since hen. Still no buddhism -.-

Spoiler :

If you use my save it's real important to note that Izzy just moved a settler 2N of Seville. It could be going 1 tile north but judging from the direction it came, I think it's heading 2NE to the ph for sheep. Settling silver city asap where worker is chopping should deter that, but you'd need to 3 pop whip from Bibracte this turn (not a cold whip though). Bibracte does have a granary. Could even try to whip one more city by whale/spices, though there's no food and Seville is pumping out lots of culture.

Spoiler :

This is a city. It comes with a monument and dreams.

Not sure on tech path. Sailing finishing up for Tolosa and future calendar. With only two AIs present who are worst enemies with each other I'm tempted to just not even try to tech trade and go straight for calendar.

 

[shakabrade]

Spoiler T60 Spreadsheet :

Added improvements completed, hammers in production, forests left (forests on the outer edge of the border were counted as a half). I might have missed something. Sorry if I did. Thanks, Tonny for the spreadsheet.

The more I looked at the games, the more I saw how things in the spreadsheet don't really reflect how I judge the game. For instance, scouting or no scouting, what kind of improvements are built, are the roads right, worker turns in the improvements not yet built, ability to connect to a trade network, is there a goal behind the game, what is the potential burst of production when you need the units. But you must start with the numbers, right?

 

[shakabrade]

@drewisfat

Great to see that yet another location could work properly. It is a shame you didn't settle sheep + silvers yet. Could have had a fantastic research and attack date. You feel that later war is what you prefer, but having a city to become a land target sooner is increasing the likelihood of the war. I am not sure that the AIs will be slow just because they are Aggressive. They'll have the land and we have no other AIs to piggyback us with tech. We are bound to fall behind. HA rush (with extreme luck) and Construction attack are pretty much all I can see that could save this game. Maybe I am a bit pessimistic. We'll see soon, I guess.

 

[Pangaea]

Thanks greatly for the overview @shakabrade (edit: and @Tonny - didn't see that post). I know that took a lot of time to do

Looking at the numbers, my game doesn't look as inferior as I thought it would be, but a downside is the lack of a fourth city. And I have to admit that in hindsight (close to T60), going for HAs probably isn't the wisest move here (at least in my game, where I spotted quite a few spears when exploring).

Anyway, I'm sad to say I won't be able to play these two games until whatever state they have arrived at in early January. Am focusing the hours I have available before the holidays on getting through a few Game of the Month maps. Hopefully at least one can be completed.

 

[sampsa]

I agree with shaka that the numbers are a good starting point, but no more than that. For example I sacrificed a lot to be in position where I'm making 36pt (counting -surplus twice in cities with a granary) with +10 next turn as AH power tiles are coming online. The chart doesn't even mention -surplus. Not sure if it even should, as it can't measure everything anyway.

 

[Fippy]

Drew's game is very interesting indeed with that sneaky Tolosa plant

Some points to consider..Agg. AI still follows rules like not plotting at pleased if they are one of those (Izzy might be who knows).
Seeing her at pleased already in many games probably means that adopting her Reli results in friendly, opening up trading before you can meet other AIs.
I could see something like Cuirs working, techs are a bit cheaper on small maps. Not easy having the patience thou.

 

[sampsa]

Fully agree Fips, I wouldn't be shocked if drew can make it work somehow with his espionage magicks. I would have very low chance.

 

[dorhin]

Judging from the discussion, it seems like most people would aim for a construction rush now rather than a HA-rush (which also seemed like a good choice given horses and the limited space we have). This is probably the safer play, but I am curious what people would do if you went for a HA-rush anyway. With how many HAs would you attack the first city in this game? And if you go for construction, how many catapults do you field before declaring?

 

[Tonny]

I agree with you all that my numbers on the saves are incomplete, but you have to start somewhere. Shakabrade added some more useful numbers, but still the list is incomplete.
A thorough breakdown, however, could lead to confusion and too much information.

There are some saves that are ready to execute a nice HA rush and there are some well on their way to a Construction rush.
I love to see both played in the 2nd round.

 

[sampsa]

@dorhin

Spoiler :

Judging from the discussion, it seems like most people would aim for a construction rush now rather than a HA-rush (which also seemed like a good choice given horses and the limited space we have). This is probably the safer play, but I am curious what people would do if you went for a HA-rush anyway. With how many HAs would you attack the first city in this game? And if you go for construction, how many catapults do you field before declaring?

My opinion is that HA-attack is the stronger play. With how many units... Maybe you can start with around 10, depends a bit on what the aim is. My aim would be to take the wine hill city to and protect it, anticipating some kind of counter-attack. Perhaps snipe another city in the south if possible. Possibly cease fire and start to prepare the push for capital with some 15-20 HAs. For cats, maybe around 8+8 is a good start and probably push quickly towards capital after wine hill.