Cookbook B (Boudi) Discussions

[drewisfat]

Imo HAs by default are better than axepult. Agg nudges axepult back on top. Seville being attackable on turn one pushes HAs back on top. But Agg-AI + cultured hill city makes me favor construction in the end. HAs just too dependent on what that initial defense is and the first few dice rolls, while catapults mitigate that with guaranteed collateral. One final consideration is I might lean back to HAs for the saves with only 3 cities.

I expect the strongest T110 save will be from an HA rush that catches Izzy at war with Cathy, but I think a construction rush is a more consistent path to victory.

 

[shakabrade]

T110 from my own save

I decided to try to preoccupy myself with Civ not to think about terrible headache but this game, this... game is the most uphill battle I have fought in a while. Definitely forgot the original headache but gained a new one.

Spoiler :

Catherine DoWed on Izzy and what i got was that Izzy went from 3-4 units per city to some ridiculous numbers (all cities after Seville had 14+ defenders). Even the Seville, far from the Russia had 6-7 defenders when I attacked. Luckily, they weren't fortified and I took a few losses. The Russia captured coastal Santiago, a shame, a decent city for me and suicided its stack at Barcelona 2T before I could reach there with my main force. Russia attacked with 12-14 units and I had, at that time my small contingent of Cats and Axes already there if Barcelona was weakened enough, but hillside Barcelona defenders killed the whole stack, earned promotions and got 2T of healing. No chance to do anything with my 5 dudes who were sent there to protect the bombarding cats. Lol. And then, first Longbows appeared as well. I suicided so many cats to graze the Longbows while Russian troops would come to the Izzy city and then just turn back, being of no help at all. Although I had decent number of Cats (17), I almost lost them all to capture 4 cities, many times not even grazing the Longbows. My war success was such that I got only 50 gold for peace. I have decided that the cities I got are fantastic enough to call it a day. Still thinking about piggybacking on Catherine's back if she pursues the further war, but no more active commitment from my side. I have gold in the bank, economy techs, almost will be able to trade for Calendar with Izzy and will just grow my cities to (actually pretty high) happy cap and prepare Cuir into Cavalry end of the game. Somewhere mid war I started putting some GPP in Bibracte and will have a scientist soon. Seville built us ToA, and Madrid has the Oracle and the MoM. With MoM, I do not care about GPP pollution as I welcome all the GPeople for Golden ages. Switched the reli to Buddhism and have a city liberating settler almost ready to get friendly with Russia soon. I think this game is in the bag now.

Spoiler :

 

[Nick723]

Hi all - great to see the write ups and such high level play.

I haven’t been able to play unfortunately, newborn baby means civ has to take the backseat! Also this is way out of my league ha...but would have been fun to try!

Quick one though if I do get some time - can anyone point me in the direction of a buffy mod install guide? I haven’t been able to get it to work.

Also re HA vs Construction, can we also discuss HA vs Gallic warrriors? It seems to me that, vs HA:
- GW come earlier (slightly cheaper tech, easier to trade for)
- are slightly stronger vs archers
- are slightly stronger vs their main counter (axe vs spear for HA)
- are similar in speed to HA if guerrilla 2 out of the gate
- are much better defensively as get bonuses
- get better future promos (guerrilla 3, city raider)
- if you build a dun in one city, can be supported by G2 axes / spears

Is there a compelling argument for picking HA for Boudicca vs using Gallic Warriors?

 

[drewisfat]

I sympathize Nick. While I can use Buffy to play games, I can't get rid of the error message for HoF. I secretly think it's all a hoax. I'm not sure how much help this thread is but https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/help-with-installing-buffy.504245/

- Gallics fall 1 xp short of G3 until you get vassalage/theocracy/gg. Guerilla is pretty pointless until G3. Going G2 kinda commits our entire army into burning their 2nd promo just to keep consistent occasional 2 movement speed. Hill defense isn't a weakpoint of the rush. Without any promos at all we're still pretty happy if the enemy decides to attack us on a hill as opposed to flatlands, or us attacking them in a city. It's a costly investment for a future that won't happen if we don't take Seville.
- How do we accumulate high promo gallics? We'll take heavy casualties at first, and then we'll have units that are hurt / not good at defending a city, and then finally we'll tell them to attack the next city and of the few G3 gallics we got, roughly half of them will die again. If we had suicide siege we could accumulate some high promo units, but that would be a construction rush.
- The downside with duns is without stone or PRO, it costs 50 hammers + Masonry to set up. We really need all hands on deck to win the first battle, and 50 hammers is 1-2 axes. I'd rather have that city build 3-4 axes than 2 axes with G1. Would rather have 5-6 axes than 4 axes with G1, etc. I would build Gallics with catapults if I got IW in trade.
- Moving double on hills is still a far cry from being a 2 mover.
- Most importantly we can't hit Seville on the first turn, which means we just have to guess how many troops will reinforce.
- It's rare to get any trade value out of IW, and even then it's usually a couple early religious techs or something. HBR is much better tradebait and we can get IW with it, or most of maths, or even use it to broker peace.
- Economic stagnation is a big issue. Construction rushes have had time to build a foundation, get some cottages, trade routes, maybe even a library. HAs spend much less time sitting in enemy territory and conquer cities for lump sums of gold quickly.

I'd use them to follow up an axe choke, as there's no risk in not finding iron, but that doesn't apply here.

 

[Fippy]

I sympathize Nick. While I can use Buffy to play games, I can't get rid of the error message for HoF. I secretly think it's all a hoax. I'm not sure how much help this thread is but https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/help-with-installing-buffy.504245/

Buffy options are included in Bug options (can be opened with the green Bug icon on top left).
First tab has warnings on Dawn of Man & Settings which can be unchecked.

On the second last tab (System) you can also uncheck the Options shortcut reminder.

 

[shakabrade]

@Nick723

I haven’t been able to play unfortunately, newborn baby means civ has to take the backseat! Also this is way out of my league ha...but would have been fun to try!

Quick one though if I do get some time - can anyone point me in the direction of a buffy mod install guide? I haven’t been able to get it to work.

Congrats on the baby! I can tell from the experience that I actually played a lot of civ while my freshly baked daughter was sleeping on me back in 2012. Never give up!
The son never liked sleeping on me though, but maybe it is because I wasn't civving at that time. Chicken-egg stuff.

Is there a compelling argument for picking HA for Boudicca vs using Gallic Warriors?

Everything @drewisfat said. HA mobility is extremely valuable, making reinforcements actually come to front line in time and you can fork the cities, reducing the losses..


I also have problems making BUFFY work on my laptop. I do not have any disc drive and have GOG version which I just can't make work with BUFFY. Fortunately, I have the old computer with BUFFY and my original disc version installed. It sounds like it will lift off or die when I play, but somehow it still manages.

 

[Qactus]

Spoiler T110 :

Continued peacefully from @drewisfat
- Isabella and Cathy at war with each other, letting me do my thing
- pursuing Cuirassiers, but have to gain access to iron. I was thinking it can be flipped with a lot of culture output from Bibracte. Or maybe Cathy's iron is captured by Isabella and becomes available for trade.
- I sailed around the whole landmass looking for some small offshore island for improved GLH traderoutes, while a settler kept following the galley inland, ready to embark. But no luck, so I settled crappy Camulodunum, hoping to flip the cow at some point.
- First GS bulbed Philosophy, Music artist is waiting in the capital
- Great Library in 5 turns

Spoiler Some pictures :

 

[Fippy]

Great Qactus, a very interesting no early war game
Not adding an island somewhere was a mistake by me, should have done so as support for peaceful games.

 

[sampsa]

T110 from my own save

Spoiler :

So, went HBR. No stables, barracks in all 4 cities. Right now it looks a bit ugly to grow on unimproved tiles, but it's important to grow before the whipping spree begins.

Attack T83, capturing winehill and cow+fish cities on the first turn. Catherine goes WHEOORN T84. They have border tension, so very unlikely that I'm the target.

Fork Barcelona and Madrid, but both are loaded with units, so I snipe the city down south and take 10T of peace for masonry+sailing+maths. Soon after Catherine attacks Isabella, but lacks anything that can capture a city even.

I re-attack T100 and frankly make huge mistakes costing lots of troops. Glad I had so many of them and axes+spears that I built before 1st war weren't worth that much anyway. Cats and phants could've been useful for the final attack on Bella though.

Looking at @shakabrade 's game, it's actually amusing how similar the position is.

 

[shakabrade]

@Qactus

Spoiler :

If you get a GM for trade mission and upgrade HAs or better Phants to Cuirs, you can live with paying the Iron for a turn. If you don't get any other way.

@sampsa

Spoiler :

Lol, yeah, very similar. We killed almost the same number of units, what are the odds?! I was lucky that Barcelona revolted the turn it came out of initial revolt (8-9% chance for that). I guess also that I am the guy who doesn't get the Buddhist shrine (and @Qactus but he did not deserve it yet anyway). Honestly, I like your position, sampsa. You have Henge, SoZ and a Shrine more than me; actually I value the Henge more as you get +1 happy per city and that sort of makes up for the happy cap you drained with extra whipping. EDIT: I do have an Oracle for some GPP. I am also surprised that initial HA attack wasn't crushed with all those hill cities, but I also see that in your game Cathy attacked 9-10 turns later, hence less prepared Izzy. Izzy in my game had 2 defenders in Seville before Cathy DoW and 6 after. Cathy is the kingmaker here.
When you think about it, my cats can only die, while HAs can capture stuff and have 20% chance to survive. I still think that Cats plus Axes are far more consistent on this map, even if HAs worked. How many HAs would you need to take cities with 14+ defenders, 3 times in a row. My attack date was T88, not too delayed compared to HAs. I would play my game to the end only because of the blood, sweat and tears invested. If I get the Music first, it could be a better game, if not, it is going to be a challenge.

@Fippy, what is the next turnset size going to be? I might have to leave for vacation earlier and probably I will not be able to make BUFFY work on my GOG Civ Complete. I will try to play a bit in the next 2-3 days.

 

[Fippy]

With the holiday season close i will set no turnset size for now, so no hurry.
After new year we can see how things look.

 

[5tephen]

Hmmm... I was quite pleased with my effort from @shakabrade's save until I read everybody else's write-ups! Still not a disaster but I need to have a good look and see why I am so far behind in cities captured and tech...

Spoiler :

Traded for monarchy and currency. Quietly (foolishly) confident in capturing Barcelona. Catherine has a lot of cities and I guess that will be awkward. Not sure there's much more to say... I lack the experience to see how well or not I'm doing.

 

[dorhin]

Spoiler To T110 :

Picked my own save as I was a bit in a hurry and too lazy to decide which save to choose

I was a bit unconcentrated in the beginning and didn't build units before construction, so my attack date was a bit late. Furthermore, I also got out a Great Scientist who ended up building an academy ,which was probably a waste and further delayed the attack. Despite that, I caputred 4 of Isabellas cities so far and am quite optimistic to win the war. None of the other civs has got alphabet so far, I researched ~a third of it in the hope to trade with some one but that hasn't happened yet. Currency is in but I am losing money each turn even at 0% research.
Switched to Buddhism this turn (currently in anarchy) which was a bit of a panic move as I realized that Catherine started plotting and had also switched to Buddhism (former Hindu), the idea would be to get her to pleased and beg some gold from her as I don't think I am ready for the war yet.

Looking at the other saves, my game seems similar to 5tepehns, but your economy is in better shape.

Really nice progress shakabrade and sampsa, guess your games are basically won

I also like the different path Qactus has chosen, looking forward to seeing how you continue the game

 

[sampsa]

HA ramblings

Spoiler :

While playing, I kinda felt like the HA-attack was a failure. Yes, I got two cities on the first turn, but then didn't find any way to punch through. Taking Cordoba (south of Madrid) and suing for peace turned out great though! I think it's the kind of opportunistic play you need to be ready for with HAs. Constantly change to plan B if plan A doesn't work or seems too costly. In practice, sometimes you need to come up with the plan B as you play. With my opportunistic play I got 3 cities (one without tiles though), 650 in peace deal to help me catch up the more -heavy starting strategies and maybe most importantly a softened Isabella. By then I realized it was not a failure but a huge success, at the cost of 10HAs+1cha+ the scout that I sacrificed as a decoy. I think had I gotten only two (good) cities and some 200 it still would have been OK. Getting one city would've been a failure. How I managed to lose almost 30 units in the second war against a weakened target is a bit beyond me, though I suppose longbows in hilled cities can do that.

I hope I'm not just trying to see things that support my earlier claim that even on this map HAs are a lot stronger than cats. Of course, this is in hindsight and maybe changing some seemingly minor details changes everything. Maybe for example if the fish-cow directly to the south was not so easy to take (or if it was already captured by Catherine) it would already make a world of difference...

 

[Nick723]

Thanks Drew, Shaka!

Makes sense what you say about HA vs GW, for what it’s worth I decided to give it a go anyway. I don’t have an appropriate save, but will try to dig out some screenshots when back at the computer. I don’t feel I played particularly well (was playing in a rush in between baby waking up!) but it was a fun try.

+ve
Very early attack, took 2 cities almost immediately
One was a hill city, easy to park G2 GW in there vs counter attacks

-ve
after first cities, very difficult to move out. Lost a lot of GW in the field to axes as there weren’t enough hills.
The Dun doesn’t actually work(!). I thought it was supposed to give G1 to axemen/spears (have seen that written elsewhere). It doesn’t!

Overall I think what I should have done was to take first 2-3 cities, make peace for tech as Sampsa did. Then I could go for construction with 6 cities.

 

[sampsa]

The Dun doesn’t actually work(!). I thought it was supposed to give G1 to axemen/spears (have seen that written elsewhere). It doesn’t!

Yeh, it gives guerrilla1 only to units that are eligible for that promotion. Archery units.

Honestly I didn't even consider going IW. Drew already gave quite a nice list of reasons, and for me the timing of it all just feels very uncomfortable. Getting two cities and tech for peace would be a great result.

 

[drewisfat]

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

Gameplan = G3 maces + spies.

Whipped settler for silver city and then while Spain's settler got turned around, rushed out another settler to Camel. Camel's not great, but nabs a calendar resource and saves me the trouble of having to conquer it later. Plan to just build spies from this city.
Went straight to calendar to get both incenses going and to justify Camel's existence. Then went to CS. Izzy was nice enough to actively spread buddhism to all of my cities. I actually had to stall teching CoL to avoid ruining this with Confucianism.
Cathy invaded Spain and took a city.
Left all forests up to build future army while I go pure eco.
Got a GS sitting in capital.
Gave Cathy a giftcity to get her to pleased only for her to switch to Confu. She should be pleased soon -.-
Traded for the techs at the bottom of the tree and got Theocracy. Unless Izzy's currently researching Theo, can trade her it for Feuda in a couple turns.

It's time to start the build up, and you can see cities building gallics. Going to use a GA while building a GM out of both Tolosa and Bibracte, so don't let Bibracte grow. I left all the forests up and prechopped/roaded a lot of them. They're good to go into GWs during the GA and then leave in slavery and spam whips. I scouted the continent. A lot of hill cities so G3 should be fun. Cathy's up to 13 cities now which is pretty scary. I did build a Dun in Tolosa for some crossbow/longbow reinforcements. Barcelona has shrine, but the only wonder on the continent is the Oracle -.-

 

[Qactus]

@drewisfat Looking good! If you happen to have a spare great general at some point, please consider adding the Tactics promo on top of G3 and CR3 just for fun. +100% hill city attack and 80% withdrawal chance

 

[drewisfat]

@Qactus I'll see about saving GGs for memes
@Fippy I was specifically referring to the "game can't be submitted to HoF" error on startup. Stupid steam version . Also, I don't think it's a mistake not artificially adding islands and stuff. Challenge is to find the best way to play a particular map. Your comment may make me think next game that I can rely on some islands and that GLH will be viable by default, etc.

Spoiler :

I'm really impressed with the success all the attackers have had so far. I would have expected some failures. The saves with only a couple cities conquered are still winnable, just might have a later victory date. I'm crying not only at the wonders you guys got, but about your Russians. Y'all have a buddhist Cathy with 9-11 cities, meanwhile my Cathy is off religion with 13 cities lol. It's not fair!
Sampsa, how and why do you have war elephants lol. Looks like you've got the strongest save not only from the wonders but by getting the fish/cow city. That means you can claim whatever you want about HA superiority

 

[Qactus]

@Qactus I'll see about saving GGs for memes

Spoiler :