COTM 04 Pre-Game Discussion

[Mistfit]

Having never played in the GOTM is my presumption correct that this is the one that will start tomorrow?

I've been considering a break from the SGOTM (see the spoons in the av for the reason)

 

[grs]

Yes, it starts on the 1st. When exactly is determined by the graciousness of ainwood. It should be the 1st at his for some time, but it is usually released on the next morning, i.e. in some hours.

 

[klarius]

Conversly I think this map looks ripe for a no-warrior gambit. After settling (where ever that may be), build order - granary, settler, warrior, settler, .......

A warrior ist best done first. After the first settler there will be several shields wasted. At that time you cannot afford wasted shields, because you will probably not have all tiles improved for the factory and are lacking shields for the next settler already.
Warrior first will delay the granary only by 1-2 turns, because in the end of the granary build you should be at 5+ shields.
A perfectly timed forest cut may even mean no delay at all.
That's all only with the tiles visible. Tiles in the fog could change the argumentation.

 

[Mistfit]

It sure would have been nice if Ision would have done one of his great articles on the Mayan for this game. I've never actually used them in a game. This should be fun. Lets just hope I dont have to incoperate an ambulance into my AV

 

[smackster]

A warrior ist best done first. After the first settler there will be several shields wasted. At that time you cannot afford wasted shields, because you will probably not have all tiles improved for the factory and are lacking shields for the next settler already.
Warrior first will delay the granary only by 1-2 turns, because in the end of the granary build you should be at 5+ shields.
A perfectly timed forest cut may even mean no delay at all.
That's all only with the tiles visible. Tiles in the fog could change the argumentation.

Agreed we really need to see the whole picture and then decide the best optimal build order. I would only really skip the first warrior if I could get that first settler out early without too much waste. Then again I've been known to play without thinking before, sometimes its fun to play civ like a real time strat.

smackster

 

[predesad]

It sure would have been nice if Ision would have done one of his great articles on the Mayan for this game. I've never actually used them in a game. This should be fun. Lets just hope I dont have to incoperate an ambulance into my AV

there is an article on the Mayans here

 

[predesad]

If worker stays in place, I would road (since I can't irrigate right off), irrigate, move NW, road BG to bump up gold, move SW, and irrigate wheat. This will irrigate the wheat just as capital expands and can use wheat. Then road wheat, move NE and mine BG, then look for another BG. Roading that first BG will be nice because captial will grow just after it's roaded, giving a non river spot for a citizen to work. With luck there will be a BG on the river as well and production will just zip along.

I have decided my opening moves, my worker will pretty much do what Xevious says, settler will move NE unless we are standing on BG, then maybe N. my reasoning is that we have all we need for the 4 turn settler factory right there, so for the capitol i really dont care or even want additional bonuses, they might be best served in a 2nd or 3rd or 4th city.

as far as production orders, i ran a test and using the above sequence to start worker i built: warrior, warrior, worker, granary (1 cut), settler. At that point my settler factory was up and running fine, i had 2 warriors exploring and 2 workers to really make use of the industrious trait.

if there does turn up luxuries or other bonuses nearby my 2nd or 3rd settler will head there. my 2nd city will become a warrior factory w/ those 2 workers improving it ASAP. basically once i started putting out settler every 4 turns i could not keep up w/ units, so every city will start building warriors (unless i find coast then i'll have to sacrifice warriors for 2 curraghs) until i have 2 warriors in capitol for MP, 3-4 warriors (or 2 warriors / 2 curraghs) exploring, 1 warrior for MP in every other city and one warrior waiting as a settler escort. That will be a lot of warriors needed though, considering about the time my 2nd settler (1st one built) founds a city my next settler will be built, and probably before i can put out that first warrior another settler will be built meaining i will be down 5 warriors. Once i get caught up I'll switch to spearman (provided i get a trade for BW) Of course, I will also be careful not to neglect workers, but having two near the start since I plan to build a second one soon will go a long way.

as far as science, I'll go alphabet all the way to republic slingshot even though i do not normally use republic gov't, i'm going to try it this game. one word to any players not used to large maps. initially, alphabet will take 50 turns to research, however this will quiickly decrease and alphabet can be discovered in 30-35 turns, writing much quicker. In my test I kept science at max, even though this meant running a deficit at times, and got alphabet & writing in about 52 turns, which is much better than going min science for alphabet to start.

a negative in my test was that i did not build enough warirors to start from other cities and around 1200 BC the French were much stronger than I and declared war on me. I had not expanded near their borders yet and I had only even located one French city, they had only located two of my cities, both on the outskirts of my empire. I am hoping to up my warrior output significantly this game to keep that from happening.

 

[ainwood]

a negative in my test was that i did not build enough warirors to start from other cities and around 1200 BC the French were much stronger than I and declared war on me. I had not expanded near their borders yet and I had only even located one French city, they had only located two of my cities, both on the outskirts of my empire. I am hoping to up my warrior output significantly this game to keep that from happening.

And I thought is was the Roman Legionaries that might cause problems, rather than the french. <shrug>

 

[SniperDevil]

whats that supposed to mean???? are we to fear the mighty Romans in this game?

 

[predesad]

And I thought is was the Roman Legionaries that might cause problems, rather than the french. <shrug>

well obviously i did not have the same civs since i dont know what they are, but if rome is in the game and near us then i'll have to trade for IW early, prevent them from ever hooking up to any resource close to them if at all possible and launch a javelin thrower invasion to eliminate them. assuming they have not decided to occupy my cities before i can make that happen. are persia and the greeks and the celts also near us?

 

[ainwood]

Before anyone gets too excited, my comment should not be taken as readign that there are romans in the game. I was just being annoying.

 

[SniperDevil]

well you were just that...

 

[Randy]

Maybe Rome has the only iron.

 

[Groin_Apologist]

I have a couple of clarificationquestions about the settler pump. I downloaded Klarius' mock-up save (thanks, Klarius) to see if I could get one running, and I eventually did. It went something like this:
(Agricultural Mayan City near a river)
Turns 1,2 - city pop 5 - working irr. wheat, 2 mined Grass, and 2 mined
Bonus Grass (lux on 10% to avoid revolt)
Turns 3,4 - city pop 6 - working same as above, plus micromanged 6th
citizen from forest to an unimproved bonus grass. This allowed me
to get the settler in a total of four turns, but I had to up the lux
to 20% to avoid another revolt)
Is this how it is supposed to work, or can it be streamlined better? I note that it took me a bit of time to set this situation up and running, though I admit it took me awhile to figure out the lux fix.
Afterwards, I noticed that someone mentioned to start with a city pop 4 to get the pump going - is a 4-6 pump better than a 5-7 pump? Why?
(Now I'm thinking that the 2nd mined grass is for the micromanaged citizen taken of of the forest - I'll try that now...)
Also - how do I capture a screen from the game to include in a future post?
Thanks in advance.

 

[Cuivienen]

About your 5-7 question -- The Granary empties when the city reaches size 7, so a 5-7 Settler pump doesn't work; growth doesn't happen fast enough at size 7. (In addition to the temporary loss of the "granary effect," sizes 7-12 also require double the food of sizes 1-6 to grow, meaning that, even if the Granary stayed in effect, you'd still need 10 fpt for the last two turns of production!)

To take a Screenshot, press "Print Screen" (above "Delete" and "Insert"), then open Paint or Paint Shop Pro or Photoshop, etc. and Paste (Ctrl-V) the screenshot.

 

[Groin_Apologist]

Hmmn.. tried the 4-6 pump and it didn't work.
Food came out okay, but it looks like I was a couple of shields short - i.e. given the irrigated wheat, when it came to the mined grasslands, it would have to have been

plus 3 bonus grasslands and 1 regular grassland
instead of 2 bonus grasslands and 2 regular grasslands

Does this sound right, or am I doing something wrong?

Also, I still had to raise lux after 2 turns. Is this pretty much standard, or could I drop another warrior in there to garrison and avoid the lux increase?

 

[TheNemesis666]

hmm, i'm at work so I can't check it and my brain is refusing to do the maths. A second warrior will help to reduce lux tax but get one of your other cities to build it for the cap. Did you check the city every growth to make sure you were squeezing out as many shields as possible while keeping the +5fpt? (I'll attempt the maths again and may post shortly)

 

[Xevious]

Hmmn.. tried the 4-6 pump and it didn't work.
Food came out okay, but it looks like I was a couple of shields short - i.e. given the irrigated wheat, when it came to the mined grasslands, it would have to have been

plus 3 bonus grasslands and 1 regular grassland
instead of 2 bonus grasslands and 2 regular grasslands

Does this sound right, or am I doing something wrong?

Also, I still had to raise lux after 2 turns. Is this pretty much standard, or could I drop another warrior in there to garrison and avoid the lux increase?

With granary full, starting at size 4

size Shields  Shields Expanded
4       6     iWheat(0), mBG(2), mBG(2), mG(1), city(1)
4.5     8     iWheat(0), mBG(2), mBG(2), mG(1), city(1), forest(2)
Now micromanage and move citizen from forest to mG (or unminedBG).
5       7     iWheat(0), mBG(2), mBG(2), mG(1), city(1), mG(1)
5.5     9     iWheat(0), mBG(2), mBG(2), mG(1), city(1), mG(1), forest(2)
Total  30

That's the 4-6, and as you can see, you need a forest to make it work. If we get a 3rd mBG then the forest isn't needed. What makes this work is the automatic placement of the citizen on growth to the best production. Because our food surplus is so high, the citizen will be assigned to the forest, giving the immediate 2 shield bonus. You then have to move the citizen off the forest to get back to +5 food (using the forest drops food to +4). I often forget to move the citizen off and lose a turn on the factory. I'll get the settler out in 4 turns, but won't grow at the same time, so you have to pay attention with this. With a third BG we won't have to micromanage (but many still will).

 

[TheNemesis666]

ta xevious, that's why my maths wasn't working, I was forgetting the forrest citizen on growth.

 

[predesad]

you can use either a 4/6 or a 5/6, the way a 5/6 works is the settler will be produced on the same turn the city would have grown to size 7 and so drops to size 5 and the granary does not empty. this requires less micromanagement most times, but an extra turn of luxury because the city stays at size 6 for 2 turns instead of 1. a danger with a 5/6 is if you make a mistake somehow and do not get your settler out on the 4th turn and your city does actually hit size 7 then when you do get your settler out the granary will be empty meaning and extra 2 turns to fill it.