COTM 09 First Spoiler: Ancient Age

[Aeson]

On the other hand, teleportation is completely unrealistic if you look at real life, so I guess I can't argue with it being banned. It seems a littler harsh to disallow Aeson's game since it wasn't a banned exploit prior to today, though. If he posts the best domination date, then I would say he earned it!

EDIT: Nevermind my last comment, I just noticed that Aeson was trying this for educational purposes only.

Yah, the purpose of my playing this was to see if it should be banned. I try to play each C/GOTM enough to get a feel for the gameplay in case issues arise that need to be addressed. My first take on this game was that there was a potential for problems on this map if this exploit was used, and so wanted to address it (hopefully) before it became a problem.

I think it's rather conclusive, but the details would need to wait for a later spoiler (just barely... I only got 2 MA techs and didn't really even need them). What I can say is I exceeded (both date and score) what I could expect to achieve conventionally, playing as well as I can and with good luck, by playing a haphazard and poorly executed game where I had pretty bad luck overall. I would estimate the effect to be somewhere around 50 turns and 3k Jason compared to a similarly well-played conventional game. In a comparison of very well played games it probably would only mean half that though. That still means it would be a required tactic to do well (in the standings) in these types of games if allowed.

Palace Jumping by itself isn't overwhelming in it's effect. IIRC this was the first C/GOTM I've ever jumped the Palace in as I don't think the benefits of the Palace jump are a requirement for a top-flight game, and don't much care for the mechanic. It certainly can give a boost in some cases, especially in GOTM's, but at the most it gains you almost as much as an MGL, which means it's impact on the game is comparable to one lucky combat roll.

Ship chaining again isn't overwhelming. I don't think I've ever set up a ship chain in a C/GOTM either (I have used instances of ship chaining when it presents itself as ships are doing their thing though), as I prefer a large one time landing, overkill if you will, to a consistant stream of units.

I guess what I'm trying to say is exploits are more likely to be ruled on based on how effective they are rather than how realistic.

 

[bradleyfeanor]

It has almost zero cost and can have immense benefits. Sure you give up one peripheral city...

I suppose you are right, and I will not argue against this being banned in any fashion.

I would expect the costs to be much greater than losing a peripheral city though. I am looking forward to seeing Aeson’s results. I guess they were really good, but it seems to me that jumping the palace to the far continent would tank his economy for quite a while. Unless Aeson can capture the surrounding cities and make them productive very, very quickly, it seems it would not work out any better than researching to Navigation and Military Tradition as quickly as possible, then conquering the traditional way. I guess I am missing something. Aeson will probably do something in his game that makes it much more decisive than I envision.

EDit due to cross post: 3k!!! Holy crap, now I can't wait to see your game!

 

[A'AbarachAmadan]

It does seem to me that this game has somewhat larger luck elements than usual.

Although absolutely annoying this game with all of my sinking ships, this doesn't bother me much. I've had games where I had 3 leaders in less than a dozen elite combats. This can be a big deal when going for domination or conquest. Of course, this game the gods have decided my Irish luck is on holiday and its arch-nemisis came to visit.

 

[solenoozerec]

It seems much like ship chaining to me, which isn't banned.

No-no-no-no. Just do not bun ship chaining. Not in this game, please.
I tried it in this game for a first time (I did not realize how powerful this technic is until i tried it). I am not against prohibiting it, just give a worning in advance and let me do it in this game.
However, if ship chaining will not become prohibited, I am going to use it even on pangaea from now.

 

[Darkness]

Dutch and Hittites do.
And, with Huts and 3 EXP Civs, everything is possible. The AI could obviously get Philo around 1300BC, or still lack it at 900BC. So, a successful slingshot required at foremost luck. Unless you were stupid enough to give away Writing early, in which case it would have been your fault to miss it.

It's better to be lucky than to be good...

Sorrry, Doc, I posted that from the top of my head when I wasn't at home, so I couldn't check my game. Sure, the Dutch and Hittites start with alphabet, but typical AI research capacity pre 1500BC in a monarch game usually isn't much good. They could've easily gotten writing but they didn't prioritise it. The Dutch built the Colossus pretty early so they most likely went for BW first and the Hittites went for masonry (I think), 'cause they built the Pyramids before I entered the MA.
As for GH's and exp civs: Monarch level AI civ don't get a huge lot of benefits from GH's, in my (limited) experience. I didn't think it likely that they'd get writing and philosophy from huts (and alphabet too for some).

I very much disagree on the luck though. Focussing full on science (with or without pottery first) and the republic slingshot, should get most players a succesful shot at an early republic. IMHO you were just very unlucky not to get it...

 

[MiniMe]

I was not impressed by AI research in AA. None had philo / CoL when I made most of my contacts 1200BC - 800BC. When I got as far as the Americans (probably one of the last contacts) they didnt even have alphabet

I was even forced to self research both currency and construction in order to enter MA in 550BC.

They improved after I gifted them republic beginning of MA.

 

[klarius]

I guess they were really good, but it seems to me that jumping the palace to the far continent would tank his economy for quite a while.

If the FP is already in the old holdings the economy will stay fine as long as there are not many cities around the new palace. If you only have 12 or so cities in total, rank corruption is not a big problem. And distance corruption is handled by the FP.
If you then just keep a few good cities and raze everything else on the new continent, you still can have lots of money from the original island and production from the new core.
Base firaxis score will be low, but because of the flaws of Jason scoring you can still get an incredible Jason score with an early conquest.

I thought about palace jumping (only conventional after navigation and with a leader), but then gave up on it (next spoiler ).

 

[bradleyfeanor]

If the FP is already in the old holdings the economy will stay fine as long as there are not many cities around the new palace. If you only have 12 or so cities in total, rank corruption is not a big problem. And distance corruption is handled by the FP.
If you then just keep a few good cities and raze everything else on the new continent...

Well that is a bundle of information! Indeed, it changes everything. Thanks Klarius. I guess I knew, theoretically, that the FP countered distance corruption, but I have never used it in such an extreme case so I didn't make the connection.

I should have jumped my palace and troops then...well, except for the small matter that it would have disqualified my game. I will have to keep this in mind for a possible jump this game (although it will be a bit late for it), as well as for future starts on small islands.

 

[Offa]

It is indeed intriguing to see how well Aeson did with this exploit, but really using it would be an insult to Renata's carefully constructed monster.

Teleporting troops is clearly wrong.

I would also like ship chains banned, not because they are overpowered, but because they are tedious to use.

 

[Più Freddo]

In honour of the mighty goddess Renata Ragnar Lodbrok founded the city
of Trondheim in a year which was later to be known as 4000 BC on a
fair hill by the sea. He immediately sent out his workers to mine the
grasslands west of his capital while he collected arms for a warrior
troop to investigate the lands he later wanted to claim. As the mine
was being connected by road, Ragnar prepared a curragh to explore the
seas and then another warrior troop. Only after proper reconnaissance
was Ragnar prepared to send out the women and children, which were now
steadily collecting in his capital, to found a new city. Ragnar was a
mild ruler, a father for his people, which he wanted to grow and
prosper and peacefully claim the surely good lands gifted to him by
Renata.

The first party found in the west and then in the south many hills, a
coastline where the shoals in two places were rife with fish and in
between plains where mastodons roamed, to the east drying out into a
sandy desert. The little boat sent out north followed the coastline
and soon -- alas, too soon! -- rounded the island. They said there
were volcanoes and jungle up north, which was then confirmed by
Ragnar's second exploration party. The island to the south of the
mainland was very small indeed and towards the horizon only a
threatening black sea was seen! No more than this has the mighty
goddess granted! Hard work is before us. There are forests to fell and
jungle to clear so that fresh water can be used to farm the barren
plains. Cities must be founded tightly along the coast. The ocean must
be explored. Who knows -- maybe there is someone out there?

Renata had indeed not been in a generous mood! Had his sacrifices been
too small? Ragnar now more often seeked consolation and advice from
his high priest, Più Freddo. It was said he was of Viking blood, but
it was now not easy to tell. Many years in foreign lands had made him
wise but somewhat aloft.

Ragnar set most of his gold and sometimes a few citizens aside for
scientific purposes. First he discovered how he could store his grains
and so make his people grow faster. No more would the Viking starve in
winter! Then to the dismay of the populace, Più Freddo convinced
Ragnar to learn how to write down laws and then, fancy that, found a
school for discussions! Over their spades and behind their ploughs,
the people were shaking their heads. Them ackerdemicks are sure fine
and dandy, but what about our everyday needs?

Soon a party of settlers were preparing in Trondheim. Whither would
they wander? The fishing shoals to the south were inviting, but the
fish alone would not be enough for a larger settlement, and before
water could be led from lake Limfjorden in the north or a harbour be
constructed, centuries would pass. Besides, what useful objects can be
made out of fish bones? Instead, Bergen was founded in 2800 BC on a
coastal hill north-east of Trondheim, where fish was plentiful and the
grasslands were wide and rich. Granaries had now become the fashion of
the day, and in both Trondheim and Bergen they were built with locally
harvested timber, and a road was built between the two cities. A
teeming little realm was set soon to fill the whole Viking mainland
and the small southern island. For such were the plans of Ragnar.

The little curragh had been sent out over the ocean to find new lands
to the east of the little island in the south. After a century and a
half, nothing more was ever heard of it. A second curragh was sent to
the north, where the sea promisingly extended far into the ocean, but
it was also soon lost. Ragnar was furious! He now sent out his own son
Björn to find other lands, and indeed, in 1625 BC, after crossing the
wide ocean, land was sighted and contact soon taken with the exotic
tribe of the Hittites. Björn travelled on and soon made acquaintance
with the Chinese, the Celts, the Americans, the Zulu, the Babylonians
and in 520 BC the backwards Dutch people.

As it was heard that the other tribes in the world had knowledge of
all kinds of down-to-earth, useful skills, the people demanded that
Ragnar trade away his knowledge of writing, but Ragnar refused. Only
slowly, cunningly trading it between the other tribes, would Ragnar
gain knowledge from the other tribes of these things, which Più Freddo
had convinced him were of lesser value. At last his steadfastness bore
fruit when in 1250 BC Philosophy was learned and the Republic
immediately deviced as a new form of government. For a while even
Ragnar had wavered in his belief, as the Hittite tribe on its own
deviced a form of writing while Ragnar had not established his legal
codex yet.

Unbeknownst to Ragnar, Più Freddo had secretly fomented unrest using a
mystical power he talked about as "the big picture". When Ragnar
wanted to instigate the establishment of a Viking Republic, anarchy
had spread in the land and even showed signs to die out in the next
100 years, so he could simply hide in his palace and in 1150 BC step
forward to consolidate his continued supreme rule over the Viking
people as its new Consul.

The attention of Ragnar was now set on finding out how to build better
boats, which would be faster and could carry passengers, and how to
create a great edifice which would make them travel faster than ever
before. In the mean time, four cities were founded on coastal hills,
one in the desert. The city of Copenhagen was founded inland by lake
Limfjorden and it had a military camp built with local timber. Where
the forest had stood, irrigated fields now lay, and the water slowly
was being led further and further to the south-east by ever-growing
teams of toiling workers.

In the jungle, and for a while also in the south-eastern hills, there
were camps of savages and robbers, so the Viking soldiers were often
out on sometimes profitable expeditions. As Ragnar would not train and
equip most of his forces properly, they were mostly simple warriors.
Some were lost and not all were replaced. In many Viking cities there
were now no military stationed at all! But all went well, and the
occasional barbarian intrusion could never cause any harm to land or
city.

Volcano eruptions in the northern parts made the land unsafe and
settlement went slowly starting along the eastern shoreline. The
winning of fine gems in the central mountains had given the Viking
civilization a welcome source of pleasure.

Savage pirates on the high seas were a bigger nuisance than expected,
and at one occasion, a group of galleys laden with a troop of spearmen
and a settler community was sunk man and all just off the southern
island! It cost Ragnar both time and money to quickly set up a new
colonization unit, and the city of Stavanger was founded on the tundra
only in 950 BC.

In 430 BC, Ragnars knowledge had become so great that his historians
talked of a new era in human development. In nine Viking cities, 29
myriads of people lived. 10 groups of labourers were employed and
Ragnar could muster 1 archer, 3 spearman and 3 warrior troops, he had
1 curragh and 1 galley group. In Trondheim, a great lighthouse was
rising towards the sky. The Dutch had built the Colossos in Amsterdam
in 1050 BC, and the Hittites the Oracle in Hattusas in 850 BC.

 

[Renata]

With regards to the luck required in crossing the wide oceans -- how do I say this without violating my own spoiler rules -- the odds are better than those for making the inter-continental crossing in the recent China GOTM. Seafaring boats can go a long way, on average.

And since a few people have brought up the volcanos -- there were actually four of them on the prototype map. I edited one out.

Renata

 

[Dynamic]

I would also like ship chains banned, not because they are overpowered, but because they are tedious to use.

No, ship chaining very useful tactics and I don't see anything wrong with it. It requares many ships for moving a couple of units for 1 turn. This ships must be build and are payed from cash as normal units. IIRC this feature was in previous versions of Civilization (1 and 2). I even don't understand how it is appeared in exploit list.

I never used units teleportation but I think this tactics more useful for classic version. I'm waiting for Aeson's result but if his prediction about 50 turns leading will be right I may be agree with excluding his result.
If to be serious I think only very good player can get benefit from this tactics and it only confirms Aeson is one of the best player.

P.S. May be Renata starts a second spoiler slightly early if this game is so short?

 

[Dynamic]

I thought this wasn’t too bad, but then I saw Dynamic’s QSC stats: wow!

Don't forget I have paid for this by later contacts and the big amount of empty reseach turns.

 

[Tubby Rower]

After reading some of the other posts here, it appears as though I was extremely lucky (curraph suicide worked first time). This is the best start that I ever had. I've learned a lot for dman, Bede, A-K, others in my succession games. Thanks guys!! I wouldn't have been able to get this far if I hadn't learned so much from you. I might even be able to post a win.

To answer some of Renata's questions:

So, now that the do's and don't's are out of the way ---
How did you attempt to make the most of your marginal territory? Did any of the volcanos get you? What wonders did you go for, if any? Find any use for the Statue of Zeus? And what about foreign affairs? How aggressive were you in seeking out the AIs, and how easy or difficult did you find it to keep current in research? Any tales of AI-manipulation to relate?

• The territory sucked and workers we almost more important than new settlers. I figured that we might be alone from the pre-game discusion and decided on no warriors at all!
• None of the volcanoes erupted on improvements/units, although I think one has already erupted twice.
• I definately went for the Great LightHouse since I thought that we were alone, no others during Ancient Times.
• no SoZ since Beserks were the way for me
• I knew I had to find the other AI in order to keep up in techs, so very aggressive

Here is the QSC log...
4000 - Worker1 move NW to BG
Trondheim founded -> curraph citizen working BG to NW
research max on Pottery
3950 - Worker1 mine
3900 - zz
3850 - zz
3800 - zz
3750 - zz
3700 - zz
3650 - Worker1 done -> road
Trondheim curraph -> curraph
curraph headed North
3600 - zz
3550 - see gems & volcano erupting with curraph
3500 - culture expands and gain another citizen -> jumbos for gold (Pottery in 2)
Worker1 road done move SW to BG
science down to 80% to conserve 1G
3450 - Worker1 mine
3400 - Pottery -> Writing @ min
Trondheim citizens working mined BG & forest
Trondheim production swithced to granary
3350 - zz
3300 - forest citizen moved to BG. Now Granary assured to be built when (or before) growth happens
3250 - zz
3200 - starting to see we might be secluded
3150 - worker1 done with mine -> road
3100 - suicide start with curraph
3050 - zz
3000 - zz
worker1 road done move to jumbo
2950 - Trondheim granary -> settler
worker1 road jumbo
2900 - curraph sees light blue border (hey wait they have a flood plain!!!! booo)
up lux to 10% due to growth (extra worker on oasis)
2850 - Meet Hittites (They have BW & CB and I have WC)
can get CB & 10G for WC
can get BW for WC, 47G & 1gpt
no deals
2800 - road to jumbos done -> move NE-N to BG reduce lux back to 0
2750 - curraph sees pink border
worker1 mine
2710 - Trondheim settler -> archer
see river in the fog. move settler up there
trade China Masonry, BW for Alpha, Pottery & 18G
2670 - Hittites are researching WC trade got more expensive
2630 - settler climbs mountain to see fresh water
2590 - Hittites got MAsonry. want arm & leg for CB
Trondhiem swithced to settler due in 3
2550 - Hittites must be popping huts left & right they learned WC
Bergen founded NE of lake -> worker
2510 - worker1 mine done road
2470 - Trondhiem settler -> archer setter to 1 NE of fish on western coast
China got the Wheel
2430 - zz
2390 - Copenhagen founded NE of fish -> barracks
worker1 done move to hill W of Copen
curraph sees green border
2350 - Meet Celts the have TW & CB (same as China)
get TW out of China for 3gpt +81g -> take it
I see horses!!
Celts have IW too
2310 - zz
2270 - zz
2230 - Trondheim builds Archer -> Settler
2190 - zz
2150 - Bergen builds worker -> worker move to road western forest
The Hittites are the scourge of the Earth they will now not trade me TW for CB even straight up
2110 - MM Copen off of mined BG
road to Copen done moved worker1 to oasis to mine & road
worker2 starts road
curraph sees light blue border
Copen back on mined BG -> Trondheim on 4th BG NE-NE
2070 - sees more blue border but no contact yet
2030 - Americans met; only have CB but missing Alpha and Wheel - will trade straight up for either, I'll wait a couple of turns
Copen builds barracks. start pumping out archers
Meet Shaka Zulu. He has on CB
trade Abe the Wheel for CB since Zulu has it already
Celts & China are up to IW & Myst
1990 - Trade Abe IW for Alpha & 26G
Trade Shaka Myst for Alpha straight up (Screw up Mao & Brennus)
Trade Hittites 86 G for Myst
No iron but didn't expect any since UU doesn't need it
Trondheim builds settler -> curraph
Settler to hill by Northern Jumbo
WOW good turn!
1950 - Archer sees small (has to only be a couple of tiles) island to the south of Iceland
1910 - zz
1870 - Worker2 done -> move S
1830 - Worker1 done -> road oasis
Trondheim curraph -> settler
curraph2 to explore southern island
Reykjavik founded N of northern jumbo -> Barracks
Worker2 road
1790 - Meet Babylonians (they're missing the wheel and Myst)
China & Celts learn HBR
buy HBR from Celts for 1gpt & 131 (10 more than China wanted but China is rolling in it so Celts must have bought from Mao)
Sell HBR to Lincoln for 76 g, Hittites for 42G (118 total)
1750 - Bergen worker -> worker move s to start developing Copen
Copen archer -> archer
southern island is 3 tiles
1725 - worker1 done roading oasis -> move to bg near Reykjavik
1700 - zz
1675 - worker1 mine
worker3 on jumbo -> mine
curraph2 sees barb camp at south end of island after settler build done next turn archer will be dispatched
1650 - Trondheim settler -> curraph
due to barb activity in the south settler sent to the north
Archer from Copen sent to deal with barbs
meet the Dutch don't have Myst, HBR, or Masonry ->9 gold = no trade
1625 - zz
1600 - Celts get Writing & sell to China. I'm 6 turns away darn it
Archer sacks barb camp for 25 g
1575 - worker3 done -> S one more tile
1550 - Trondheim curraph -> settler
Reykjavik barracks -> archer
settler sees barbs in north too!!!
1525 - worker3 done start roading to horse
found Oslo even though barb is close -> barracks
Bergen worker -> worker
Worker4 starts choping jungle
1500 - Brennus builds embassy in capitol
Archer takes out barb on mountain dangerously close to 2 cities
1475 - Trondheim curraph -> settler
Writing -> MM @ 70%
1450 - Copen swithced to settler
inc. sci to max
1425 - zz
1400 - zz
1375 - zz
1350 - China got Math and Celts bought it for everything that they had
1325 - Trondheim settler -> settler
Copen settler -> settler
one goes north the other to the horses
1300 - Reykjavik archer -> archer
worker2 joins worker 4 in clearing jungle
circumnavigated the foriegn continent
1275 - Oslo barracks -> archer
1250 - Abe comes out of nowhere with Poly.
Stockholm founded on horses -> curraph
Bergen worker -> worker
worker5 to help clear jungle
trade Celts Math for 218
trade Abe Poly for Writing, Math 66g & 10 gpt
trade China Poly for 393g
trade Celts poly for 236g
trade Hittites math for 75g
switched to Philosophy 8 turns to go with 100% reseach (-14)
1225 - curraph ambushed by barb galley
Birka founded near northern gems -> barracks
worker5 start clearing forest
exploring curraph set to try the ocean traverse again
Reykjavik switched to settler
Trondheim changed to ToA pre-Build for GLH
MM Copenhagen for gold (Phil due in 6)
1200 - Celts get MM - will trade 664 for it -> not right now
trade Dutch HBR for 9G
worker1 moved to start chopping jungle
1175 - ZZ
1150 - exploration curraph headed home
1125 - curraph still alive
jungle cleared 4 & 5 move to help 1 clear 2 road
hire 5 scientists to get Phil down to 1 turn (previously 2)
1100 - Get Phil then select Construction get free -> then CoL (10 turns put citizens back to work)
curraph still alive
1075 - curraph sunk
1050 - Reykjavik builds settler -> archer head to hill on north
Worker2 done with road -> mine
trade Hittites MM for Poly straight up
1025 - Trondheim switched to GLH (due in 25)
Reykjavik switched to harbor
1000 - Celts demand Phil and I tell him to stuff it. He might be first target
Bergen worker -> worker
worker6 start roading gems
Copehagen archer -> archer
Oslo archer -> archer

QSC stats -
score - 5678 (according to crpStats)
7 cities
12 citizens
577 gold
1 settler
6 workers
8 archers
3 curraphs
All civs known

Resources -
Ivory - 2800BC
Horses - 1250BC
Gems (not connected yet)

Suicide runs & Techs -
1st curraph suicide run start - 3100BC -> successful
WC - free tech
Alpha - free tech
Pottery - 3400BC self-researched
Masonry - 2710BC from China
BW - 2710BC from China
The Wheel - 2350BC from China
CB - 2030BC from America
IW - 1990BC from America
Myst - 1990BC from Zulu
HBR - 1790BC from Celts
Writing - 1475BC self-researched
Math - 1250BC Celts
Poly - 1250BC America
Phil - 1100BC self-researched
Constr - 1100BC slingshot tech
MM - 1050BC from Hittites

Other notes:
CoL self-researched in 875BC
Currency self-researched about 550BC
In Middle Ages

Future Plans:
build archers & boats. Upgrade to galleys & Beserks. Go get the other civs. Did it work? see you next spoiler

 

[Offa]

It does seem to me that this game has somewhat larger luck elements than usual.

When I got Writing I had low research capacity and I'd delayed to do Pottery first. I thought the odds of making the Republic slingshot were poor. I figured that if most of the other Civs had contacted each other quickly, and/or they had good hut luck, and/or a few of them had high gold start positions then there wouldn't be much chance of making the slingshot. So I didn't try. It looks like I was wrong and the slingshot actually had reasonably good odds. But still not great odds and luck will therefore result in some people not getting it even though they play much the same as others who do get it.

Another thing comes from the unusual map combined with being seafaring. With good luck on this map one's first suicide curragh might reach a remote Civ. With bad luck a lot of curraghs might sink before one makes it. Neither case is extremely improbable on this map. So we'll probably see a fair bit of variance coming from this factor too.

With slight trepedation I am going to say I don't agree with this, not because I don't think luck is involved, but because it doesn't seem any worse than usual. I'd like to think I am not biased by my luck (successful slingshot, and first curragh meeting everyone ).

The republic slingshot is always a bit of a lottery, and is one of the things I dislike about c3c. However, getting it to work in a Monarch game is surely more likely than in demigod games, which some people have been doing, even allowing for the lousy start position. That said, I would definitely vote for removing the free tech with philosophy.

Re the curraghs. It was very nice to sail straight over and meet the AI, especially before those supercharged barb galleys showed up. However, I didn't find the new knowledge gained all that helpful, as I was so isolated and undeveloped. In GOTM 38, it would have been much more helpful to make early contacts, and I would much rather have had the good luck in that game. As I said at the time, bringing back differential naval movement would help this.

Even more of a lottery was the opening build decision. I presume Dynamic built a granary from the off, and this helped him to outexpand everyone else.
I built warrior, curragh, settler first, and even though that curragh met up with the AI, I would probably have been better building the granary to start with.

 

[solenoozerec]

I very much disagree on the luck though. Focussing full on science (with or without pottery first) and the republic slingshot, should get most players a succesful shot at an early republic.

I researched phil in 1275BC. I got free Republic, but I also noticed that America already has Phil. So I concluded that we researched it on the same turn.
So in my game America researched Phil without external help at 1275BC.

And I repeat: I did trade alphabet to only a single nation that appeared to not know it at the time when I met them (it also was the last nation I met). I did not trade writing to anyone before I got Republic.

After that it was an easy run for philosophy and republic as my free tech in 1250BC, because I was first in GNP by a 40-50% margin...

I am wondering what would you say about luck after researching Phil at 1250BC and not getting free republic .
I think I was very lucky to make it one turn before. Slingshot was a risky business in this game (I just did not realize it. SirPleb did and he did not even try).

There is a wide range of AI research capacity triggered by the presence of three expansionist civilizations (what they get when they pop a goody hut depends on RNG). In MiniMe game, his Americans did not know even alphabet. My Americans knew all what I knew and four more techs when I met them. My Americans were clearly more lucky with goody huts than other civs. I would like to see a spoiler from someone who played a game in which all three expansionist civilizations were as lucky as my Americans.

 

[Kuningas]

After reading Dynamic's QSC stats. I would take early granary. I did not and result is average. Though I had luck with
curraghs. Initial build were Cur->Cur->Settler->Granary. I pulled Republic slingshot
in 1250BC and entered MA in 630bc.

1000BC stats
12 Citizens
7 towns
2 Granary
1 settler
8 workers
1 archer
All AA techs except Currency, Construction, Literature, Polytheism and Monarchy.

 

[Dynamic]

There is a wide range of AI research capacity triggered by the presence of three expansionist civilizations (what they get when they pop a goody hut depends on RNG). In MiniMe game, his Americans did not know even alphabet. My Americans knew all what I knew and four more techs when I met them. My Americans were clearly more lucky with goody huts than other civs. I would like to see a spoiler from someone who played a game in which all three expansionist civilizations were as lucky as my Americans.

In my game Americans was the only one who know Polytheism and they also discovered Monarchy but loose war against Zulu and was reduced to 2 cities.
My AI were average developed. When I met them in 875BC (trading started later) they know all early techs exept Code of Low, Republic, Currency, Construction and Monarchy. I traded successfully and sold only Code of Low in exchange for all other techs and money because many of AI didn't know about its neighbors!

When China discovered Construction in 450BC I exchange it for Currency discovered by myself and gift Babylon in hope he get Monotheizm as free tech. I was lucky with it, Babylon got Mono. I thought I must give them Republic for Mono but at the same time Americans discovered Monarchy and after trading for it Babylon took Monarchy for Monotheizm. So I got Mono and didn't gave Republic to AI. Strange thing, usually it's not so easy.

Sorry, I write some information from MA but I'm misuderstanding: the rules aren't allowed talking about MA tech, but many people discuss about free MA techs in the different spoilers.

About my early granary: I built it in 3000BC (first was warrior). It isn't ASAP but I got Pottery in 3450BC (11 turns) and I built granary when my city was size 2 (I slightly break it) and in the next turn it stay size 3 with half food in storage. So my capital grew to size 4 by 4 turns faster (1 turn breaked). And when I break my city growth by 1 turn I replaced citizen on the coast tile and this 1 additional commerce was enough for reducing Pottery researching from 12 turns to 11.

 

[MiniMe]

I was lucky with it, Babylon got Mono. I thought I must give them Republic for Mono but at the same time Americans discovered Monarchy and after trading for it Babylon took Monarchy for Monotheizm. So I got Mono and didn't gave Republic to AI. Strange thing, usually it's not so easy.

Funny to hear that, well not really actually In my game Babs also got Monotheism but I had huge problems trading for it. I offered Monarchy (2 other civs had it) + Republic (monopoly) and but they were still not ready to trade. I had to chip in another 20gpt! But I just had to have it. And I didnt break the deal either since I was hoping to make more deals with the AIs. I gave republic and monotheism to all other civs in hope that they would help my research. More about that in next spoiler.

 

[bradleyfeanor]

Funny to hear that, well not really actually In my game Babs also got Monotheism but I had huge problems trading for it. I offered Monarchy (2 other civs had it) + Republic (monopoly) and but they were still not ready to trade. I had to chip in another 20gpt! But I just had to have it. And I didnt break the deal either since I was hoping to make more deals with the AIs. I gave republic and monotheism to all other civs in hope that they would help my research. More about that in next spoiler.

This difference in the value of Mono is quite interesting. It was pricey in my game too. Hammy wouldn't give it up for Republic (at monopoly) and a bundle of gold at first, nor for Republic and Monarchy (both at 3rd civ price) a few turns later. I finally had to give him Rupublic as well as a MA tech for it.