COTM 09 First Spoiler: Ancient Age

[dmanakho]

@planetfall: Please don't take it personally, but all your frustrations are your own fault... If you don't enjoy the game or if it seems too hard for you - don't play it... that is what i usually do instead of complaining about misfortunes.
Wait until there is another GOTM on regent level or on monarch with couple of cows in startup position. We have so many different players and every given GOTM won't please everyone. I am sure there will be games to come you will enjoy. This one just happens to be outside of your play style. Again you can't please every single player out there. That is why there is a different difficulty level every month.

Personally I really enjoyed MAs and weren't we supposed to have second spoiler thread to be opened by now?

 

[bradleyfeanor]

Question: how do you read the logs and review the threads of the game to improve your play? What do you use as a trigger, ah hah, this I have to remember next time?

Good question with a good answer. I'm putting together a response for you, but it will take me a bit of time.

 

[Renata]

Personally I really enjoed MAs and weren't we supposed to have second spoiler thread to be opened by now?

A few more hours. Patience patience.

Renata

 

[planetfall]

@planetfall: Please don't take it personally, but all your frustrations are your own fault... If you don't enjoy the game or if it seems too hard for you - don't play it... that is what i usually do instead of complaining about misfortunes.
...
Again you can't please every single player out there. That is why there is a different difficulty level every month.

Frustrations are my fault-- this does not ring true. The problem is variance between expections of someone who plays these games very intermittently and others who may play the game regularly.

I didn't say the game was too hard. I said it was not fun. Sometimes a hard game is fun, and I'm glad some enjoyed this game.

Complaining-- not really. If you reread my posts, you will see the main point is not that I had misfortunes, rather it is that my experience may be typical of new or intermittent GOTM/COTM players. The hope is that by providing more information in the intro to this particular COTM page, frustrations will be reduced and more players will be encouraged to play more of these games. Real complaining would have been something like: UU is ruined by game design, [constrained more than expected, but not ruined], there is no fresh water available and it's impossible to win [untrue], or this game functions at the semi-deity level and is advertised as a regent difficulty game [untrue].

Yes I had misfortunes, but that is expected. I forgot about barbs and lost a few pieces. The biggest lesson I learned is that 2 lux is enough for Republic. I had thought I really needed 3. I made a mistake of getting Monarchy and then later switching to Republic. That one lesson made the AE worthwhile and the game a good learning experience.

I'm a bit constrained on time this month, so don't know if will replay. If I do, it will probably be just the first part of the game, so I can test out a CRp game comparison tool.

I understand about difficulty levels. I know some enjoy the game at levels above emperor. Personally I don't enjoy those games so skip them, but agree they should be offered. I don't care if cows are available at the start or not. Cows simply speed up the game a bit, but are not an important criteria for a fun game.

PF

 

[peacemonger]

Complaining-- not really. If you reread my posts, you will see the main point is not that I had misfortunes, rather it is that my experience may be typical of new or intermittent GOTM/COTM players. PF

Just another perspective from a "new or intermittent" player. This is my very first GOTM/COTM. I am in the still earlyish stages of my very first succession game.

I am actually finding this game as-advertised. I recall the description stating that it would be harder than your average Monarch game, and intuition suggested that Vikings on an "unusual" map might present creative challenges for using the UU. I also read through the pre-game thread to find out how the more sophisticated players were thinking, and found it to be extremely helpful in preparing for the game. I kept a log and submitted QSC even though I don't expect a particularly good score. These things are time committments and I definitely won't always have time to do them, but I think they will have improved the fun and the value of the game to me tremendously.

I do agree that reading even a detailed log is tricky absent discussion. The best way to make use of the logs of the great players, IMO, is time-consuming but it works -- restart the game with the log in hand, and shadow the turns. This may just be because of my own kinetic learning style; for others, reading may be enough.

 

[Dynamic]

At the moment when I discovered my island and notified so small and not good lands I was very disappointed. But some minits later I changed my opinion. This map has a big difference from previous and is requared slightly another methods of playing. But it's very interesting for regular players! I agree, for new player this map is not a present. But it's challenge and I think everybody want to play better then other in this hard environment.

 

[Randy]

@ planetfall, I have to say I felt the same. But my reason was I like to attack as soon as I can, with this map I could not do that. Plus the window for the UU was very small. But in all the game was still fun, not my best score.

 

[planetfall]

Good question with a good answer. I'm putting together a response for you, but it will take me a bit of time.

The previous frustration with reading log files was they tell you what happened but there is usually no clue as to WHY decisions were made. It is the WHY part that is transferable. The what will vary with each game.

PF

 

[juballs2001]

another question, can i submit more than 1 game? and will u take the highest score or what?

 

[al_thor]

I just can't resist this invitation. It'll be only my view on certain aspects of your game, so please just take notice of the things you think migtht be hulpful for you.

Thanks for the opinions, they are certainly food for thought.

Moderator Action: Quote edited for length. Please only quote the parts of a previous post that you are commenting on specifically. Duplicating a long post to no good purpose is a waste of bandwidth

 

[AlanH]

@juballs: No. You are not allowed to replay for a different result at any point in the game, including the end.

 

[bradleyfeanor]

Well, I got caught up in all sorts of projects at work so I didn't have time to put together the detailed post I wanted to, but here is a very, very abbreviated version. I am going to try to put together a more thorough one soon, for the intended audience of new players.

1) Read the War Academy and the list of common acronyms

I think you have already done this, so I will not go into further reasons as to why.

2) Play and Post!

Some of the best tips I have received have come in response to my posts. For example, a few games back I posted about establishing rings around my Forbidden Palace in order to counter corruption. Immediately, AlanH and some of the other guys spotted it and then explained why I didn't need ring city placement around the forbidden palace. I get good advice like that all the time, and each little bit makes my game better.

And you were right earlier, explaining the "why" is more important than explaining the "what." When I take the time to put together a good post, I invariably get better feedback.

Unfortunately, I think some of the newer players, or those who played losing games, get intimidated and do not post to the threads. I wish they would. It would make the game threads more interesting, and it would also help out the newer players by showing them what NOT to do, just as they currently get to see what TO do. In time, it would also lead to more top level players.

3) Try to play for the same victory condition as the top players

Obviously, if you want an award, you might not want to do this. But if you want to learn, this is definitely the way to go. For example, in the last game (GOTM 38) I had the mixed blessing of picking the same victory condition as Sir Pleb: domination. As a result, our games were much more comparable than they would have been when going for different conditions. I learned so much from his posts in that game that I will not even try to list them all, but a couple of biggies were the value of early libraries and early workers when playing on a somewhat isolated island start. Both of those came in handy for this game, I might add.

4) As mentioned earlier, participate in the QSC.

You don't really need to delve into the logs. I seldom do unless I am looking for a particular bit of information. The beauty in the QSC now is in the automated tools that Alan has set up. When you visit the site you will see what I mean. You can compare almost every part of your development at 1000bc to others with the click of a button. You can also see how the others performed after the QSC to a degree. Very handy.

Of course, there is one catch. You have to create a log to participate in the QSC, and that leads to number 5...

5) Keep a log of your game

This is especially important for new players. This isn't only to be able to compare your game to other's later, but because it makes a person think before they hit the end turn button. If you write notes about why you are doing something, or about what your plan is in the next 20 turns, then your turns tend to be more focused.

There's much more, but I will have to get back to this at a later date. The bottom line is that I think you should jump into the competition with both feet: play, post and interact. If you do, there is no doubt your game will get better. You may even get to the point where, heaven forbid, you might enjoy a deity game!

 

[LKendter]

Since the effect of early Republic is crucial, I' afraid the results in this game will largely not depend on skills, but plain simply luck. Same is true for successful suicide runs with the very first Curragh,

I must agree with this. I can't believe how early some people made contact. I wasted quite a few ships before making contact way late in the ancient age. 50 plus turns of later contact put a hurt on my 20K plans.

Ancient Age:
After seeing the map I decided to go with a 20K attempt. The land is so poor that I felt I had a better chance at wonders by building a granary first. I won't be able to pull of the typical worker merge planning. It is clear that map making will be key on this map.

Cultural buildings complete during this age are: Colossus (1525 BC), Temple (1375 BC), Zeus after just missing the Pyramids forcing a premature GA (670 BC), Great Lighthouse (130 BC) hopefully letting me get some contacts, Library (50 BC), and Great Library (410 AD).

10 BC sees massive uprisings while I still need 5 ancient age techs. Since I haven't found another civ, that isn't to far behind.

350 AD has a miracle when after throwing away several ships I meet the Zulu. The sad part is they are more advanced then me. All it does is to let me research at second civ prices. I find America the very next turn. 410 AD has contact with the Celts. The next turn the GL completes, and gives me the techs to get to the Middle Ages.

A landmass with this much water around it is just sadistic. There is no chance trading resources / luxuries before Navigation / Magnetism.

 

[Aeson]

[edit]Moved to the proper spoiler thread[/edit]

 

[Ljdjr]

Open, AIpatrol on.

My Goals for this game was to speed my early development, and to trade more Technology with the AI.
Any feedback is always appreciated. I also wanted to focus my notes on Techs and Trades. One last thing was to play faster.

4000BC - Trondheim founded
3250BC - Pottery learned
2900BC - Bergen founded
2000BC - Writing mastered
1950BC - Writing and 15 gold gets The Wheel, BW, CB (forgot to write who with)
Writing gets IW and 10 gold (ditto)

1790BC - Writing gets 80 gold from Zulus
1650BC - IW gets Masonry and 25 gold from Americans
1450BC - Writing gets Myst from America
1300 - MapM gets HBR plus 10 gold from Zulus
MapM and HBR gets Poly from America
Poly gets 45 gold from Zulus

1200BC - Hittites get Philo, then COL
1050BC - Some Maths discovered
Maths plus 20 gold gets Phil from Hittites
Maths plus 50 gold gets COL from Babylonians
" gets 80 gold from Celts
" warrants 14 gold from China

QSC MapStats Score: 3694, 7 cities, 12 Pop, 5 Workers, 8 Warriors, and 2 Settlers.
Map of 1000 BC

925 BC - Hittites demand 27 gold. I refuse and they Declare. Hope they don't come for me

470 BC - Republic brainstormed
390 BC - Hittites sign Babylonia and Zulu to war against us.
370 BC - Successfully use the Big Picture to lower Anarchy from 6 to 5 turns!
Establish Embassy with China.
Trade Republic to China getting MA vs Babylonia and Zulus, plus Construction and 52 gold

350 BC - Trade Construction to America for MA vs Zulu
310 BC - Dutch beat me to Great Lighthouse, by about 4 turns. I switch to SOZ in 2. Change prior SOZ build to Aqueduct in 7.

210 BC - Currency rang up. Middle Ages entered. And nobody even knows Literature!

Map of 210 BC

 

[Gato Loco]

COTM 9 – Filthy Hairy Viking Warmongers From the Other Side of the World!


According to legend, the souls of the wicked are reincarnated in a distant, hellish land where they suffer punishment for their sins. This land, the mythical continent of Scandinavia, was reputed to lie across the ocean, on the other side of the world. It was said to be a place of scorching deserts, steaming jungles, and deadly volcanoes, ruled over by the immortal king Ragnar Lodbok, Lord of the Underworld. Needless to say, most people dismissed Scandinavia as a legend. If only they had been right.

The myth of Scandinavia was proven true in 1475 BC when a small boat full of starving, filthy warriors was spotted off the coast of Babylon. At first, their clam to be escapees from Scandinavia was dismissed out of hand, until the simultaneous appearance of another Scandinavian boat in the Netherlands soon afterwards. The crews of these two boats rowed their way around the known world, trading, telling stories of the horrors of their homeland, and enjoying life in the civilized world.

For over a thousand years, contact with Scandinavia was minimal. The few Scandinavians who made it back to the world of the living had no wish to return and generally acted as merchants, specializing in carrying wealth and knowledge between the various civilizations of the known world. However, behind this seemingly innocent activity lurked the sinister intent of King Ragnar, who longed to escape his prison and return to the world from which the Gods had banished him.

Then, around 300 BC, another boat arrived from Scandinavia, this one from the east near China, thereby proving that the earth was round. This boat was not a small, makeshift raft like the earlier escapees, but rather a mighty warship equalling anything fielded by any of the civilized navies. Instead of a small band of desparate escapees, the ship disembarked a large number of desparate brigands, who proceed to sack the Chinese town of Shanghai. After a remarkable chase through the jungles, in which the Viking raiders threatened Beijing itself, China finally took the extreme step of paying them tribute in order to call off the attacks. Satisfied, they returned to the coast, where they were joined daily by more shiploads of Scandinavian refugees pouring over from their distant homeland…


Start – I was originally hoping to pull off some early wars in the ancient age, then use the Berserks to get domination during the MA. Oh how naive I was…

The Island – I quickly realize I’m on an island. With desert, jungles, volcanoes, and no iron. I start spamming curraghs from all my cities until I can find more land and neighbors to trade with. There are ~3-4 good small city spaces around the grasslands, with lots of jungle hacking required to get more good land, so I settle those spots and then put most of my effort into workers and boats. I have to get off here one way or another.

The search for neighbors – I had bad luck with those suicide boats. First I hope that there’s land one turn away, but that turns out to be a disappointment. Then I keep losing them again and again before finally getting two curraghs over to the other continent in 1475 and 1425 BC. Spending so many shields on boats definitely hurt my early expansion and research, and I still didn’t get contacts until late. By the time I made contact I was about to give up and just go the isolationist builder route (as the Vikings!). If those last two boats hadn’t made it I probably would have lost the game.

Trading – When I made contact, I had exactly 3 techs – Alphabet, WC, and pottery. The AI civs all had an 8 tech lead on me (Masonry, wheel, HBR, BW, writing, CB, Mysticism, and IW, I believe). I was only a couple turns away from self-researching writing, so I didn’t bother to buy it. I had stockpiled hundreds of gold, but decided to wait to buy tech, because there were no brokering opportunities and I didn’t really need more tech at this time as I was still settling the home island. Finally, in 1050 BC (Monarch!) the Hittites researched MM, which I immediately bought for 210 gold and passed around to everyone else, picking up all the other techs in the process. By the end of my turn, I had gone from a backward 4-tech civ to a tie for first place. I continued to buy and broker throughout the ancient age.

Phony wars – I didn’t do too well in this department. My tech trading was so vital I was scared to cut off contact with anyone. I did manage to stir up trouble among the southern civs. The Zulus, Babylonians, and Hittites all got demoted to “lesser power” status and the Netherlands came out with a lot more cities. The Celts, on the other hand, stayed at peace and kept expanding.

Preparations for the future – The Vikings are an ancient/middle age warmonger civilization, and I had already wasted the ancient age sitting on my island and sinking Curraghs. After such a slow start I’m not going to succeed as a builder in this game. To conquer the mainland I will have to face three obstacles:

1 – Tech backwardness – I already fixed this problem by brokering. Simply getting all the contacts guarantees I’ll always have somebody to buy from.

2 – The Ocean – If I can’t get to them, I can’t conquer them. I realize that I need to set up a ship chain, which surprisingly is allowed by the COTM rules. Actually not so surprisingly, given that this game pretty much demands it. To this end, I build the Great Lighthouse In Trondheim, finishing it in 490 BC

3 – Lack of iron – This is a killer. Yes, I could always use archers, but an archer “rush” isn’t much of a rush if you have to ship-chain the archers to their target. Fortunately, we’ve been given ivory for exactly this purpose. After building the lighthouse I start on the statue of Zeus to make up for my lack of swords.

First war - In 310 BC, I attack the undefended Chinese town of Shanghai with a couple archers I ship-chained over. China was chosen because they are sitting on pretty good land but have not settled it fully and are still quite waek. I raze the town but can't stand up to the Chinese swordsmen, so I run from them until the Chinese are willing to make peace (to end WW) for a few gold. To really make headway, I'll need to wait for some ancient cavalry.

Middle ages – I finally buy currency in 30 BC, entering the middle ages on the same turn that I finish the SoZ. This is a truly pathetic date, though I take some consolation in the fact that the AI is as backwards as I am. This will not be a high-scoring game.

 

[voe]

COTM 09, predator

My first XOTM, since reinstalling Civ and discovering this great forum;-) Will be a challenge at least for a casual player that sometimes used to reload. Must say that giving up reloading and instead planning and thinking about my turns instead of watching them unfold has given me so much fun.
Anyway, decided that I would go for a spaceship as not many people were considering that and I thought it would give me the challenge of playing all the way till the end of the techtree instead of some early conquest. Decided therefore on peacefull development, R&D and strong diplomacy. Development was our first aim however. From the pre-game discussion I must admit I gambled on being alone on an Island. I would build only 1 warrior to confirm that and than first get my own island in order before setting sail to meet others. A condensed QSC log is below

Started 100% pottery, warrior than granary for Trondheim, granary completed in 3050

Towns
4000 Trondheim
2630 Bergen on hill NE of T
2270 Copenhagen on coast W of T
1725 Reykjavik on NE shore of lake
1675 Oslo N of Bergen
1525 Stockholm
1250 Birka

Research
I went for Pottery, Writing en rpu slingshot, which I pulled off in 1200 BC . i researched at max most of the times, though sometime I could afford or was forced to lower the science slider slightly

Units
During the QSC period i build a total of 3 warriors and 3 archers, which was overkill for the barbs I encountered. I dispersed only 2 camps. Almost all were disbanded after reaching republic.
I built two Curraghs, one was sunk on the trun that it spotted a border, the second one went E and met others in 1375.

Diplomacy:
I met the Babylonians in 1375, Dutch in 1325, hittites one or two turns later. Chinese 1125, Celts in 1000, USA 950, Zulu 875, they were backwards. Decided to wait for tech trading untill my slingshot in 1200. the AI’s didn’t have all contacts and I could set up a nice tech-brokerage event;-) Compared to other games I think I was lucky that the AI’s didn’t get all contacts, i would have been farther behind by then. In 470 BC the Hittites declared war (I didn’t give in to bribery, which turned out very fortunate, as it was a phoney was that I plan to keep going very long as it makes my people at home so happy to have an enemy;-)
I built embassies with most nations as well and did a lot of techtrading.

I entered MA in 430 B.C.

Wonders:
None in AA, but the pyramids will be done in 350 BC (surprised I got them, normally do not go for them, but given the low food land decided it might be worthwhile. Also, Bergen is building the Lighthouse and Copenhagen the SoZ, the two combined will trigger my GA somewhere soon;-)


In retrospect
- I think I should have build curraghs earlier, one or two towns could have grown bigger (now I build a lot of workers) and I would have had contact earlier.
- Have a good reputation with everyone except the Hittites, but that’s Ok as they are the equivalent of one or more Luxuries
- Traded tech with everyone and will continue to do so untill Modern Age, thereby funding my own research and hurrying lots of improvements.
- Given the fact that i went all-out for building settlers & towns, I am slightly disappointed with the 7 I had in 1000, might replay some day to check whether that could have been improved.
- Had lots of fun

 

[Jove]

The problem is variance between expections of someone who plays these games very intermittently and others who may play the game regularly.
PF

Arrrr, not that there is anything wrong with intermittent players, but it should be pointed out that this is, after all, the civ FANATICS center. Read enough of these posts, sooner or later you'll realize that they're seriously not kidding. Maybe you're 'just' a civ enthusiast, going though a little culture shock.


I decided first thing to go for a space victory, beards in space and all that...

My science progress:
Pottery- 3450
Writing- 1990
Code of Laws- 1375
Bronze Working, Ceremonial Burial- 1325, from Americans.
Masonry, Iron Working, Mysticism- 1300, from ?? trades.
Philosophy, Republic- 1175
The Wheel- 1150, from Hittites
Map Making, Polytheism, Horseback Riding- 1075, from various nations
Literature- 975
Math- 825, from Celts
Construction- 430BC, enter the MA

I met Babylon in 1425. By 1050 I'd met everyone but the Chinese, finally meeting them in 710 BC.

QSC Stats: 7 cities, 14 citizens, 7 workers, 1 warrior, 4 archers, 2 curraghs, 2 granaries, 1 harbor. Settler in 1, Lit in 3.

The interesting part of my game really takes place after 430BC, so I'll just wait for that thread.

 

[eldar]

Much like LK, my Ancient Ages was dominated not so much by strategy and planning (it kind of went... "Oh, we're stuck on an island? A remote island? Better settle everywhere, and build the Lighthouse then. Oh and some Archers for upgrade later."), as by pure dumb luck.

I built the Lighthouse in 470BC, by which time about half a dozen curraghs had sunk (one survived several turns in the ocean... going in completely the wrong direction!!)

My research went Pottery, Writing, CoL, Philo, (Republic - free), MM, Lit, by which point I'd run out of higher-level techs to research, so I went back and got BW, IW, Masonry, Maths, and CB on my own. The rest I finally managed to trade for, using Republic as the lever.

I delayed revolting until after I'd completed the Lighthouse; I don't know why, I guess I was worried that my cities weren't big enough to support a Republic at the time. When I did revolt, I drew 7 turns of anarchy

By the time I entered the MA in 10BC, I'd met only the Hittites, who were more advanced than me (my Galley sunk before it could reach safety, but I was able to make contact on the next turn).

It wasn't until a few turns into the MA that two more Galleys made safe water, and I got contacts with everyone else.

Neil.

 

[Denniz]

OPEN

I researched both pottery and writing on max. I went for MM before CoL and thereby missed the slingshot. I was thinking I wanted to get the capability to settle all the nearby islands quickly.

Stats:
8 Cities
14 pop
5 workers
2 warriors
2 archers
2 curraghs
2 Grainary
1 Temple
5 contacts (1 embassy)
1 tier techs plus IW, HBR, MM, and writing (traded for everything except Pottery and writing)

I build 10 curraghs, losing 8 at sea before finding another civ in 1400BC. Barbs were a medium problem since I build almost no units and lost 2 warriors before 1000BC.

I was late getting to the MA, 10BC, mostly because I had to self research Republic. I did get only a 3-turn anarchy, though, which ended in 210BC.

I went for literature after republic as researching the MA techs would be necessary. I pretty much trade for everything AA except currency after that.

I end the AA with 10 Cities (one on the island), 40 pop, 2 settlers, 10 workers, 1 warrior, 2 archers, all contacts (6 of 7 with embassies), and the Great Lighthouse. FP is 7 turns from completion.

I am currently at war with 2 civs and allied all the rest against one or the other. They were nice enough to declare after I refused demands from one of them in 610BC. So I was able to use my tech lead to keep the pot stirred. Another advantage of the combination of the distance and almost no military.

@Renata: Your evil volcano plot came up short in my case. All 3 have erupted at least once to date (870AD) , but have effected nothing beyond their own squares with the exception of a gem road once. I had a spare by then. Of course, it is probably unwise of me to taunt the volcano gods before I have completed the game.