COTM 09 First Spoiler: Ancient Age

[AlanH]

Why AlanH never designed a map?

I don't think you'll see a map from me any time soon. I wouldn't know where to start. I actually haven't played this game a lot, I have a rather one dimensional style and, just between you and me, I'm really not very good at it. Since I would have to be able to play it to test it, you'd probably get something that you'd find very easy and very boring.

Also, I don't have a PC that will run Civ3 in any flavour, and don't intend to. BillyGates and his friends don't need or deserve my money, so they aren't getting any of it. The only editor available for the Mac is, in my opinion, clunky and buggy, and it's not even compatible with the version 1.29 of Civ3 that we use for Mac GOTM.

I have no idea what the Windows game editor looks like, but if it's similar to the Mac one I take my hat off to everyone who succeeds in using it. So even if I thought I could create a game I'd first of all have to write a half-decent Mac editor Civ3, and then someone else would have to play test it in PtW or C3C, which kind of defeats the object of sharing out the work and play.

 

[Armageddon]

FWIW, I thought this map was fantastic. Very interesting, forced me to change my style, and resulted in a very enjoyable game @ monarch. Thank you.

 

[solenoozerec]

The plan was a Palace jump and then teleport as many Horsemen as I could build in the meantime over by gifting a city to one of the AI.

Just to make sure that I understood you correctly:
If I gift a city to AI and there are units in this city, they will go to my capital.
Correct?
I thought they get destroyed. I am wondering who was the first who gift a city to AI while there were units in it .

 

[dmanakho]

Just to make sure that I understood you correctly:
If I gift a city to AI and there are units in this city, they will go to my capital.
Correct?
I thought they get destroyed. I am wondering who was the first who gift a city to AI while there were units in it .

You understood it right... If you gift AI a city with units in it all these units will be teleported to your capital...
Sometimes you can use it as an exploit to instantly move unlimited number of troops across continents.

 

[Drazek]

Back home my cities all were producing Horsemen. The plan was a Palace jump and then teleport as many Horsemen as I could build in the meantime over by gifting a city to one of the AI.

This is probably the fastest way to achieve domination/conquest on these kinds of maps.

My AA was uneventful, I just built few towns and the capital focused on wonders. I'm probably going for the 100k, unless looks like it'll take too much (real) time.

 

[Offa]

Predator, Barb Fix

A quick disclaimer... I just played this game mainly for educational purposes (my own and the rest of the staff) dealing with exploits that are not yet against the rules...

The plan was a Palace jump and then teleport as many Horsemen as I could build in the meantime over by gifting a city to one of the AI.

Very impressive to get a town in a peace deal when you presumably hadn't done any fighting..

I presume this palace jump trick is one of the exploits that will be banned in the future. It is a clever idea, but it seems very overpowered on a map like this.

 

[Wanderer]

Just a quick comment - to those who commented that this was an atypical Ainwood map .. that might be because it is RENATA that designed it?

Hmm - on a side note, by the time I reached end of AA, no volcanic activity on my island.

CiaO

 

[Dynamic]

PREDATOR

At start my worker moves NW on the BG tile and reveals coast or lake tile on the west. But I didn’t see any additional food and settled on the place. My first build was Warrior who went W and after confirming of coast N. After that I changed my production to pre-building granary because still my warrior turns around my lands I started to fill myself like Robinson Kruse and I can see how a little food there is on my island. 3 volcanoes flow the lava on my head and there are nobody else.

I started discovering Pottery at max in the beginning because I suspected of the real Vikings must live in the rough environment. In this game I prefer the science speed up and discovered Pottery in 11 turns using delay of city growth once (set one citizen on coast tile) and roading before mining. After the Pottery I went to Republic slingshot and discovered Writing in 2150BC was balancing on the 0-cash. Further I reached Code of Low in 1525BC and Philosophy in 1325BC with free Republic. I didn’t use the fast revolt from the inter-turn in this game because want to complete some buildings. But when I revolted in the main turn I saw only 3 turns of Anarchy and my Republic was formed in 1250BC.

I haven’t any problem with barbs: I never see barb’s galley near my island and barb camps was cleared very easy (noaipatrol=0).

I mainly concentrated on the city building. Granary was built in 3000BC (size 2) then settler. Bergen was founded in 2630BC on NE, Copenhagen in 2350BC on W, Reykjavik in 1950BC on N and so on. I also produced some workers and warriors but most part of warriors was disbanded in the beginning of Republic. Second granary was built in Bergen.

My first Curragh was built only in 1830BC and began turn around my island in hope to see some bridge. But no luck and in 1350BC I sent him to suicide mission but he sunk at the first turn.

I think it was my big mistake not sending the many early Curraghs for searching contacts. I decided it is impossible but it was the wrong decision. But without early Currahgs I can developed slightly faster and in 1100BC I already had 9 cities and discovered Map Making.

At this point the big problem of contacts wakes up for me. I didn’t want to discover all the AA tech myself and I started preparing to suicide run. I stopped my science and rush 4 galleys. I sent them in 3 directions and 2 galleys survives and started meeting other civs in 875BC. I successfully traded many techs and even not sold Republic. AI didn’t discover Currency and Construction at that moment and I researched Currency and Literature myself. After that I stopped my science again and wait for Construction. My money I mainly spent for harbors rushing. AI got Construction in 450BC and after trading I entered in MA.

Trondheim built The Great Lighthouse in 490BC. FP is expected in 290BC in Reykjavik.

I not sell Republic in this game and want to be ahead in tech. I try for Conquest/Domination now.

In 1000BC I had:
10 cities,
23 pop,
4 galleys
7 workers,
3 warriors (remain),
2 granaries,

Alphabet, Pottery, Warrior Code, Writing, Code of Low, Philosophy, Republic, Map Making.
I have no contacts.

P.S. Great idea, Aeson! IIRC such method bradleyfeanor used in GOTM36. I think you can win near BC in this case.

My world in 1000BC:

 

[Darkness]

I got the slingshot, but the key part of my strategy was refusing to trade anything until I had it.

I did the same. I started with pottery, followed by writing and code of laws, but I was able to keep the AI from getting writing (no trades, no AI civs starting with alpabet) until I had code of laws. After that it was an easy run for philosophy and republic as my free tech in 1250BC, because I was first in GNP by a 40-50% margin...

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

no AI civs starting with alpabet

Dutch and Hittites do.
And, with Huts and 3 EXP Civs, everything is possible. The AI could obviously get Philo around 1300BC, or still lack it at 900BC. So, a successful slingshot required at foremost luck. Unless you were stupid enough to give away Writing early, in which case it would have been your fault to miss it.

 

[Drugged_Unholy]

Hmm, I'm not doing very well. This is my first attempt at a GOTM and my first attempt at this difficulty level. My strategy has been to settle the island and then build lots of units and galleys in an attempt to get a base abroad. I managed to do that, but was then swiftly kicked off the lands I had settled 3 cities in before I could bring a decent military to defend it. I'm now in the MA and have changed strategy to do a spot of building before launching another attempt at settling new lands.

 

[MiniMe]

I start out with pottery at max and discover that in 3400BC. Granary is ready in 3000BC. The first settler leaves Trondheim in 2710BC. I discover writing in 2070BC. Code of laws discovered in 1475BC and philosophy (and free republic) in 1225BC. I actually delayed philosophy 3 turns because I wanted to finish producing the ongoing settlers and workers. Pull 3 turns anarchy.

I sent out an expedition of 4 curraghs in 1325BC after some local travelling that revealed nothing of interest apart from a small island that will be inhabited once we get mapmaking.

QSC stats:
7 small villages
12 population
1 settlers
12 workers
2 warriors
1 archer
1 curragh
3 granaries

Missing most techs, only have 2 contacts, but will get rest of contacts soon.

After that we meet the other civs and are able to trade for most techs. We self research currency and construction and enter the MA in 550BC. Plan is to go for navigation and then for invention and military tradition. Also planning to build two wonders to trigger GA as soon as possible.

Its a different map for sure. Not made for quick domination. Key to the game is of course research and a real challenge it is to maintain speed. I traded and gave away techs as fast as I could, except republic as I normally try to keep a monopoly on until there are some free techs to bargain from. The goal was not to have to self research everything.

 

[Arphahat]

I have a question regarding the Republic Slingshot, specifically, the researching of Writing. I have read people discussing whether to use max research or min research, but when I was researching Writing, it was going to take the same amount of turns regardless of where the slider was, so I kept it at min. Is there some advantage to keeping it at max even if the number of turns doesn't change?

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

On Monarch, with a SEA Civ, you will be able to get Writing considerably faster than 50 turns. But, if you start researching it, you cannot produce enough beakers to get it in less than 50 turns; but still, you are making more than one beaker/turn, so when growing, the research time will go down with the help of those 6 or so beakers/turn you made at size 1.

 

[Arphahat]

So, if I have research at max, even though it still says 50 turns, the idea is that when I grow, the extra that didn't make a difference at the time will show itself?

 

[Renata]

More or less.

Each tech has a specific cost associated with it that's related to map size and difficulty level. That cost can also be reduced if you know other civs who already have the tech.

Minimum research in the early game usually entails about 1gp per turn going to research. That level might increase to 2gp towards the end of a 50-turn run if the territory is good enough, but it won't go higher than that. That means that after 50 turns of minimum research, you'll have at most about 60 beakers accumulated. That wouldn't be enough to research *anything* on a standard Monarch map if not for the max-turns rule.

If you research at the maximum possible rate at all times, however, you might be able to accumulate a few hundred beakers in the same period of time. Let's say a particular tech has a cost of 200 beakers. Initially, you're making only (for example) three beakers per turn at maximum research. 3x50 is only 150 beakers, not enough to pay the full price, so the turns-to-go will read '50' no matter where the slider is.

After 20 turns or so, though, you'll be making more than 3 beakers per turn. Let's say you're making 7, and that your total accumulated at that point is 80 beakers. 200-80 is 120 beakers to go; at a rate of 7 per turn that would take 18 turns. So you'll show 18 turns to go at that point, rather than the 30 it would have been if you'd stayed at minimum research. On the other hand, if the cost of the tech had been 500 beakers instead of 200, your turns-to-go would still be 30, and all the max-research in the world wouldn't get it to go any lower.

The determining factors in the cost/benefit analysis are the cost of the tech and the speed at which you can accumulate beakers. In this case, the price of writing was not so high that a seafaring civ with a coastal capital and 2fpt population growth couldn't cut off a few turns from the minimum rate.

Renata

 

[Dynamic]

So, if I have research at max, even though it still says 50 turns, the idea is that when I grow, the extra that didn't make a difference at the time will show itself?

On Monarch level Writing costs 200+ beakers, I don't remember exactly, for example 225. When you found the first city it produce 4 beakers per turn. It's true if the city placed on the coast, science sets at 100% and citizen works on the tile without commerce. At this moment you can see 50 turn prediction (225/4 = 56,25 turns but max allowed value is 50). If you build road on the tile when citizen works your city begins earn 5 beakers per turn. When your city grow to size 2 the second citizen can get other beaker if works on the tile with road. It gives us 6 bpt. For example: if your worker built road first (after one movement from city), then moves on other tile and built road again, you got 4 bpt for first 3 turns, 5 bpt for next 6 and on 10-th you got 6 bpt (city grow to size 2). So you earn 48 beakers for first 10 turns and have a science rate 6 bpt on turn 10. At this moment you can see under the slider not 40 turns (10 already past) but: (225 - 48) / 6 ~ 30 turns. So even you will not do other commerce improvements and your city will not grow you will discover Writing for 40 turns instead 50.

The real game is played slightly other way. You need mine your tiles and if you produce settler early your city will reduce to size 1 again and so on. If you set your citizen on the coast tile or on the tile with commerce resource you can earn more beakers but your city growth will be slower, all buildings will complete later and new citizens who can earn additional beakers will be born later. It's deadlock. So you must make balance between different goals in the game: fast growth, fast science and fast production.

EDIT: Renata beat me on this explanation.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

It should also be mentioned that early Scientist, even for a few turns, have a huge impact on research times. One Scientist=3bpt, and outside the capital a citizen needs to work an hefty commerce bonus like gold to produce such bpt.
Unfortunately, this also allows for an exploit/cheat saving a few crucial turns on the early AA techs...

 

[ainwood]

Well, anyone using an exploit like that will be first pilloried, then hung, drawn and quartered.

Seriously Doc - I think you were very unlucky if you missed the republic - it is certainly possible on this map. My research was always at max rates, starting with pottery, then writing, CoL, and Philosophy - following that, a few of the AIs had writing, but I don't think any had CoL. Even well into the middle ages, there were civs that simply didn't have contact with each other, so AI trade was quite slow. I did try to speed research by settling the first few cities coastally, and a bit of MM to maximise commerce (when shields were going to over-run for example). Might have helped a bit, but in the end it was reasonably comfortable.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Well, anyone using an exploit like that will be first pilloried, then hung, drawn and quartered.

Yeah, maybe I'm paranoid.
And of course in this game pulling it around 1300BC is certainly doable. As well as still being first in 900BC .