COTM 19 - Pre-game discussion

[juballs2001]

If this game has no AI with alphabet to start, we are alone on an island and the AI's are not clustered in bigger (>2) groups, it is made way too easy imo.
So while i fear this is the case, i hope it is not.

it is made easy so it will be competitive. u dont want to lay a sid game out there and expect people to win at it.

any random sid game and you would only get experienced people returning with wins.

this way it is competitive and gives most of us a chance!

 

[Obormot]

I agree with Wacken, i think it would be fair to have one game in which even the best players here would struggle to survive. I know that many people wouldn't like it, but you cannot make a game that would be good for everyone. Some people cannot win on deity and some find emperor boring. I know a few people who don't play gotm just because they find the maps and the settings too easy.

 

[Nata]

You mean the safe version of the slingshot when you take CoL for free or the risky one when you take Republic for free?

The risky one. But I had a random map where AIs were 1-2 on small islands, and I edited my island neighbour out. And somehow they fell behind, especially isolated ones. So I got Rep. slingshot in 1100BC in one try and in 1450BC in another try, but that one was pure luck. I was aiming for Literature slingshot but someone researched CoL and traded it to me for Philosophy!

 

[Obormot]

Very interesting... Never thought that it is possible on sid, but since it is possible and i am almost sure that the map is as easy as it can be, i am going to try it in my game. Thanks for the info

 

[Karasu]

Updated the first post with the bonuses etc.

Conquest Class Bonuses
- Gold: start the game with 150 gp
- Units: start the game with 3 curraghs and 1 extra settler
Note: the curraghs are place on either side of the starting position, 2 on the eastern tile and 1 on the western one

Predator Class Equalisers
- You thought you knew all secrets of Agriculture... but you can only grow tulip bulbs!
The Agricultural trait has been removed, but you still start with Pottery and Alphabet


Now this is interesting -folks complaining that the Sid game is "too easy" (well, one can always go predator...).
But as you say, it's impossible to make everyone happy. I tried to balance things somewhat, but this game will probably look too 'easy' to some and too hard to others -as always happens.
Just let me know after playing it: it is certainly feasible to put together an evil Sid Pangaea in the near future -after a break at a lower level, of course...

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Tulip bulbs are from past centuries.
It is weed we grow and export now in holland.

 

[Karasu]

You're right, Wacken...
That actually did cross my mind, but I thought I'd go for a more harmless version

 

[Twonky]

I made myself a starting template (for open class, that is). Focusing strongely on Growth, it is aimed to set up the settler factory asap, but also provides 2 early Curraghs. Those I will use to explore our own island (I really hope it´s ours alone!), with one going around the northern part, the other around the south before both seek for contacts.



Drawbacks are the lack of commerce (the worker is to lay out more roads) as well as the lack of MP.

 

[Paul#42]

(I really hope it´s ours alone)

You can almost bet on that, otherwise the conquest's bonus would have been some land units at the start.

 

[King Of America]

Twonky--check your food numbers -- center should be 3 (for non-Preditors) and I think dry cow is 3

Edit--Looks like your "fpt" is the bonus food, not the total food--in that case, your numbers are fine. Sorry.

 

[King Of America]

Thinking out load about working the furs...

If we performed the heretical action of roading, not chopping, the fur forest -- it's producing 2 food and 2 shield as is; if you chop, you'll have to mine it to get it back to 2 shields.

I think roading a forest is 6 turns, whereas chop/road/mine is (4+3+4) 11 turns -- in terms of shields, in 11 turns of roading and moving on you have 22 shields; with chop/road/mine you have (4X2) + 10 + 6 (6x1) +2 (I'm counting the 2nd shield at turn 11) = 26. For 4 shields, I think I would rather have the worker free.

For chop/mine/road, you'd have 8 (chopping)+10 (clearing bonus)+3 (first 3 mine)+4 (last mine) +6 (3x2 while roading) = 31, which might be worth it, although you'd delay linking the furs

In case mining is 6 (I can't remember and I'm at work), the numbers would be

26 shields for roading
28 shields for chop/road/mine
35 shields for chop/mine/road ... more shields but loss of 7 worker turns

Thoughts/math corrections anyone?

 

[klarius]

Furs forest does only produce 1 food.
Secondly you don't need to mine anything short term.
Due to the BG cow, you can operate a settler factory w/o a single BG or fur mined.

BTW, I intend to build two curraghs first, then granary (with chop).
Worker will irrigate and road cow, then chop furs, then build only roads for some time.

 

[King Of America]

@klarius--you're right about fur forest being 1 food. So much for being a heretic

Would you mine the cow--I was thinking of irrigating it so that my center + it would give me +5 food. Is there another way to get to +5?

 

[denyd]

Ok, so let's hope we're all alone on a nice island and can get 12-15 cities set up during the AA under a farmers gambit. We'll probably be able to stay even with the AI on tech with some astute trading and we might even be able to secure iron, horses and a couple of luxuries for trading. With the discovery of Feudalism we'll be able to get Swiss Mercs on the board to defend our holdings for awhile.

Now what

About this time the AI starts meeting each other and with the trade discounts they offer each other, pretty soon we're researching Invention, while they're building Newton's. Even if we happen to get lucky and build the GLib, all we've done is delay getting tech swamped until the late MA. Since we've been emphasizing growth and not infrastructure or military, our culture is low (no 20K and definatly no 100K),and we have nothing to think about attacking with (no Domination or Conquest). Trailing the field in tech makes Spaceship or Diplomatic near impossible.

So how do we go about winning one of these?

 

[Smirk]

...i think it would be fair to have one game in which even the best players here would struggle to survive.

In Civ3? I don't see how thats possible unless these players really like a disadvantage, playing a bad map and a high difficulty.

If you look at the games historically you'll see hard games just mean less submissions. I play gotm to compete with other *humans* playing the same map, I can't do that if the difficulty or poor map means fewer submit.

I'm a bit surprised to see a Sid game and I hope that this doesn't deter some players. Despite the lame names the conquest/predator idea was designed to deal with this very issue, you want a challenge: Play predator. That's what it was made for, this way submission numbers don't drop dramatically and you still get your challenge.

 

[Own]

I'll definately be trying this . I don't know if I'll go for the slingshot though...

Opening moves are obvious.


Advice I've recieved from DocT is go for the good city loc's ASAP, the AI's will send settlers on galleys over a lot sooner than expected. Also due to the low OCN I'll place my cities in CXXXXC with occassional CXXXC (with no wasted land tiles of course).

I don't know about predator, it depends on the map. Everyone may be underestimating the difficulty on this game. If the map is like what Obormot described, the difficulty would be more like emperor or demigod, I highly doubt that. I do think we're alone, just I don't think we have the biggest island.

 

[Nata]

Trailing the field in tech makes Spaceship or Diplomatic near impossible.
So how do we go about winning one of these?

I think Ais being on small island might limit their expansion, and if we are quick enough we can outexpand them, say, 2 to 1 and thus have more commerce in the end.
They get production and trading bonus, but not commerce bonus, so we can rake in more gold than them and still beat them in tech race.
So our hope is that AI Civs stay small, with few cities each, and there would be no super AIs. Islands should help - I see a hope for record-breaking Diplo victory here.

 

[Own]

Maybe I'm crazy but I think I'm going for histographic victory (milked game). I don't know why.

 

[ignas]

Ok, so let's hope we're all alone on a nice island and can get 12-15 cities set up during the AA under a farmers gambit. We'll probably be able to stay even with the AI on tech with some astute trading and we might even be able to secure iron, horses and a couple of luxuries for trading. With the discovery of Feudalism we'll be able to get Swiss Mercs on the board to defend our holdings for awhile.

Now what

About this time the AI starts meeting each other and with the trade discounts they offer each other, pretty soon we're researching Invention, while they're building Newton's. Even if we happen to get lucky and build the GLib, all we've done is delay getting tech swamped until the late MA. Since we've been emphasizing growth and not infrastructure or military, our culture is low (no 20K and definatly no 100K),and we have nothing to think about attacking with (no Domination or Conquest). Trailing the field in tech makes Spaceship or Diplomatic near impossible.

So how do we go about winning one of these?

with military alliances if AI's are sharing landmasses and with huge numbers of swiss mercenaries and catapults landing on a hill or mountain in AI's territory.early leader would be very beneficial.dipomatic victory is definetely the easiest condition to win

 

[The-Hawk]

Well... I sure hope we are alone on our island. I'd never played Dutch before, nor Archipelago, so I decided to try a random map to get a feel for both. My start position wasn't as good as the one we will be getting, and it turns out the Persians were sharing my little piece of paradise with me. I tried being real friendly with them (RoP and a GPT deal). I thought I was doing pretty well... was keeping up because I had just gotten GLib. Suddenly, the Persians decided they liked my side of the island and absolutely blew me away. My main learning from the exercise... sharing a small island with an aggressive Sid Civ is no fun!

Anyhow, I'm looking forward to my second try at COTM... and I think my go-in strategy will be similar to my first (COTM-18). Survive and take what it gives me. Most likely will look for a diplo win, but who knows . Open class is definitely enough challenge for me.

@Twonky: A question on your spreadsheet. Why are some of the SPT cells "+2"? Do you get the shield production from a new civilian the turn she/he is created? So, in this example, are you assuming the new civilian will go to a forest tile? Or, is something else going on here?

Thanks...