Could the US capture Europe?

[Truronian]

Ok, I've done some number crunching and come to the conclusion that the EU would win:

From here
US troops + reserves: 2280994
European troops + reserves: 5068910

From here
Eu population: 461,500,000
US population: 299,948,376

from here
GDPs about the same

Couldn't be bothered to assess comparative arms strength (planes tanks etc).

 

[MobBoss]

Gah...I had a massive post and lost it. Dang internet. Couple of things:

@thor: You are incorrect about the boneyard. Here is the link: http://www.dm.af.mil/library/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=4383 Also, fyi, you can protect an airframe in that climate for years if you shrinkwrap it..which is precisely why that location was chosen for this storage of aircraft.
If needed to, it would be much easier to make these aircraft operational again, as opposed to manufacturing an entirely new plane.

This whole thing is ridiculous. I still maintain that the USA could do it and has the advantage is many areas:

1. Static defense is a tactical disadvantage - you cant guard everywhere at once.
2. American forces are battle tested and of verteran status. The EU are not.
3. American forces retain their technology superiority, albeit not as great.
4. In a war of attrition, american forces can replenish and remanufacture combat losses at a higher rate than the EU can.

I think it would play out like this. The USA would attempt to gain local area air superiority using larger localized concentrations of fighter aircraft in order to inflict maximum airframe/pilot casualities, while also inflicting damage to static airbases from a distance using cruise missiles. Air defense batteries are destroyed/suppressed by using harm missile technology. Over time, this would result in USA air superiority. Once we control the skies over Europe, its over.

 

[willemvanoranje]

You're forgetting public opinion my friend. The current government at least would never be able to pull it of.

Besides, Europe would drag down America with it. America is already living on an economic bubble greater than ever, just imagine what will happen if they lose a huge market like Europe.

The scenario you described above is a possible one, but where would you exactly be getting those fighters from? As soon as a war started, American bases in Europe would immediatly be attacked. And don't think Europeans still fight with slings and arrows; especially on land warfare there is some pretty damn good equipment around here, especially Germany.

And just control of the sky isn't going to get you anywhere. It isn't getting the US anywhere in Iraq now, is it? Don't get me wrong, air superiority is very important, but landing troops will not get an easy ride. Even after taking all major cities, you can count on it that the fight will not be over. I at least would love to personally kick out any invader.

 

[Hotpoint]

This whole thing is ridiculous. I still maintain that the USA could do it and has the advantage is many areas:

1. Static defense is a tactical disadvantage - you cant guard everywhere at once.

The EU always knows the location of every USN Carrier Group (for a start those high-powered radars on the Aegis Cruisers scream "I'm here" in every direction) and can redeploy forces faster than the USN can sail its carriers to another location. The EU is full of runways that can be used by military jets if required. If I was running the show I'd be using motorways as landing strips too.

2. American forces are battle tested and of verteran status. The EU are not.

The USAF/USN pilots are not battle-tested against a decent adversary. Dropping bombs on huts in afganistan is not like trying to fly through a proper integrated Air Defence Network with modern SAM's, Fighters and AWACS.

3. American forces retain their technology superiority, albeit not as great.

Until the F35's come into service (which won't be for a while) the USN would actually find itself facing a technologically superior foe if it attacked Europe. F/A-18's would not perform well against increasing numbers of Typhoons, Rafales and Gripens. In any case the new European Meteor BVRAAM missiles are longer ranged and far more capable than the AIM-120s that the Americans are sticking with.

4. In a war of attrition, american forces can replenish and remanufacture combat losses at a higher rate than the EU can.

Sorry but what makes you think so? The EU actually has the ability to produce warships, AFV's and combat aircraft faster than the US. We've got a lot more production lines set up thanks to assembly plants in several different countries, none of which runs remotely to capacity at present but which could be ramped up quickly if needed. National pride has always stopped centralisation of production which is why the Typhoon could be cheaper than it is (still a lot cheaper than the F-22 though, the USAF is ordering so few of them the unit cost is astronomical).

In the long term Europe also has a lot more industrial depth in terms of manufacturing. It's quicker to retool a factory than build one.

 

[bhsup]

Ok, I've done some number crunching and come to the conclusion that the EU would win:

From here
US troops + reserves: 2280994
European troops + reserves: 5068910

From here
Eu population: 461,500,000
US population: 299,948,376

from here
GDPs about the same

Couldn't be bothered to assess comparative arms strength (planes tanks etc).

You're not taking into account that one of our preparatory moves would be to forcibly annex Canada. Please add another 40 million or so to our population totals. Thank you.

 

[GinandTonic]

You're not taking into account that one of our preparatory moves would be to forcibly annex Canada. Please add another 40 million or so to our population totals. Thank you.

The massive insurgency blowing up your Alaskan pipelines for Queen and Baguette tie-up tens of thousands of your troops. Please adjust your figures

 

[bhsup]

The massive insurgency blowing up your Alaskan pipelines for Queen and Baguette tie-up tens of thousands of your troops. Please adjust your figures

Touche! (No, I won't put that accent character on. I typed that in English.)

 

[scipian]

Depends on the motivation. If America attacked Europe (I'll assume a war against all EU nations at once) as a belligerent, we'd probably not win. We very well may destroy their armies but there's no way we could hold all of Europe. We might not even win the initial combat because we'd have dissention and it'd be hard to garner public support.

If they attacked us (say, they had a dictator take control of the EU), we would probably win. We'd have the public support to do everything neccessary. Be like WWII; rationing, all of the economy going to the war. With that we'd easily win.

BTW-When people say that the US couldn't conquer and hold Europe, we conquered and held Italy, Japan, and part of Germany and they were absolute fanatics. And the Europeans are not very warloving or any of that stuff nowadays.

 

[scipian]

Also, granted that the EU may have more troops. But America has much better forces per person than the Europeans do and we don't have the problem of divided command.

 

[Sidhe]

Depends on the motivation. If America attacked Europe (I'll assume a war against all EU nations at once) as a belligerent, we'd probably not win. We very well may destroy their armies but there's no way we could hold all of Europe. We might not even win the initial combat because we'd have dissention and it'd be hard to garner public support.

If they attacked us (say, they had a dictator take control of the EU), we would probably win. We'd have the public support to do everything neccessary. Be like WWII; rationing, all of the economy going to the war. With that we'd easily win.

BTW-When people say that the US couldn't conquer and hold Europe, we conquered and held Italy, Japan, and part of Germany and they were absolute fanatics. And the Europeans are not very warloving or any of that stuff nowadays.

Precisely but we'd all be overwhelmed by Mob Bosses conviction that he alone could win, at the end of the day you can't win when he has a penis that size

Moderator Action: Warned for flaming. And I'd watch the vulgarity as well. - The Yankee
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

Let's get real no one would win, if Europe attacked the US we'd lose and vise a versa. It's BS to believe otherwise, but it's entertaining BS.

 

[GinandTonic]

BTW-When people say that the US couldn't conquer and hold Europe, we conquered and held Italy, Japan, and part of Germany and they were absolute fanatics.

With the help of the Uk, India, Pakistan, Nepal, Oz, NZ, Canada, SA, most of Africa, the free French, the free Poles etc etc etc

And the Europeans are not very warloving or any of that stuff nowadays.

.
Go to Cardif on a saturday night. Really

 

[CartesianFart]

It's BS to believe otherwise, but it's entertaining BS.

Most of these threads in OT are entertaining BS.

 

[scipian]

Yep, agree with Sidhe. The side defending (being attacked) would win.

 

[scipian]

Granted we did have some help. But pretty much none of them had any large effect on the war other than possibly GB. We still captured most of the land and supplied most of the forces. Of course, you forgot the only one non-US nation that really mattered. RUSSIA. I agree that without them we wouldn't have been able to capture the area. But, IMHO, the US didn''t need the other non-Russian forces to hold our European area.

Cardif? A soccer stadium?

 

[zenspiderz]

Am I the only one to wonder if in fact europe is already under the dominion of US? Oh I know the French act up occasionally but really the whole of the rest of europe from blighty to the deutchland are utterly servile to america. And all those US bases.. don't they already occupy us?...
WW2 basically achieved nothing more than making eastern europe russian vassals and western europe US vassals.... See my earlier post on how US could 'conquor' europe without hardly fighting and you have a description of WW2!!!!!!

 

[scipian]

We do not control the European governments; they can and often oppose us internationally. We do not control their people, their laws, their economies, their armies. Europe is a large trader with the US and we have some leverage with them but of course not on the level of "vassal". Also, it's absurd to call our mutual friendship with Western Europe the same as the unilateral, military control the Soviets had over Eastern Europe.

 

[nc-1701]

Could the United States be able to launch an invasion of Europe (Excluding Russia, Turkey and other nations partly in and outside geographical Europe) and defeat all of the opposing forces and then capture all of Europe? (and hold it down).

This assumes nuclear weapons are out of the equation

No we could beat them into submission with bombs and cruise missiles but an actual invasion would be stupid.

 

[The Tollan]

The U.S. could probably not capture all of Europe although less defended portions might could be occupied for some period of time.

The United States would probably achieve an advantage (though perhaps not supremacy) on/in/above the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans however a land invasion of Europe would be probably be too risky. Such a venture would probably be harder than a land invasion of China even.

Going for occupation of Ireland or possibly the U.K. (though this scenario would make little sense since these areas are usually considered favorable to the U.S. overall) would probably work better than invading the Continent. This depends on what happens in the air/naval aspect of the war. The modern U.S. attacking the modern U.K. or Ireland would be a bit like modern Germany attacking modern Austria (not exactly though).

If Europe had enough time to prepare German, French, and Eastern European forces (with equipment from Germany, France and the U.K.) would be quite substantial. If the U.S. directly invaded Iberia and tried to move through France and Germany it would probably appear to be successful at first however encountered severe difficulties if Western/Central European forces began to fortify the area. The advance would probably be stopped somewhere in France (note this is highly speculative and should not be viewed as authoritative). This also pre-supposes substantial forces could be deployed on the Continent itself.

Russia could supply a lot of military power (though it is far from that of the U.S.) if it were involved. I am considering all European countries except Russia, Turkey and possibly Belarus would fit on the European side.

 

[garric]

Wow.. I guess some people are still, after seven pages, too nationalistic and anti-American to admit the fact that IF we wanted to, we could crush all of the countries in Europe into submission through our superior tactics and equipment. The United States has shown itself, throughout history, that it is capable of defeating any enemy that comes against us. Not to mention the fact that Europe would likely be full of treasonous collaborators and opportunists, the fact that much of Europe's population is neither fit mentally nor physically for military duty (they don't "want" to fight), much of Europe's population is aged (due to white birth rates down), and that it houses an anti-establishment minority of Muslims that though, will unlikely rebel, but will likely sabotage the war effort; and everyone seems to love to ignore the fact that the EU, unlike the United States, is still divided. Every region in the EU speaks their own language for the most part, there are still rivalries, and disorganization, not to mention a stylized beurocratic system. These things may seem small to the untrained mind, however, they account for a lot when the crap hits the fan, so to speak. Also, you speak of it as if United States would be going at it alone, without any allied support (unlikely), and that all of the EU would want to contribute to the war effort (unlikely).

But then again, the United States would never invade Europe.. so yeah?

 

[Urederra]

I learnt my lesson from the american getting captured thread. It is pointless to discuss about such a highly hypothetiical issues. Too many "ifs" make the discussion pointless.