Create a good vanilla line-up for Civilization

[Zaarin]

Much appreciated! *bows*

Three Native American civs, four Asian civs, two-three Middle-eastern civs, three African civs, five European civs, and one US of A. Relatively balanced for vanilla. Cutting Russia out of vanilla works wonders (though it may be fun in a future expansion to cut out Greece instead and add them in a DLC or expansion).

As controversial as it might be, I'd be completely comfortable cutting Greece, letting Rome cover the Hellenistic world until a DLC or expansion.

 

[Vahnstad]

No, they should always be included.

If there should be 5 european civs, let it be: Greece, Rome, Russia, England and France, and exclude Spain, a Viking civ and Germany.

 

[Morningcalm]

Germany has tons of Civ fans, so it's less likely. I agree with Zaarin that cutting Greece may work; fewer fans there.

 

[Vahnstad]

Germany has tons of Civ fans, so it's less likely. I agree with Zaarin that cutting Greece may work; fewer fans there.

And let Canada takes it spot because it has lots of civ fans.

Come on, that's just ridicilous. Greece is just one of the most iconic civs in the world. A game without Greece, is simply not civ-worthy, and I wouldn't buy a civ VII without Greece honestly. Then people can criticize vi for being too eurocentric, you can also just ignore the cradle of civilizations completely for obscure civs in Africa (since the entire world needs to be representented), because the country (of Greece) isn't relevant anymore today.

And leaving Greece out for let's say Mali, Ethiopia or Zimbabwe is marketing-wise just incredibly stupid.

There is nothing wrong with 6 or 7 civs in Europe, why do we actually need 3 native american civs?

EDIT: Thought he meant 3 native american civs from America itself, but apparently he included Mayas and Aztecs.

 

[Vahnstad]

Still, you would have a big gap ("diversity among regions"), if you leave both Scandinavia (the vikings), Eastern Europe, Mongolia AND Russia blank. You have no Russia, you have no horse warmonger civ. The most northern civs would be England, China, Japan, Germany and the USA (excluding Alaska). No Russia and Mongols but both Benin and Ethiopia in the game would be remarkable.

I think both Russia and Greece are incontournable. (but aside of that pretty good civ list). But Iroqious, Indonesia, Benin or Ethiopia would most likely have to go for Greece or Russia.

 

[IgorS]

I must say I do not really understand the hype about Benin.
I'd rather see a civ from Benin itself - Dahomey.

 

[Gabriel Sergio]

Why not? The devs only needs to do their homework, and focus on civs that are actually doable and make sense, and stop giving us stupid civs like the Scythians.

What? I think stupid isn't the right word.

 

[Morningcalm]

And let Canada takes it spot because it has lots of civ fans.

Come on, that's just ridicilous. Greece is just one of the most iconic civs in the world. A game without Greece, is simply not civ-worthy, and I wouldn't buy a civ VII without Greece honestly. Then people can criticize vi for being too eurocentric, you can also just ignore the cradle of civilizations completely for obscure civs in Africa (since the entire world needs to be representented), because the country (of Greece) isn't relevant anymore today.

And leaving Greece out for let's say Mali, Ethiopia or Zimbabwe is marketing-wise just incredibly stupid.

There is nothing wrong with 6 or 7 civs in Europe, why do we actually need 3 native american civs?

EDIT: Thought he meant 3 native american civs from America itself, but apparently he included Mayas and Aztecs.

Canada is not worthy, and some Canadians have expressed the view they would rather not see Civ include Canada. With Brazil in the base game and Australia as DLC we are well weary of colony countries in Civ, thanks. Obviously the number of fans or marketing concerns is not reason alone to include or exclude civs, but if it's between Germany and Greece, I would bet Germany would remain, and Greece added later.

You seem to undervalue African history, and thereby the cradle of mankind's birth. It's fine to have preferences but I do not agree with your insistence on Russia and Greece. This is why my list has more numerically even distribution and more Native American, Asian and African civs.

Having certain European nations in the base game is fine, but it becomes an issue when you see Europe filled in and vast Africa and the Americas merely relegated to two representatives. (And Australia added in instead of more worthy Empires like Mali and Ethiopia.

 

[Vahnstad]

The game isn't designed to be played on an Earth map.

It could have been done better. But 5 European civs is just not enough, and Africa should have two civs, or the Americas should have only the Aztec/Maya's, Inca's and the USA, and i don't think that the inclusion of Benin or Iroquois justifies the abstention of Russia or Greece. They obviously should be included however in a future expansion (but maybe prioritize Mali instead of Benin).

 

[Roman Citizen]

Based game
America (James Madison)
Arabia (Baibars)
Aztecs (Montezuma)
Babylon (Nabonidus)
China (Emperor Yongle)
Egypt (Khufu)
England (Elizabeth I)
France (Louis XIV)
Germany (Otto the great)
Greece (Leonidas I)
Inca (Tupa Inca Yupanqui)
Indonesia (Hayam Wuruk)
India (Gandhi)
Japan (Toyomoto Hideyoshi)
Mali (Mansa Musa)
Ottoman Turks (Mustafa Kemal Ataturk)
Poland (John III Sobieski)
Rome (Marcus Aurelius)
Russia (Catherine the Great)
Zulu (Shaka)
Scenarios
War of 1812
Russian Civil war
Expedition of the treasured fleets of the Ming

DLCs
Maya (Lady Six Sky) Classical Maya Scenario
Carthage (Hannibal) 2nd Punic war scenario
Gran Colombia (Simon Bolivar) and
Argentina (San Martin) Latin america wars for Independence scenario
Vietnam (Trung Sisters)
Burma (Alaungpaya) East Indian Company scenario
Spain (Isabella) Reconquista scenario
Portugal (Manuel I) Age of discovery scenario
Persia (Khosrow I) Persian invasion of Greece scenario
Mongolia (Genghis Khan) Mongolian invasions scenario

Expansion 1
Sweden (Christina)
Italy (Giuseppe Garibaldi)
Iroquois (Joseph Brant)
Sioux (Sitting Bull)
Nigeria (Awolowo)
Ashanti (Yaa Asantewa)
Brazil (Pedro II)
Chile (Domingo Santa Maria)
Korea (Seondeok of Sillia)
Siam (Chulalongkorn)

Scenarios
The great northern war
Italian and German unification
American Revolution

Expansion 2
Ethiopia (Menelik II)
Morrocco (Mohammed ben Abdallah)
Kongo (Diogo I Nkumbi)
Akkadia (Sargon)
Assyria (Ashurbanipal)
Hittites (Puduhepa)
Mexico (Porfiro Diaz)
Tlingit (Sheiyksh I)
Navajo (Narbona)
Byzantine (Zoe Porphyrogentia)
Bulgaria (Samuel)
Leif Erikson (Iceland)

scenarios
Mesopotamia
Industrial revolution of Great Britian
Korean War
21st century

Expansion 3
Netherlands (Wilhelmina)
Macedon (Alexander)
Celts (Vercingetorix)
Canada (Lester B pearson)
Australia (Henry Parkes)
Maori (Te Pauparaha)
Tamar (Georgia)
Tamerlane (Timurids)
Chuckchi (Eyehell)
Songhai (Sonni Ali)
Boar (Paul Kruger)
Swahili (Al Hansan)

Scenarios
Scramble for Africa
Mali and Songhai
Spice trade
Bronze age collapse

 

[Morningcalm]

The game isn't designed to be played on an Earth map.

It could have been done better. But 5 European civs is just not enough, and Africa should have two civs, or the Americas should have only the Aztec/Maya's, Inca's and the USA, and i don't think that the inclusion of Benin or Iroquois justifies the abstention of Russia or Greece. They obviously should be included however in a future expansion (but maybe prioritize Mali instead of Benin).

You're entitled to your opinion. But the Earth map has little to do with it. Having more than 5 European nations in the base game means a third of the civs would come from Europe, despite Europe's relatively small proportion of the world's people and history. That doesn't seem fair, and implies some sort of vaunted imperial privilege and/or fascination with European history at the expense of others. #civsowhite.

The Iroquois were included in the V base game while the Inca were DLC, and there are more Mayan-descended people in Central America than Aztec-descended people. The fascination with Aztecs is understandable but they don't need to be in the base game every single time. I frankly think people would look forward to Aztecs, Vikings etc if they were given a unique twist and some OP traits in DLC.

I wouldn't mind Mali but I included Benin in part to up the female representation and also because I think a DLC of expansion with Mali would get more interest than one with Benin (due to recognition). Every Civ game seems to have a dark horse Civ and for me that's Benin for base game fantasy purposes.

 

[LastSword]

Must have:
1. Egypt
2. Greece
3. Rome
4. China
5. Arabia
6. Mongolia
7. France
8. Spain/Portugal
9. England
Should have:
10. Sumer
11. India: pre-1000AD one, definitely pre-Mughal colonization
12. Japan
13. Persia
14. Russia
Good enough:
15. USA: iirc it was first civ to be announced... One modern civ is absolutely fine though.
16. Austria
17. Mayans
Last pick:
18. Random (Babylon, Carthage, Italy, Congo, Khmer, Aztec, Ottomans)

Though making only 18 civs in 2016 is meh in first place.

 

[Amrunril]

Skipping Greece definitely wouldn't be my choice, but it's no worse than some of the omissions the developers made this time around (Inca, Maya, Mongolia). In Western, Europe, My inclination would actually be to skip France and or Germany rather than Spain, based on Spain's success as a colonial power plus the fact that Spain missed civ V vanilla and, all else being equal, I like to see the civs included and not included change from game to game instead of remaining static.

I'm also happy to drop the US. Not only do I simply care less about modern powers in a civ context, I also think the US could be better represented by expansion mechanics focused on the late game, immigration etc. than by vanilla mechanics.

I went with an 18 civ list, both because this is the number used by Civ V and VI and because I think narrowing things down like this makes for much more interesting debate:

Rome
Greece
Spain
Britain
Russia
Mongolia
China
Vietnam
India
Persia
Babylon
Egypt
Mali
Swahili
Inca
Maya
Iroquois
Haida

 

[Xandinho]

@Amrunril, good list, I would only take out Haida (because I am not very interested in most North American natives, I do not see need for 2 of them in the base game) and Swahili (because I am more interested in Ethiopia, Ashanti, Benin or even Nubia as African civs).

It would be interesting to have Vietnam in the base game, other surprise choices could be Maori or Nepal.

Edit: I would not leave France outside, I think it the most important European civ after Greece and Rome.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Taking out Greece, which was the very foundation of Western civilization does not seem right at all.

 

[Vahnstad]

But why do we need to leave out a major European power. Greece, Spain, France, England, Rome, Russia and Germany should all be in, period, and if people will complain about eurocentrism, well go ahead. I'm sure people will even complain more when one of the civs mentioned above is missing. Leaving France out is ridicilous, also because their culture is much different than Britain, Germany or a viking civ, also not justified. France is an important country for almost 1500 years.

Also, someone here waited to include the Dutch until expansion 3, and at that point there were almost 30 to 40 other civs in the game, but still the Dutch weren't important enough at that point. ...

 

[Vahnstad]

What is wrong with this?

Spain (Philip II)
America (Theodore Roosevelt)
Germany (Frederick Barbarossa)
France (Louis XIV or Joan of Arc)
Greece (Pericles)
England (Elizabeth I or Victoria
Russia (Peter The Great)
Rome (Marcus Aurelius or Trajan)
China (Qin Shi Huang)
Japan (Hojo Tokumone)
Aztec (Montezuma)
Inca (Huayna Capuac)
India (Gandhi)
Persia (Cyrus The Great)
Mongolia (Genghis Khan)
Egypt (Hatsheput or Ramesses II)
Mali (Mansa Musa)
Arabia (Harun-Al-Rashid)

and if we had to include two more
Sumer (Gilgamesh)
Zulu (Shaka)

 

[IgorS]

What is wrong with this?

Spain (Philip II)
America (Theodore Roosevelt)
Germany (Frederick Barbarossa)
France (Louis XIV or Joan of Arc)
Greece (Pericles)
England (Elizabeth I or Victoria
Russia (Peter The Great)
Rome (Marcus Aurelius or Trajan)
China (Qin Shi Huang)
Japan (Hojo Tokumone)
Aztec (Montezuma)
Inca (Huayna Capuac)
India (Gandhi)
Persia (Cyrus The Great)
Mongolia (Genghis Khan)
Egypt (Hatsheput or Ramesses II)
Mali (Mansa Musa)
Arabia (Harun-Al-Rashid)

and if we had to include two more
Sumer (Gilgamesh)
Zulu (Shaka)

I'd take it, but I would only change Gandhi for an actual Indian leader, preferably Ashoka, and change Sumer for Babylonia. Oh, and not have Joan of Arc as a French leader.

 

[Vahnstad]

I would definitely include other Indian leaders and possibly a Mughal civ, just maybe not for the base game (and let's hope Firaxis has plans too for India).

 

[IgorS]

I would definitely include other Indian leaders and possibly a Mughal civ, just maybe not for the base game (and let's hope Firaxis has plans too for India).

What I meant was I would not include Gandhi at all. If you want a modern Indian leader, take Nehru.