Criminals and Politics

[Portuguese]

No crime at all!

 

[CommiePlanner]

A convicted felon should have a right to work on the white house staff. Not all politicians are crooks, just like all priests aren't pedaphiles (sp?). I have known many politicians in the past few years and they all work very hard for the public good, even one who was acused of embezling public funds, (it was later determined that he didnt). The real crooks are the ones in the private sector that have no morals, ethics, or have sworn no binding oath like politicians do.

 

[Richard III]

Originally posted by CommiePlanner
A convicted felon should have a right to work on the white house staff....

1. "There are a lot of conservatives on these posts" is your title. What does that have to do with this discussion?

Originally posted by CommiePlanner
...I have known many politicians in the past few years and they all work very hard for the public good, even one who was acused of embezling public funds, (it was later determined that he didnt). The real crooks are the ones in the private sector that have no morals, ethics, or have sworn no binding oath like politicians do.

"All" work hard for the public good, and swore a binding oath?

I work in politics, and know hundreds of politicians. And while I know scores of fantastic ones who are hardworking paragons of virtue, I also know just as many who are worthless hacks who are in it for themselves and their ego, and scores more who really are out-and-out crooks.

Anyone who actually beleives that the public sector is any different from the private sector in terms of "binding oaths," morals or ethics could obviously use a little conservativing up. Where are you writing from, utopia?

R.III

 

[Franklyn]

Actually, what we should be talking about is the content of the original post - namely, Ari Fleischer's refusal to answer a question posed to him. If lying were a crime, Fleischer would a three-strikes-you're-out felon by a factor of, oh, I can't count that high.

As for whether a criminal should serve on the White House staff, it depends on the crime. I think the public looks at a convicted armed robber differently than, say, someone who withheld information from Congress. One's a potential political liability; the other is just a good man who got punished for being a patriot.

 

[amadeus]

How about the fact that President George H.W. Bush pardoned him?

 

[Franklyn]

It's irrelevant. Besides, you missed my point, which is to say there's a sliding scale of criminality. If Abrams had held up liquor stores in his youth, Dubya would have caught holy hell for it. Any president would have.

Besides, Abrams didn't need Congressional approval for his latest gig, which avoided the issue of having to dig up the moldy political corpse that is Iran-Contra.

 

[Richard III]

Originally posted by Franklyn
Actually, what we should be talking about is the content of the original post - namely, Ari Fleischer's refusal to answer a question posed to him. If lying were a crime, Fleischer would a three-strikes-you're-out felon by a factor of, oh, I can't count that high.

Hey, muckracker! Living up to the title! After all, lying IS considered a professional crime in the media relations world. But I only vaguely remember one potential strike - surrounding the whole issue of the President not returning to Washington in 2001. Not answering a question, on the other hand, is expected! As they say in PR training camp, "there is no law that says you have to answer a reporter's question."

There is, on the other hand, a law that says you cannot perjure yourself before courts and congressional investigations. And on that note, Rmsharpe, I don't think the pardon takes away from the problem in the Abrams case. For starters, he pleaded guilty, so the pardon was clearly not a pardon issued for, say, a wrongful conviction. And as I implied, I think the pardon should help Abrams, and that he should be entitled to get a nice corporate lobbying job somewhere - but putting him back into the same field that he perjured about is a bit of a leap.

R.III

 

[Franklyn]

Unfortunately, R3, lying to journalists is no crime to flaks, at least not one they'll get punished for. In fact, it's a time-honored tradition among PR people. Not all PR people speak with a forked tongue - some of them actually help me do my job. But there are enough liars out there in the PR world to give the decent ones a bad names.

And Fleischer is one of the bad ones - perhaps the worst, because of the role he plays as official spokesman for the leader of the most powerful nation on earth. Here's an interesting piece on Fleischer's role in Vandalgate, the big to-do over the alleged WH vandalism after the Dems moved out in Jan. 01.

Go here for more.

Pardoning is a whole 'nother matter. Ford pardoned Nixon. Bush 41 pardoned Abrams. Remember, it's all about loyalty in the Bush 43 White House, and Abrams proved himself a good soldier in the effort to protect Reagan and Bush 41.

 

[Richard III]

Originally posted by Franklyn
Unfortunately, R3, lying to journalists is no crime to flaks, at least not one they'll get punished for. In fact, it's a time-honored tradition among PR people. Not all PR people speak with a forked tongue - some of them actually help me do my job. But there are enough liars out there in the PR world to give the decent ones a bad names.

I take it from your tone that you are on the other side of Our fence.

Speaking from the dark side, I'm sorry to hear what you say. Where I come from, if a political PR flak/hack (which I am) is caught in a lie - not spinning, but lying - he or she is deliberately crucified with lousy coverage or frozen out for the duration. I wholeheartedly support this policy. In my entire career, I've never lied once, and was only asked to once - and managed, through some careful maneuvering, to turn it into a well-timed omission instead.

And the system works from where I sit; a few rank amateurs lied here and there, but none of the pro's I've worked with do.

Originally posted by Franklyn
Here's an interesting piece on Fleischer's role in Vandalgate, the big to-do over the alleged WH vandalism after the Dems moved out in Jan. 01.

Pardoning is a whole 'nother matter....

I'm reading the linked article in another window as I type.

I concur with your assessment of these pardons, although I was trying to stick to the topic at hand as to whether we should forgive and forget

 

[Franklyn]

Indeed, I am on the other side of the fence. You're right about most pros in your field sticking to the truth - to their credit, they do, and I thank the good ones I work with. Spin I can deal with - I expect it, in fact. (It's your job to make the folks you work for look good - even the densest journo understands that.) Lying, on the other hand, just burns my socks. What galls me about Fleischer is he does it and gets away with it. The WH press corps whines and moans about him all the time, but that's about all they can do about it.

Back on topic: Now that R3 and I have pretty much settled the matter, we should either let this thing die or get someone in here to disagree with us. C'mon, someone, bring it!

 

[Pliny The Elder]

I think all jobs that draw a check from the US government should be filled by a lottery system.