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Crises Eras

j51

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The crises should be moved to 2 mini eras. (I think I’ve read singing similar on this forum, but not as comprehensive.) I don’t know what to name the crisis ages to make them more universal sounding but they’d correspond to the early Middle Ages and the Age of Enlightenment.

Within those two eras all the crises for that transition are happening simultaneously at varying severity. The player could choose whether to switch to their next civ at the beginning or the end of these eras. This gives them a little more control of the narrative. Maybe there could be goals that let them preserve their civs fully into the next age with extra legacies instead of switching?

Also there would be a small amount of technologies and civics to research. And the tier one units for the exploration and modern eras would be unlocked that way giving the player more time with them.

In the case of the first crisis/early middle age, the world religions are founded, (but not by the player) based on which civs are in the game. The players would then try to grab control of them going into exploration.

What do people think?
 
Would more transitions be beneficial to the player? I've already seen some regular posters express that adding more Ages is only going to further the tedium, unless the existing Ages are improved considerably.

I think Crises need work, but I don't know what exactly. I think they all need slightly different things (depending on the Crisis). For example, I personally have significant issues reading when the plague crisis is happening. Is this an issue with the balancing? Not really. The art? Possibly. The UI? Definitely.

Other Crises are likely to have a different combination of issues. I'm not sure changing how the Crises themselves work is the best way forwards. Maybe making it less completely random? I think folks have tried to see if a particular playthrough influences the type of Crisis you get. I don't know if we ever got confirmation that that was the case.
 
I think people don't realise how fundamental eras are to the way the game is constructed. All these sorta suggestions I see would require a lott of work.

Imo the current system just needs refining to become good, an entire overhaul on this scale is overkill.
 
Yeah. Good points. I thought of it as a way to fill in the gaps in the timeline (“the dark ages” and the “age of enlightenment” are two of my favorites) while using the modular era system, and as a way to have some slight asynchronicity between civs from different eras. Some computer users could pick an early and some a late transition so that the Abbasids and the Khmer could properly coexist if even briefly, for example.

The gaps in the timeline could more simply be fixed by expanding the eras and their trees though. And I guess we’ll just have to live with some of the anachronistic civ placements.
 
I don’t agree with separate eras…but the Crises could be more significant to help lessen the impact of the transition itself.
 
I wouldn't necessarily hate if during the transition you had some special traditions to pick from, that either led into your next civ choice or something else to even further distinguish that time, beyond the crisis policies.

But yeah, I think that's realistically a step further than is really plausible, given how the game is structured. Never mind the cases like me not actually unlocking the civ that I eventually transitioned to until near the end of the crisis, when I got that last city down. I could definitely see some games where I'd kind of like to see how the last 1.3 of the age plays out before committing to my next civ.

That all said, I do like the idea of spawning a whole new culture or science tree when the crisis starts. So not only do you have the crisis policies, now maybe you have other specific items you can unlock or trigger, giving you even more to figure out.
I don’t agree with separate eras…but the Crises could be more significant to help lessen the impact of the transition itself.

To me, I just want some sort of level of balance in the crisis. Are they a mild annoyance? Or do I need to completely reconfigure my empire and strategy to handle it? Ideally I think a level of balance like in Mario Kart, where the top civ has more challenge to fight it off, would at least give me some more satisfaction of making it through.
 
I'd like the crisis to start at like 95% progress and last X turns after 100%
I've played every game with long ages and I can't imagine how the default must feel.

Why bother upgrading to those final tech units, I never get time to use anything, or I don't get time to build some of the later wonders.
My general feeling is once I get everything up and running to full advantage the crisis is starting and the game is racing to end of the age.
 
I like that idea, let the age last until the age tracker gets to full and THEN start the crisis. The length of said crisis could then depend on player actions where specific actions have to be taken for the crisis to intensify or end. Often times it feels to me like crises happen very passively where I'm not focusing on it and they just end when I'm doing something completely unrelated to them so giving player a direct way to engage with and resolve the crisis seems like a plus to me. This could lead to interesting strategy where some players could purposely extend the crisis era to continue their goals while others may try to actively end it.
 
I'd like the crisis to start at like 95% progress and last X turns after 100%
I've played every game with long ages and I can't imagine how the default must feel.

Why bother upgrading to those final tech units, I never get time to use anything, or I don't get time to build some of the later wonders.
My general feeling is once I get everything up and running to full advantage the crisis is starting and the game is racing to end of the age.

I think once you hit the crisis, it should switch to a fixed turn counter at that point. So once you trigger the crisis, you have 40 turns. It intensifies with 20 turns left, and the final piece is the last 10 turns. I've definitely had games where I trigger the last legacy of 2 different paths, and maybe complete a future tech, and zoom through the crisis in like 10 turns max. Also it means you don't have to like micro-manage your science vs culture to make sure both future tech/civic hit the same turn to avoid accidentally over-running the turn counter.
 
I don’t agree with separate eras…but the Crises could be more significant to help lessen the impact of the transition itself.
This pretty much sums up the problems with the Crisis periods now: they are annoying, but generally not a crisis. I have never lost a settlement to a crisis, and rarely even seen AI Civs lose a city or settlement. What kind of Crisis: invasion, plague, general Happiness deficit - seems to be utterly random, as are the actions the gamer can take to alleviate the crisis: a miscellaneous combination of repairing destruction by mobs, adopting Civics, keeping general Happiness up.

I think that making the Crisis both more specific and more dangerous, and giving the gamer/AI more specific ways of dealing with the Crisis which in turn lead to specific outcomes at the end of the Age would do two important things:

1. It would make the Crisis period a genuine Age Ending period - you would be forced to deal directly with the Crisis instead of riding through it while continuing your regular activities.

2. One of the specific outcomes from your reaction to the Crisis could be one that allows you to keep the 'same' Civ in the next Age. I put same in quotes because, of course, it would not be completely the same: among your reactions to the crisis would be some that would change your Civ in some pretty fundamental ways, like the differences between western Imperial Rome and Byzantium or between the Han Dynasty and the Sui or Tang Dynasties.

To start the discussion, note that the Crisis period that ended western Rome and is generally considered the model for the Antiquity Crisis had the following actual causes/events and effects:

1. Plagues that depopulated Rome, which lost an estimated 1/3 of its population in the 2nd and 3rd centuries CE. That in turn left large parts of the Empire depopulated, so that German peoples were invited in to 'refill' those lands. But those people came with their own leaders and culture, which destabilized the Empire.

2. A tax system so inefficient that Rome struggled to pay for a 500,000+ man army, especially when large numbers of tax-payers went missing from the plagues. That in turn meant more and more of the army was in act recruited from German and other non-Roman peoples. They were very good soldiers, but, again, not such good Romans, and the increasing reliance on them, again, destabilized the empire.

3. A set of loyalties that did not center on the Emperor or the Imperium, but on individual patronage - from and by army commanders, governors and such which made it easy for those to set up independent Power Bases and try for the Imperial throne. That resulted in the 'crisis of the third century' in which Rome spent most of that century changing Emperors forcefully and to the accompaniment of civil war, assassination, and general disruption.

So, any Crisis potentially giving the same amount of disruption - that wipes out a Civ completely and replaces it politically, militarily, and eventually culturally - would pretty much have to have similar characteristics:

1. Dramatic loss of population, either directly by dying of plague or indirectly by moving out of Unlivable Cities to the 'safer' countryside.

2. Loss of Loyalty. Settlements, areas, military units - none should be entirely trustworthy and rebellion of some or most a near-constant threat.

3. Loss of territory and settlements. Western Rome famously had already lost control of Britain and most of Gaul/France before Rome itself was ever directly threatened, and wasn't even trying to get them back. By the time Rome 'fell' in the late 5th century, Britain, Gaul, Spain, and north Africa were forming entirely new Post-Roman states. In game, that means either new (Exploration Age) Civs or IPs.

Such wide-spread dismantling of the Civ you just spent 100 or so turns building would be a very Hard Sell to gamers, but the negatives could be countered by giving the gamer mechanisms only available in the Crisis to start forming their new Civ - either a continuation the old one or an entirely new one, or something in between - the differences, say, in an Antiquity Roman context between the Byzantine version of 'SPQR', the post-Roman Abbasids of the middle east or Al-Andulus of Spain, or the German/Frankish Merovingian Kingdom of Francia.
 
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I did have one game recently (Fred baroque, Greece) where the antiquity happiness crisis actually was really challenging. It did make changing to Bulgaria feel earned!
 
I think once you hit the crisis, it should switch to a fixed turn counter at that point. So once you trigger the crisis, you have 40 turns. It intensifies with 20 turns left, and the final piece is the last 10 turns. I've definitely had games where I trigger the last legacy of 2 different paths, and maybe complete a future tech, and zoom through the crisis in like 10 turns max. Also it means you don't have to like micro-manage your science vs culture to make sure both future tech/civic hit the same turn to avoid accidentally over-running the turn counter.
Yep this just happened to me, was cruising along, crisis well managed, starting to plan a war I knew I wouldn't have much time for, hit 2 legacy bonuses at the same time and it just ended the next turn or so.

On Boris's comment:
I would love for the crisis to be more than an annoyance, apart from one game where I overextended and it hurt my standing in the next age.

Some interesting things that could work so long as they are well telegraphed & explained, while allowing for mitigation/prevention:

Population loss that force some cities to become towns they can lose status mid-crisis; lose their adjacency bonuses as their ability to govern manage those institutions fail.
Settlements splitting off to become new civs or independents in the next age; a bunch of frontier settlements between me and my neighbor decide they are better off banding together
Loss of culture, some cities and towns lose their buildings altogether, no base resources in next age.

I think the player base would think it is fun, especially if you mix in some positive surprises in the new age start.

Some bonuses applied to cities that thrived during the crisis, resiliency bonuses, take less damage in disasters/cheaper to clean up, slightly higher growth rate, production rate etc.
Maybe have some " Between Age " buildings that spring up in your settlements that provide some interesting bonuses, you can leave them be or overbuild them. (Think pre-hospital/university buildings that can be upgraded into the full fledged version later.
Depending on your legacy strengths you can get some head starts, for example, you have a scout ship that already sitting on your nearby islands, ready to hop into the ocean; A temple already built nearby your wonders with a pantheon ready to sprout into a new religion.

An IP near your borders, half friendly to you, that already has a monastery built ready to offer you tech boosts.
 
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I like that idea, let the age last until the age tracker gets to full and THEN start the crisis. The length of said crisis could then depend on player actions where specific actions have to be taken for the crisis to intensify or end. Often times it feels to me like crises happen very passively where I'm not focusing on it and they just end when I'm doing something completely unrelated to them so giving player a direct way to engage with and resolve the crisis seems like a plus to me. This could lead to interesting strategy where some players could purposely extend the crisis era to continue their goals while others may try to actively end it.
It's exactly as it works now, except the progress you want to display as 100% is now displayed as 70%. It's very easy to mod in a custom age tracker, which will display separately first 70% as age tracker and the last 30% as nee crisis tracker.
 
Would more transitions be beneficial to the player? I've already seen some regular posters express that adding more Ages is only going to further the tedium, unless the existing Ages are improved considerably.

I think Crises need work, but I don't know what exactly. I think they all need slightly different things (depending on the Crisis). For example, I personally have significant issues reading when the plague crisis is happening. Is this an issue with the balancing? Not really. The art? Possibly. The UI? Definitely.

Other Crises are likely to have a different combination of issues. I'm not sure changing how the Crises themselves work is the best way forwards. Maybe making it less completely random? I think folks have tried to see if a particular playthrough influences the type of Crisis you get. I don't know if we ever got confirmation that that was the case.

This has to be the case. Out of all my age transitions I've had plague once and barbarians twice. Happiness like 15 times. I suppose that could still be random but it's unlikely.
 
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It's exactly as it works now, except the progress you want to display as 100% is now displayed as 70%. It's very easy to mod in a custom age tracker, which will display separately first 70% as age tracker and the last 30% as nee crisis tracker.
Close, but not exactly. What I'm suggesting is more a change to how progress is added to the tracker once the crisis starts. Progress in the crisis age would be added by achieving specific goals related to that crisis rather than all of the normal things that add to the age progress like completing legacy paths and researching future tech/civics.
Basically a crisis legacy path if that makes sense.
 
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Close, but not exactly. What I'm suggesting is more a change to how progress is added to the tracker once the crisis starts. Progress in the crisis age would be added by achieving specific goals related to that crisis rather than all of the normal things that add to the age progress like completing legacy paths and researching future tech/civics.
Basically a crisis legacy path if that makes sense.
Instead of Legacy Paths, the Crisis period, then, would have its own Crisis Paths.
As in, perhaps:
a Plague Path
an Invasion Path
an (Un)Happiness Path
And each Path would have its own specific Goals and the 'progress' on each or any Path would be in two directions: Success in alleviating the Crisis actions, or Failure.

Progress enough on the Failure side, and the Crisis period ends with some of your settlements in revolt and therefore not likely to be yours at the start of the next Age, population lost so some other settlements are much smaller (and so is your military force), and your old Civ in such disarray that it is replaced by a new Civ in the next generation.

Progress/Success in dodging the Crisis actions, and the Age ends with your Civ still functional - although possibly with some settlements reduced and population lost - and you have the choice of staying with the same Civ in the next Age or with a new Civ carrying on similar culture and traditions. As in the current India and China direct paths, or a Rome - Byzantium path, or a Gaul - Francia - France path, or similar Direct Progressions (which the game needs more of in any case).

But note, this is not certain, it is simply an extra Choice you get by successfully negotiating the Crisis. Unsuccessfully negotiating the Crisis, and you may end up in the next Age playing something far more random.
 
Instead of Legacy Paths, the Crisis period, then, would have its own Crisis Paths.
As in, perhaps:
a Plague Path
an Invasion Path
an (Un)Happiness Path
And each Path would have its own specific Goals and the 'progress' on each or any Path would be in two directions: Success in alleviating the Crisis actions, or Failure.

Progress enough on the Failure side, and the Crisis period ends with some of your settlements in revolt and therefore not likely to be yours at the start of the next Age, population lost so some other settlements are much smaller (and so is your military force), and your old Civ in such disarray that it is replaced by a new Civ in the next generation.

Progress/Success in dodging the Crisis actions, and the Age ends with your Civ still functional - although possibly with some settlements reduced and population lost - and you have the choice of staying with the same Civ in the next Age or with a new Civ carrying on similar culture and traditions. As in the current India and China direct paths, or a Rome - Byzantium path, or a Gaul - Francia - France path, or similar Direct Progressions (which the game needs more of in any case).

But note, this is not certain, it is simply an extra Choice you get by successfully negotiating the Crisis. Unsuccessfully negotiating the Crisis, and you may end up in the next Age playing something far more random.

Speaking in game terms, the key points to me of a crisis are that they have to matter for you, but you have to have a way to "defeat" them. Like I don't want a plague that just wipes out 1/3 of my empire and there's nothing I can do about it. But they should be punishing enough if you don't fight it. I think for balance, they should also hit the leaders more than those trailing. It's hard to do, because usually anything you have that counters an action, someone in better position is also better equipped to fight it off. Like if I'm running away in gold, buying plague doctors is really easy. Or one game where I was in great spot in the crisis, I had the barbarian invasion and I was just overflowing in troops that I just used the new barbarian camps to farm XP and it cost me nothing.

I do think that they eased off some of the crisis damages, probably the same reason why they eased off the dark ages in civ 6. Even if you leave the current mode as the default, having a "Dramatic Crisis Mode" where you can really get hit hard might give some people more of a challenge. Or you just do extra scaling to the difficulty level, so people at deity just get hit hard. I guess if the barbarian invasion troops had like +15 combat strength against Deity players, that would at least take some concentration in fighting them off...
 
Instead of Legacy Paths, the Crisis period, then, would have its own Crisis Paths.
As in, perhaps:
a Plague Path
an Invasion Path
an (Un)Happiness Path
And each Path would have its own specific Goals and the 'progress' on each or any Path would be in two directions: Success in alleviating the Crisis actions, or Failure.

Progress enough on the Failure side, and the Crisis period ends with some of your settlements in revolt and therefore not likely to be yours at the start of the next Age, population lost so some other settlements are much smaller (and so is your military force), and your old Civ in such disarray that it is replaced by a new Civ in the next generation.

Progress/Success in dodging the Crisis actions, and the Age ends with your Civ still functional - although possibly with some settlements reduced and population lost - and you have the choice of staying with the same Civ in the next Age or with a new Civ carrying on similar culture and traditions. As in the current India and China direct paths, or a Rome - Byzantium path, or a Gaul - Francia - France path, or similar Direct Progressions (which the game needs more of in any case).

But note, this is not certain, it is simply an extra Choice you get by successfully negotiating the Crisis. Unsuccessfully negotiating the Crisis, and you may end up in the next Age playing something far more random.
While I like the idea of unique “Crisis progression” and Civ unlocks that are available in Crisis, I think the “successor civs should not be gated by it.

Han should ALWAYS unlock Ming
Normans should ALWAYS unlock Britain, etc.
regardless of how well you did in the Crisis.
(unless you were eliminated…although maybe “eliminated in crisis” should have a possibility to start anew…ie a Crisis Dark Age Legacy where you get to start in control of a random bunch of your settlements that were taken during the Crisis/a bunch of Military units)

Doing well in the Crisis should mean
1. a difference in the Narrative for transitioning to the next age
2. Doing well in the Crisis, less settlements and population lost, etc.
3. maybe some additional legacy options

Note:#2 and 3 are already there (although #2 is muted because of how weak Crises are and #3 could be expanded on)
 
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I think most people recognise that the idea for Crises is ok, but the implementation is just half assed. I don't mind some sort of handbrake on the end of an era, some event that makes the whole narrative of that era more interesting and so that you don't just keep hitting end turn. However, the actual outcome of the current system is that the player really just wants to finish the era as quickly as possible and loses interest in doing much else until the next era (for me anyway).

My issue with Crises is that they don't feel like a crisis. They feel like 'extra red cards with modifiers that suddenly get applied to my cities'. Civ has always had an issue with replacing immersion with cards and modifiers and I don't like it. Outside of some stinky green smoke for plagues, the game doesn't look or feel different during a crisis. It doesn't feel like an event.

I remember back to Warhammer Total War, the first game. When they had the Chaos Invasion, it did actually feel like the world had changed. One of the reasons for that was that diplomacy changed, and that was an area that felt impactful. Suddenly your enemies realised someone bigger was around and teamed up with you. The implementation also wasn't always amazing, but it did feel like an event.

One of the issues Civ 7 has right now is that it feels lonely, you don't feel like you are playing with or against anyone, and the way a Crisis happens is the same. It doesn't feel like a map wide issue, it's just stuff that happens in your cities. Boring.

Instead, what if a horde of horse archers arrived on the borders and started razing settlements? What if there was a flood that wiped out sections of the map? What if there was a genuine drought or climate event that changed the landscape for a number of turns. That would be genuinely interesting. Right now it's just having to slot in cards.. christ that's dull.
 
I think most people recognise that the idea for Crises is ok, but the implementation is just half assed
I disagree, the idea of crises is bad by itself. Empire building games are focused on progress and it's natural to only face challenges coming from either exploration or other empires. Crises feel artificial in all Civ games, in Stellaris and all other more or less similar games I've seen. Crises don't fix snowballing, only increase it and overall don't have a clear gameplay goal. They are just source of frustration coming from the desire of making more "realistic" game.
 
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