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Criticise these alternate traits

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Munch, Nov 14, 2007.

  1. Some guy

    Some guy Warlord

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    I've been thinking; traits like protective and aggressive don't necessarily have be limited to military. They could imply to "economic" or "religious" aggression. Like with Japan's protectionism with their own economy or the religious protectionism of Theocratic countries, or aggression with marketing and spreading religions in foreign territory.
     
  2. Munch

    Munch Benevolent Despot

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    I like the idea of an 'organised military' like you say, but I think there is a real danger of total imbalance if this is made explicit in the trait bonuses. At the minute I hope that an organised military is implicit as I have set up 'IMP'; by this I mean that having and wielding an organised military is made both easier and more rewarding if you have this trait. Giving certain units the march or commando bonuses would be very powerful - these are difficult to obtain promotions and some have said before that having either of these would be worth some kind of negative financial trait because they are such powerful bonuses. Have a look at Antilogic's posts on page 8 and earlier, he argues strongly that even giving mounted units combat I is excessive, as it makes an army of march promoted units easier to achieve, which he regards as too strong a bonus. I am pretty certain that giving march or commando 'off the bat' to certain units would be too much.

    Your train of thought is interesting though, and I would like to be able to implement a more organised military bonus, such as supply lines like you say. The problem for me is that that really surpasses what I can currently do by only editing .xml files. For example, what if melee units could build roads? What if you had a cheaper upkeep for military or reduced war weariness? These things would be nice, and could possibly 'feel right' - the first problem though is implementation.

    Again, good ideas, but how could this be implemented, and made to feel right? For example if a protectionist economy was a bonus, what if you were running free market? I think these concepts are covered by mercantilism and theocracy already - it would be nice to mimic their effects in traits but they would be highly situational in their utility.
     
  3. dragodon64

    dragodon64 Noble

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    While I realise its good for traits to not be too heavily overpowered, I don't see why they need to be exactly balanced. A slight advantage or disadvantage only doesn't ruin the game, it only adds flavor. Some of this evening out results in traits so bland they would take us back to CivII's monotonous traitless nations which only differed in color.
     
  4. Ekmek

    Ekmek on steam: ekmek_e

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    do you think the 100% great people is too unbalancing? any good alternative?

    I think any bonus for world wonders are unbalancing too. maybe add a production bonus ????
     
  5. Some guy

    Some guy Warlord

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    Aggressive could enable a cheaper maintenance cost for your corporations in foreign territory; better results with religious spread or merchant missions (I'm not sure if some of these are possible though). Protective could enable higher maintenance costs for foreign corporations in your territory; decreased likeliness of foreign corporations and non-state religion spread in your territory; lesser money yield results from foreign merchants. I know some of these are already used in some ways through civics, but these are just random ideas.
     
  6. King Flevance

    King Flevance Deity

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    I think this makes protective even worse. In this example your merchants suck more, foreign corperations cost more, and all you get in return is a higher chance of spread rate in return. It would have to quadruple or something to make this plausible IMO. I do like the idea of protective gaining some sort of non-military benefit but I think this is too obscure to really matter personally. Perhaps a lowering of inflation could represent a protective view towards their economy?
     
  7. Some guy

    Some guy Warlord

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    I meant merchants from other nations sent to your nation would lose a large percentage of commerce yields, not your merchants; and foreign corporations owned by other nations have a harder time managing and such in your territory. I accidentally wrote stuff I didn't want to write.
     
  8. King Flevance

    King Flevance Deity

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    Ah I get you were saying. It's an interesting idea but that is a long mouseover tip to describe protective :p
     
  9. CLST

    CLST Warlord

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    Protective... Just give CG1 and Drill1 to ALL units.

    Voila, Protective is now awesome, and aggressive is now weak

    So we give Aggressive combat one and combat 2 to all units!

    Now Tokogawa is incredible, so we change his traits to make him normal again.
     
  10. wjdygert

    wjdygert Chieftain

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    i play with the civ gold mod but i'd love to try this one too. so could you tell me exactly which files must be replaced by your new ones? i've tried it on my own but imperialistic ends up with the fast settlers for some reason. i replaced the trait file in warlords, all the others in bts. is there something i'm missing?

    these traits look great btw, good work!
     
  11. Munch

    Munch Benevolent Despot

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    You don't need to replace any files to use this mod. Just download the .zip file, and extract the folder "Alternate Traits v3" to your "...\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Beyond the Sword\Mods" folder. That mods folder should then contain just a bunch of folders, each of which is a mod (for example, "Next War", "Charlemagne" and "Alternate Traits v3").

    To play the mod, go to 'advanced' -> 'load a mod' in game and select Alternate Traits v3. Any other trouble with this please let me know.

    Oh and thanks btw, let me know what you think once you've played it too!
     
  12. champ82

    champ82 Immortal Ruler

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    ... I don't like these changes at all.

    Agg
    - Free Promo (Combat I): Melee, Gunpowder, Mounted, Helicopter, Siege, Armour units

    Actually, I do like this one. Agg is pretty weak as is (unless you have all peaceful victories shut off.) Wait, are we keeping double speed barracks, cause we should, without it it's underpowered (and the Zulus are pretty worthless, and the Zulus are classic Civ).

    Cha
    - No Anarchy
    - Double Speed: Monument, Colosseum, National Wonders

    This is interesting. I like the logic behind it, but it's too powerful. No anarchy plus double production NE, IW, HE – only Ramsses II should be able to do this.

    Cre
    - +2 per City
    - +25% World Wonder production

    Again, interesting. The thing is, I think IND is well balanced in the current game. Do the people who think IND is too powerful play above prince? That's a serious question, not a snide remark.

    Imp
    - Double Speed: Jail
    - -25% Experience needed for Promos
    - +50% Great General points

    This could already be the weakest trait, but what made it decent was that it was good for two things. Now it's not. Could you imagine trying to win space race or cultural with this version? Taking out the REXing advantage to IMP is huge.

    Also, it laps into the current version of CHA, which I think is well balanced.

    Ind
    - Double Speed: Forge, Factory, Levee
    - +75% Worker, Work Boat

    Too powerful. Not even FDR can do this in the game, and he was like the best president ever, and his late UU and UB compensate for him being such a P-I-M-P

    Org- -50% Civic Upkeep
    - Double Speed: Courthouse

    It doesn't do anything extra. It just helps $. The current version helps with $, production (factories) and even food (lighthouse.) That's what makes it good in BTS, it's a hodge poge, like CHA or IMP

    Phi- +100%
    - +1 per City

    I think they left base science bonuses out of CIV 4 because it was too powerful in CIV 3. The current Uni bonus is better because while extreamly helpful, when you discover them they take a fairly long to build, even with PHI. It's a good trade off. Spend time hitting the books, you can learn a lot. Having all your people in all your cities spending time hitting the books at the same time, some less civilized strong men might teach you a lesson.

    Pro
    - Double Speed: Castle, Bomb Shelter
    - +1 for: Walls, Bunker
    - Free Promo (City Garrison I): Archer, Gunpowder units
    - +50% Domestic Great General points

    Hmmm... No double speed walls? No drill promotion? A lot of players only build walls when they have protective leaders. Interesting though.

    Spi- +1 per City
    - Double Speed: Temples, Monasteries, Cathedrals

    The no anarchy SPI is more balanced. I don't think it's historically inaccurate either, Ghandi and MLK changed governments without promoting bloodshed or getting their countries into civil wars. This version is weaker, but it's also redundant. Happiness + double speed temples – those are some shinny happy people. I like the current CHA bonus – it makes sense, you can get people to be happy before religion – they're just proud and nationalistic.


    IN CONCLUSION :

    I hope you found this helpful. I didn't play the mods, sorry. Basically I think BTS did a pretty good job balancing things, so it's hard to improve.
     
  13. champ82

    champ82 Immortal Ruler

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    I like this. What if for every trait combination there was a synergy bonus?

    Example – Justinian IMP & SPI – his state religion spreads quicker both in country (perhaps even automatically spreading over cities with a different religion) and out of country – I guess ½ priced missionaries could do the same.

    Saladin – SPI & PRO – units get another protective bonus if running any state religion. This is probably too powerful, but I'm just brainstorming.

    Whoever is financial and protective, it eludes me right now - The option of making foreign companies pay twice as much to set up shop.

    Louis – 10-15% production of artistic wonders, national or world -i.e. yes to : heroic epic, national epic, hermitage, sistine chapel, hollywood – no to: ironworks, three gorges dam.

    Mansu – bonus to holy city shrine $.

    Washington – medic promotions are cheaper than others.

    I'm not saying these should be the exact synergy trait bonuses, they are just ideas. The programmers would have to be very careful not to make them too powerful or too weak. Making it in line with history would be very hard too.

    I like the game as is. Your traits, UU and UB are very important, but it's pretty even over all. Every time the makers make the civs more unique there is danger of things becoming unbalanced.
     
  14. wjdygert

    wjdygert Chieftain

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    thanks for the quick reply. what i'm trying to do is play the civ gold mod WITH these traits. and of course i can't load both mods. ;) so i'd like to manually replace the xml files that need to be replaced in their appropriate folders. like i said, i think i got them all right except for the quick settlers, which are still assigned to the imperialistic trait.

    i'm really itching to try these traits out, so in the mean time i'll just play a non-civ gold game with your traits to see how it plays. hope i clarified my problem.
     
  15. Munch

    Munch Benevolent Despot

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    Ok I see what you mean. If you open the "Alternate Traits v3" folder you will notice that there is a folder structure in there. The game implements the changes described by this mod because it prioritises these files rather than the identically named files in the corresponding folders of your install directory. Replacing the initial files with these (as you have been attempting to do) is one way of achieving your aim. But in order for this to work you must replace the files in the most recent relevent expansion pack. For instance, the traits have not changed since warlords, so there is no Civ4TraitInfos.xml in the BTS install directory - in this case you have to overwrite the one in the next most recent expansion, warlords.

    Once you have made sure that all the files provided in my mod have overwritten their most recent official incarnations, you need to make sure that civ gold is not specifying files which my mod also specifies, as of course when you load civ gold it will ignore the 'default' files in the install directory, whether they are official or not. If it is the case that civ gold specifies say, a Civ4TraitInfos.xml file, you will have to either overwrite the civ gold version, or come up with a clever hybrid xml file.

    PM me if you have any further trouble.

    Thanks for the constructive criticism. Predictably, I suggest you try it out to see if your overpowered and underpowered predictions are correct. As for IND, I agree that the Firaxis version is not unbalanced, however my initial gripe with it was that it was instead misrepresentative of 'industrious' leaders, Stalin in particular.

    P-I-M-P. :lol:
     
  16. Sian

    Sian Emperor

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    i do in general like your rewoking ... might be taking a swing on it in my next game
     
  17. wjdygert

    wjdygert Chieftain

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    thanks again for your help. i ended up putting your xml files in the civ gold assets folder and the problem still remained. then i did some digging and found a file called EDUCommon_CIV4UnitInfos buried within civgold. that's where the offending settler text was. switched expansive for imperialistic and the problem was solved. :goodjob:

    as for some constructive criticism, i'm partial to organized getting no anarchy and a nerfing of the civic maintenance. charismatic historical leaders like hitler and mao have certainly been able to change how their countries were governed but at the expense of the rule of just law. i'd consider an organized leader like fdr more appropriate for no anarchy. it makes sense if you consider how he was able to successfully change the fundamental relationship between the state and the economy while maintaining a just application of law and order. i'm not sure what charismatic would then warrant, probably something to do with happiness and a diplomatic boost with opponents. i'm not sure that that's possible, however. :confused:

    ok, i'm off to try suleiman for the first time. if nothing else, your traits will at least make for a nice change of pace.
     
  18. wjdygert

    wjdygert Chieftain

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    i just finished my first game with these traits. it seemed balanced enough and suleiman's traits made him very fun to play with. a couple of odd things happened though.

    first, after two of my opponents became permanently allied they eventually became a vassal to another permanent alliance. i'd never seen that before. more bizarrely, that same vassal won the game with a cultural victory. i was ten turns from a space race victory so i was a little irritated. :lol: one of the civs was phi/spi and the other was fin/pro, none of which should help for a cultural victory. they only had two religions so the cheap religious buildings couldn't have done much for them. i suppose they might have spammed great artists with phi. :confused: they were also something like 1400 points behind me. i was playing on prince, btw.

    i'll be playing again with these traits because overall i did enjoy the game. i just hope this cultural loss was an anomaly.

    oh, and i'd also suggest giving the spiritual trait cheap missionaries. it seems a bit weak as is.
     
  19. LordBuildaholic

    LordBuildaholic Warlord

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    When I first passed your original post, I rolled my eyes, and thought it was sure to be whiny nitpicking. But whoa was I wrong. Your recommendations make complete and total sense. In fact, they show how wayward the original personality traits actually are!

    Good work!
     

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