Criticise these alternate traits

[Seven05]

Glad to hear you've settled on some final choices, but IMO Imperialistic and Spiritual are noticeably weaker than the rest, and Organized is now awesome. I like the idea of including No Anarchy for Org, but combined with a huge reduction in civic upkeep, perhaps too strong. I would be tempted to reduce the percentage. Aggressive seems to have all the good points for warmongering, perhaps reduce the GG point percentage?

The problem with the aggressive trait is that none of their bonuses provide any benefit to the empire unless you are actively at war. You only get XP and great generals from winning battles and barracks don't improve the city at all unless running nationalism. On 'day one' of a war they'll be equal with any other army, hopefully the faster barracks give them a slight edge in this case but it's debatable With the reduce req. for GG's you get a few extra per game if you're frequently at war, maybe 5 on an average game as a warmonger. It's much less effective than the Philisophical GP bonus but it has the same overall effect, the first few are a lot quicker than they would be for anybody else but you experience diminishing returns eventually putting you on par with everybody else. So the net effect is a few extra GG's over the course of the game.

Spiritual is deceiving. Being able to build temples, monasteries and cathedrals for half cost is a pretty big bonus. It means you can build your cathedrals in cities that don't have high production without being forced to whip/buy them. Early temples and monastaries can be built in every city very quickly giving them a boost to culture, hapiness and research quicker than anybody else can get the same.

Creative is the same way, +10% sounds weak but even relatively early in the game it adds up to more the +2 culture per city on average. The difference is that it needs base culture to work so creative civs no longer effectively skip monuments, helpful for creative/charismatic and creative/imperialistic combinations. Theaters are mediocre buildings but unlike barracks they provide a constant bonus (and a specialist slot), unlike religious buildings they require no religion and don't become obsolete and they come early enough to be in widespread use. Not to mention there are several of unique building replacements for the theater.

For organized the civic upkeep modifier works pretty good on average. It's underpowerd on small maps where civic upkeep is lower anyway. On any map, civic upkeep is rarely a significant factor in your economy being a mere fraction of other upkeep costs. It will, in almost every case, work out to be a smaller benefit than Financial's +10% gold per city. Faster production of courthouses is actually a lot more powerful than -50% civic upkeep.

Imperialistic was too good when I had it with double production bonuses to more buildings. The effect on national wonders is HUGE, epsecially later in the game long after monuments have become obsolete. Since I don't have industrious civs spitting out world wonders like mad Imperialistic civs have the sole wonder bonus in the game making it very powerful. Of course, it's a bonus that applies to wonders you will allways get to build too so even if you have sub-par production and lack production boosting resource you will still benefit from this.

 

[Antilogic]

So there you have the 'reduction' method. Some of them look weak alone, but once you look at the combinations they work out very well in the game. So far anyway

I have to say, I respect your style. However, as posted by Munch, you gave two "main" trait features to Organized (Spi no anarchy and Org -50% civics), and you also gave two main features to Aggressive (Charismatic XP reduction and Imperialistic GG emergence). I'm making a bet that Hammurabi is a beast in your mod.


@Munch:
Do you think Protective has too much? With the new "reduced" traits elsewhere, +2 happiness, free promotions, double production buildings, and domestic great general points might be pushing it.

I'm still going to disagree with your Aggressive trait, but now only play-testing can prove either of us right on the issue of Mounted units and free promotions. I'm going to be very busy this next week, but I'll give it a try after that.

You could always remove the double production on jails and turn the great general emergence back up to 100% for your Imperialistic, if you wanted to keep a round double there instead of a 75%.

Personally, I'm not a fan of nerfing Organized...I would have probably left two double production buildings. I also took out the lighthouse production bonus myself.

 

[King of Town]

Munch

I almost laughed when I saw you were giving combat 1 to seige units. I don't think I have ever done that promotion in a game. It does open up cover promotions, which are usually better than city raider when attacking the AI. I'll be waiting to hear how the mounted thing plays out. I mean playing as justinian your cata's are going to be awesome. He will take less for the promotions, so those babies are going to dominate!

I also don't like giving a beaker to philo. With Liz you're gonna still get a commerce bnus translating into more beakers, a free one from philo, and great scientists faster. As I said before giving her an additional 25% gold on top of that means she will never be out teched, and could also expand very quickly.

Also I know I would value industrious even less, but I actually like that. I apreciate that this trait could be a balancer for a lot of too strong civs.

 

[Seven05]

I have to say, I respect your style. However, as posted by Munch, you gave two "main" trait features to Organized (Spi no anarchy and Org -50% civics), and you also gave two main features to Aggressive (Charismatic XP reduction and Imperialistic GG emergence). I'm making a bet that Hammurabi is a beast in your mod.

I'm sure a lot of it boils down to play style as well. For me, no anarchy isn't a huge benefit because I only took advantage of it under very specific circumstances which didn't happen in every game, not to mention anybody can get the same benefit while in a golden age. Civic upkeep, unlike cheap courthouses doesn't have a substantial impact on colonies. The touch of irony with the combination in my version of organized is that the bonuses almost work against each other, having reduced civic upkeep makes it feasible to run high upkeep civics for extended periods or time, but if you do that you're not taking advantage of the no anarchy bonus. I have been pondering changing it from no anarchy to a maximum anarchy length of one turn but I'll probably hold off on that until I release my mod for public testing.

One thing I tried put a lot of weight into was how well the AI would take advantage of the traits, not just what could the player do with it. Under the original triats the advantage of Spiritual's no anarchy was only used by the AI purely by chance when they decided to change civics, with no other advanatge for the trait they might as well have no trait at all.

Edit: Hammurabi hasn't been much of an opponent in testing but Stalin can be downright scary late in the game, until he goes bankrupt anyway.

 

[Ikael]

Awesome, I am liking each time more how your mod is looking, Munch. However, I have some things which I think they might be critisiced:

Agg
- Free Promo (Combat I): Melee, Gunpowder, Mounted, Helicopter, Siege units

Outside of including siege units in the bonus, I don´s see that trait THAT much overpowered, specially if we consider the fact that double speed barracks has gone for good.

Cha
- No Anarchy
- Double Speed: Colosseum, National Wonders

I still don´t know what does no anarchy has to do with charismatic leaders, but I understand that the war weariness reduction is a pretty hard (or impossible) thing to mod. Generally talking, a nice, balanced trait although not as historically accurate as I would like.

Cre
- +2 per City
- +35% World Wonder production

Ok, congratulations because you nailed it! I think that the reduction of the wonder bonus is a simple, elegant way to solve the problem of that trait.

Exp
- Double Speed: Settlers, Granary
- +2 per City

Nothing serious to complain here, I always thought that expansive civs should recieve the double settler bonus. Not so sure about granary since it makes the trait less unique. +3 instead of double production granaries, perhaps?

Fin
- +25% Trade Route Yield
- +25% per city

Thumbs up! I love how this trait is not more mid - late game oriented and cash focused! Still, will need testing in order to see if the +25% gold is not too overpowered. Another possible bonus suggestion if you decide to modify it again: -50% corporation manteinance.

Imp
- Double Speed: Jail
- -25% Experience needed for Promos
- +75% Great General points

I still think that this bonus is a bit tad underpowered. I mean, in order to make it shine you not only need a war, but a long war, and the double speed jail makes it less unique. I order to solve it I propose the following: remove the double jail production, add a -30% colony manteinance. That way, even empires with not so long wars can really squeeze some nice advantages in peace time, build nice colonies overseas just as the Portugese or British did, and create sinergies with organized (gotta love when two traits compliments each other).

Ind
- Double Speed: Forge, Factory, Levee, Worker, Work Boat

I like your approach of being the "infrastructure trait", even if I rather raw production myself. However, it is a quite underpowered trait compared with the another ones. What about adding another buildings to the double speed such as industrial park or the aqueduct?

Org
- -50% Civic Upkeep
- Double Speed: Courthouse

Nothing to complain here!

Phi
- +100%
- +1 per City

I think that the +1 bonus is a nice one myself, and it adds uniqueness to the trait by removing the double speed buildings. If it ends up being overpowered, what about +1 per scientist specialist instead?

Pro
- Double Speed: Castle, Bomb Shelter
- +1 for: Walls, Bunker
- Free Promo (City Garrison I): Archer, Gunpowder units
- +50% Domestic Great General points

Nice trait here, but then again there´s the double speed bonus... isn´t the free promotion, happiness bonus and great general bonus good enough?

Spi
- +2 per City
- Double Speed: Temples, Monasteries, Cathedrals

Nice, but I really don´t understand the hate for the +10% culture bonus. An alternative to double speed building could be an extra incentive for building them. Perhaps an additional +3 per cathedral might do the trick?

 

[Antilogic]

I'm sure a lot of it boils down to play style as well. For me, no anarchy isn't a huge benefit because I only took advantage of it under very specific circumstances which didn't happen in every game, not to mention anybody can get the same benefit while in a golden age. Civic upkeep, unlike cheap courthouses doesn't have a substantial impact on colonies. The touch of irony with the combination in my version of organized is that the bonuses almost work against each other, having reduced civic upkeep makes it feasible to run high upkeep civics for extended periods or time, but if you do that you're not taking advantage of the no anarchy bonus. I have been pondering changing it from no anarchy to a maximum anarchy length of one turn but I'll probably hold off on that until I release my mod for public testing.

One thing I tried put a lot of weight into was how well the AI would take advantage of the traits, not just what could the player do with it. Under the original triats the advantage of Spiritual's no anarchy was only used by the AI purely by chance when they decided to change civics, with no other advanatge for the trait they might as well have no trait at all.

Edit: Hammurabi hasn't been much of an opponent in testing but Stalin can be downright scary late in the game, until he goes bankrupt anyway.

A clever player can abuse that no anarchy from (vanilla) Spiritual though. All your cities are producing troops for a period of about 10 turns, and so you switch to Vassalage-Theocracy to give them extra XP. Then you go on a building phase with Organized Religion. Then, some douche shows up and insists you adopt their favorite civic, which you do and then just switch back five turns later. Or, you switch state religions every five turns based on who you want to trade with. Spiritual, if you put the work into planning, can be far more powerful than many players would think.

Although the civic upkeep reduction is felt the most by running high upkeep civics, especially if you want to run the holy grail of high cost fun by picking Police State, Vassalage/Bureaucracy, and Organized Religion simultaneously, you still benefit nonetheless so long as you run civics that have upkeep (so, avoid Nationhood and Pacifism). I could still benefit from rapid switching, like I did above, between high and medium cost civics and still save plenty of commerce every round that can be used for science or espionage.


@Ikael: I'd be concerned about increasing science output from specialists. Although it would be a slower on the startup, it would still be quite powerful, maybe too much, later in the game.

I had thought of a new trait, Academic, that would give you +X beakers per population point, along with double production on observatories and research labs. The X was originally intended to be 1, but then I started thinking that would be ridiculous, so I settled on 3/4 as a proposal for playtesting. Unfortunately, I can't mod that myself, so that will have to wait for the future.

I'm working on a revised list myself...I'll post it here after I've had a night's sleep to mull over the last few changes (from feedback here) before posting it.

 

[Philo_Beddoe]

Based on everyone's input and criticism, I've changed my mind considerably about my initial suggestions. I've also reduced the amount of double speed buildings and gone for a more minimalist approach, where most traits have a strong 'main' feature or a collection of smaller bonuses. A more detailed explanation of some of the changes made is here:

Spoiler :

Agg: There's been a lot of debate about the strength of giving Combat I to mounted units. I agree that it is certainly strong, but it must also be situational; not always will a leader find the materials required to build melee or mounted units, and so this compensates for it in a way. Previously, Aggressive leaders with no metals but with elephants were wasting their trait until gunpowder. Also, I am not a fan of warmongering traits in general, I am of the opinion that an economic trait is almost always the better choice, as it allows you to procure a tech lead, and crush more backward civs with your advanced technology, regardless of whether their older units are slightly stronger.
Cha: Given the new ability to change civics instantly during Golden Ages in BTS, "No Anarchy" has become slightly weaker. To reflect this, instead of pairing it with double speed temples as in the Firaxis version, I have included double speed National Wonders (and colosseums), which fit in with the rapid 'adaptability' of having No Anarchy.
Cre: Several people thought having +2 and +50% on World Wonders was taking the best of two traits and combining them. So, I've reduced the World Wonder boost rate and removed other double speed buildings. This works out quite nicely now, and is generally fun.
Fin: Giving a boost to trade route yield seems sensible for Financial leaders, and 25% still gives you a nice amount of commerce for free, although not as much as the Firaxis version of Financial. It is also more of a medium-to-late game bonus now, which I like.
Imp: I thought +100% Great General points may be too much combined with faster promotions, so reduced it to +75%. Kept the double speed jail as it seems appropriate.
Ind: A tough one this. As Seven05 suggested, it is a trait whose potential is varied depending on circumstance. Nevertheless, given the fewer double speed buildings for other traits, this one shines as a welcome boost to infrastructure and production.
Org: In BTS, some have said that playing Archipelago maps practically demands you have the Org trait, because of colony maintainance. So as Org is more appealing in BTS, I have just kept double speed courthouse (a favourite of most people, it seems) and removed the other buildings from an already strong trait.
Phi: Another trait which ha been enhanced in BTS, due to Great People now able to start golden ages earlier, and to found corporations. The +1 is a nice early game boost which helps with expansion.
Pro: This is now actually a fun trait to use, but I removed Security Beureaus as they were slightly overpowering.
Spi: The +10% was unpopular and silly, so removed. Considering that temples etc can be built for each of multiple religions, this still yields a significant boost to culture, happiness and science.

So, here goes. Version 2:

Agg
- Free Promo (Combat I): Melee, Gunpowder, Mounted, Helicopter, Siege units

Cha
- No Anarchy
- Double Speed: Colosseum, National Wonders

Cre
- +2 per City
- +35% World Wonder production

Exp
- Double Speed: Settlers, Granary
- +2 per City

Fin
- +25% Trade Route Yield (in )
- +25%

Imp
- Double Speed: Jail
- -25% Experience needed for Promos
- +75% Great General points

Ind
- Double Speed: Forge, Factory, Levee, Worker, Work Boat

Org
- -50% Civic Upkeep
- Double Speed: Courthouse

Phi
- +100%
- +1 per City

Pro
- Double Speed: Castle, Bomb Shelter
- +1 for: Walls, Bunker
- Free Promo (City Garrison I): Archer, Gunpowder units
- +50% Domestic Great General points

Spi
- +2 per City
- Double Speed: Temples, Monasteries, Cathedrals

I will edit the original post with these new traits, and include a download link. If anyone is still reading this thread, what do you think?

I think you did a good job, some wont like them, but you cant please everyone.

 

[Munch]

The problem with the aggressive trait is that none of their bonuses provide any benefit to the empire unless you are actively at war.

This is why I believe economic traits are always preferable to military ones.

Munch

I almost laughed when I saw you were giving combat 1 to seige units. I don't think I have ever done that promotion in a game. It does open up cover promotions, which are usually better than city raider when attacking the AI.

The only time I have ever (deliberately) given Combat I to siege units is for Machine Guns. It is a funny promotion to give to the others, for sure, but I thought it was better than giving it to Armoured units - even though they may make use of it, not every game will see Armoured units being built. The same could be said of helicopters, but it's there because horses and elephants upgrade (how?) to them.

I also don't like giving a beaker to philo. With Liz you're gonna still get a commerce bnus translating into more beakers, a free one from philo, and great scientists faster. As I said before giving her an additional 25% gold on top of that means she will never be out teched, and could also expand very quickly.

Also I know I would value industrious even less, but I actually like that. I apreciate that this trait could be a balancer for a lot of too strong civs.

You think +100% points is enough for Phi? I don't know what else other than double speed or happiness producing buildings could be used to enhance the trait, if it needs anything more than +100% points. Unfortunately, when you combine two economic traits you are bound to get a powerful economy/science leader.

As for Ind, I started a game as De Gaulle yesterday, getting over my stigma of playing as the French, and the double speed Workers and Work Boats were particularly useful for getting my capital up to speed super-fast. I haven't got to the later stages, but Factories and Levees will be a welcome boost.

... but Stalin can be downright scary late in the game, until he goes bankrupt anyway.

I love how Civ imitates life.

Outside of including siege units in the bonus, I don´s see that trait THAT much overpowered, specially if we consider the fact that double speed barracks has gone for good.

As Antilogic has been arguing, it's exploitable by a human player (similarly to No Anarchy) in the sense that it opens up high-tier promotions for horses that can make them fearsome; however of course not every game will have an Aggressive leader who has horses.

(Cha)
I still don´t know what does no anarchy has to do with charismatic leaders, but I understand that the war weariness reduction is a pretty hard (or impossible) thing to mod. Generally talking, a nice, balanced trait although not as historically accurate as I would like.

(Imp)
I still think that this bonus is a bit tad underpowered. I mean, in order to make it shine you not only need a war, but a long war, and the double speed jail makes it less unique. I order to solve it I propose the following: remove the double jail production, add a -30% colony manteinance. That way, even empires with not so long wars can really squeeze some nice advantages in peace time, build nice colonies overseas just as the Portugese or British did, and create sinergies with organized (gotta love when two traits compliments each other).

I think Charismatic and No Anarchy go together quite well; some people have mentioned that charismatic leaders are typically war-time leaders historically, so why not allow changing to and from war-based civics without the population revolting about it? A charismatic leader may be able to convince their populace about the need for the draft in the face of aggression, etc.

Yes, you need a long war to get the most from Imp, and that's where the fast jails really shine. Too many times have I been spending valuable war-time to complete jails when the war drags on a bit too long. Colony maintainance might be nice, but not every map type will have overseas settlements. Also, I don't think it's possible!

@Munch:
Do you think Protective has too much? With the new "reduced" traits elsewhere, +2 happiness, free promotions, double production buildings, and domestic great general points might be pushing it.

I'm still going to disagree with your Aggressive trait, but now only play-testing can prove either of us right on the issue of Mounted units and free promotions. I'm going to be very busy this next week, but I'll give it a try after that.

You could always remove the double production on jails and turn the great general emergence back up to 100% for your Imperialistic, if you wanted to keep a round double there instead of a 75%.

Personally, I'm not a fan of nerfing Organized...I would have probably left two double production buildings. I also took out the lighthouse production bonus myself.

Hmm, Protective. I don't think the free City Garrison I is much to write home about, as any carefully orchestrated siege will either bring overwhelming numbers or cause suitable collateral to make the promotions practically irrelevant. As for domestic GG, i haven't found a huge amount of use for this. Most of my fighting takes place in other civs' territory, but when an unexpected declaration does happen, you'll be glad to have it. The +2 is really only +1 for most of the game anyway, and double speed Bomb Shelters rarely get utilised. I think this trait is strong, but very situational. Removing the happiness on Walls would castrate this trait, as that's practically the only benefit that doesn't require you to be defending yourself.

Let me know what Aggressive plays like, as the opinions are conflicting. I've already said what I think about military traits in general! As for Imp, I quite like fast jails as a useful benefit and accurate reflection of Imp. If it is underpowered though, GG points could be increased back to +100%. A question for play-testing methinks.

What were the fast buildings for Org originally? Courthouse, Factory and Lighthose? Factory has gone the way of Ind, and Lighthouse just seems a bit odd. I think the economic benefit of Org at the minute is good enough, but perhaps an additional - but less useful - double speed building might help. As I've repeatedly said, I think economic traits are the most desirable ones in almost every circumstance, so I don't think they should be that powerful - just look at the majority of opinions about Firaxis' Financial trait.

 

[Ikael]

Originally Posted by Munch
I think Charismatic and No Anarchy go together quite well; some people have mentioned that charismatic leaders are typically war-time leaders historically, so why not allow changing to and from war-based civics without the population revolting about it? A charismatic leader may be able to convince their populace about the need for the draft in the face of aggression, etc.

Hmmm, quite an interesting interpretation of the trait. I think that Charismatic leaders are more of a "patriotic" leaders then, but yes, now that you explained it, it does sound coherent.

Originally Posted by Much
Yes, you need a long war to get the most from Imp, and that's where the fast jails really shine. Too many times have I been spending valuable war-time to complete jails when the war drags on a bit too long. Colony maintainance might be nice, but not every map type will have overseas settlements. Also, I don't think it's possible!

Ah, the evilness of the XLM (I really liked better the in built editor of civ III than this... not to mention that I could mod without knowing too much programming *sigh*).
However, I dunno, I am still not too found of the jail bonus. Pretty late game-ish to make too much of an effect... I am still thinking that a spyionage bonus or a productin / commerce bonus in the capital would be more accurate and work better, IMHO.

Originally Posted by Antilogic :
@Ikael: I'd be concerned about increasing science output from specialists. Although it would be a slower on the startup, it would still be quite powerful, maybe too much, later in the game.

Well, I said science specialists, not every specialist.

Originally Posted by Antilogic :
I had thought of a new trait, Academic, that would give you +X beakers per population point, along with double production on observatories and research labs. The X was originally intended to be 1, but then I started thinking that would be ridiculous, so I settled on 3/4 as a proposal for playtesting. Unfortunately, I can't mod that myself, so that will have to wait for the future.

Interesting bonus, although I think tha the breaker bonus should be reduced to 1/2 instead. A city with 20 popullation recieving a + 15 raw bonus? Scary. I think that it can really break the flow of the tech tree. However, I like the general idea of the trait (and I always welcome the inclussion of new traits).

 

[Antilogic]

Well, I said science specialists, not every specialist.


Interesting bonus, although I think tha the breaker bonus should be reduced to 1/2 instead. A city with 20 popullation recieving a + 15 raw bonus? Scary. I think that it can really break the flow of the tech tree. However, I like the general idea of the trait (and I always welcome the inclussion of new traits).

Yes, but if I run 2 science specialists in most of my cities, which isn't that difficult, I get +2 beakers. If I have a couple cities running 6 or so, then I get a much bigger bonus. I'm always wary of giving specialists bonuses unless its something like the engineer or spy, where you can literally only run 1 for most of the game.

I agree that science boost is untested. The great thing about it is the ease of balancing...just adjust that ratio. Later in the game, I figured it wouldn't be that big of a factor, but early on when you might have a size 3-4 city running but only a single specialist or cottage going...that's when it will make a huge difference.

Hmm, Protective. I don't think the free City Garrison I is much to write home about, as any carefully orchestrated siege will either bring overwhelming numbers or cause suitable collateral to make the promotions practically irrelevant. As for domestic GG, i haven't found a huge amount of use for this. Most of my fighting takes place in other civs' territory, but when an unexpected declaration does happen, you'll be glad to have it. The +2 is really only +1 for most of the game anyway, and double speed Bomb Shelters rarely get utilised. I think this trait is strong, but very situational. Removing the happiness on Walls would castrate this trait, as that's practically the only benefit that doesn't require you to be defending yourself.

Let me know what Aggressive plays like, as the opinions are conflicting. I've already said what I think about military traits in general! As for Imp, I quite like fast jails as a useful benefit and accurate reflection of Imp. If it is underpowered though, GG points could be increased back to +100%. A question for play-testing methinks.

What were the fast buildings for Org originally? Courthouse, Factory and Lighthose? Factory has gone the way of Ind, and Lighthouse just seems a bit odd. I think the economic benefit of Org at the minute is good enough, but perhaps an additional - but less useful - double speed building might help. As I've repeatedly said, I think economic traits are the most desirable ones in almost every circumstance, so I don't think they should be that powerful - just look at the majority of opinions about Firaxis' Financial trait.

Honestly, that free City Garrison promotion tends to be underrated. Although enough siege equipment can overcome it, you can cause a few extra casualties amongst the enemy siege core with the same number of troops. It's those first few trebuchets that hit against your (improved) longbows that are not going to survive...it can really slow down an advance if you lose all your siege equipment. Although, I'll agree with you, it's not enough for a trait. My gripe is that I see a bunch of traits with only 1 or 2 lines of bonuses, and then I see Protective with 4 lines of bonuses. Maybe if we take out the +50% domestic modifier, if it doesn't get that much use anyway?

I don't know, I just think Protective seems a little rough around the edges.


I prefer a mix of war and economic traits. Having a war trait early on makes rushing so much easier/possible, and you can keep the pressure on early. Sometimes, having an economy doesn't matter if somebody else takes it from you. The economic trait is for the recovery.

Of course, I play with Aggressive AI, usually, and can be quite aggressive myself.


You're right on the initial double production buildings for Org...I took out lighthouses and replaced them with Harbors because it seemed to make more sense (connecting cities with trade routes seems organized to me, and it still has a "water benefit" if you are into that sort of thing). I changed Expansive to granaries and aqueducts so there would not be overlap. Although, I'm thinking of capping the double production buildings for my mod at 2 per trait, maximum, and preferably using less.

 

[Munch]

Honestly, that free City Garrison promotion tends to be underrated. Although enough siege equipment can overcome it, you can cause a few extra casualties amongst the enemy siege core with the same number of troops. It's those first few trebuchets that hit against your (improved) longbows that are not going to survive...it can really slow down an advance if you lose all your siege equipment. Although, I'll agree with you, it's not enough for a trait. My gripe is that I see a bunch of traits with only 1 or 2 lines of bonuses, and then I see Protective with 4 lines of bonuses. Maybe if we take out the +50% domestic modifier, if it doesn't get that much use anyway?

I don't know, I just think Protective seems a little rough around the edges.

I like the domestic Great General points, it has good synergy (yes Ikael, I like synergy too) with the defensive buildings and promotions; all those extra siege units you stand to kill with your City Garrison III longbows really boost your GG production. As it is, yes the trait has 4 lines of benefits, but they are all quite small. Another point is that they are only really useful on the defensive, and if you are on the defensive then things haven't quite been going totally to plan; this is a good trait for snatching a respectable result (maybe not all-out victory) from the jaws of military defeat. Honestly, give it a go, you might enjoy Protective for once! I had a great game with Mao, someone I would have been loath to pick originally given his Firaxis traits (not so much Exp, but anyone with Firaxis Pro gets given second thoughts).

I took out lighthouses and replaced them with Harbors because it seemed to make more sense (connecting cities with trade routes seems organized to me, and it still has a "water benefit" if you are into that sort of thing).

Yes, that "water benefit" really "floats my boat". Haha, ha, oh dear.

Although, I'm thinking of capping the double production buildings for my mod at 2 per trait, maximum, and preferably using less.

Why impose an arbitrary limit like this upon yourself? If I had done the same thing, I wouldn't have had anything to bolster my Ind trait, and at the minute I think it's turned out quite good as it is. Still playtesting it, though.

 

[Seven05]

Although, I'm thinking of capping the double production buildings for my mod at 2 per trait, maximum, and preferably using less.

Double speed buildings can be very potent and the nice thing about them is that you can control exactly when that trait will be at it's best. But, an arbitrary limit doesn't really fit because not all buildings are equal so having two crappy buildings isn't as good as two good buildings, and then there are the UB's to worry about. Both my Industrious and Spiritual traits have double speed buildings as their primary bonus and they work very well as the effect is obvious in both cases whether controlled by the player or the AI. However they're boring in the sense that you don't really have to put any thought into using them and once built they're no better than those built by anybody else.

I had actually considering using ONLY increased building and unit production for traits but it felt rather bland once I had a few combos ready for testing.

It's also very hard to look at traits completely independant of all other traits since they're always paired with another. As long as you can make each of them unique you'll maintain a good feel when they're combined. So if you have two traits that are very similar, let's say Aggressive and Protective, then any civ with either Aggressive or Protective as one of their traits will perform very similar to a civ with the other.

As for the default protective trait, Munch... well Toku (Agg/Pro) had some of the most brutal gunpowder units in the game. Combat 1, Drill 1 and CG 1 at 0 XP Any protective leader had the benefit of creating gunpowder units that were not only good at attacking but could then hold what they took. Using generic promotions like Drill, Combat & Pinch didn't make them any worse at defending and they became good dual-purpose units. A stack of rifleman like that could march right through several enemies and not raze a single city... attack, capture, leave two behind, move on to the next.

 

[kristopherb]

Based on everyone's input and criticism, I've changed my mind considerably about my initial suggestions. I've also reduced the amount of double speed buildings and gone for a more minimalist approach, where most traits have a strong 'main' feature or a collection of smaller bonuses. A more detailed explanation of some of the changes made is here:

Spoiler :

Agg: There's been a lot of debate about the strength of giving Combat I to mounted units. I agree that it is certainly strong, but it must also be situational; not always will a leader find the materials required to build melee or mounted units, and so this compensates for it in a way. Previously, Aggressive leaders with no metals but with elephants were wasting their trait until gunpowder. Also, I am not a fan of warmongering traits in general, I am of the opinion that an economic trait is almost always the better choice, as it allows you to procure a tech lead, and crush more backward civs with your advanced technology, regardless of whether their older units are slightly stronger.
Cha: Given the new ability to change civics instantly during Golden Ages in BTS, "No Anarchy" has become slightly weaker. To reflect this, instead of pairing it with double speed temples as in the Firaxis version, I have included double speed National Wonders (and colosseums), which fit in with the rapid 'adaptability' of having No Anarchy.
Cre: Several people thought having +2 and +50% on World Wonders was taking the best of two traits and combining them. So, I've reduced the World Wonder boost rate and removed other double speed buildings. This works out quite nicely now, and is generally fun.
Fin: Giving a boost to trade route yield seems sensible for Financial leaders, and 25% still gives you a nice amount of commerce for free, although not as much as the Firaxis version of Financial. It is also more of a medium-to-late game bonus now, which I like.
Imp: I thought +100% Great General points may be too much combined with faster promotions, so reduced it to +75%. Kept the double speed jail as it seems appropriate.
Ind: A tough one this. As Seven05 suggested, it is a trait whose potential is varied depending on circumstance. Nevertheless, given the fewer double speed buildings for other traits, this one shines as a welcome boost to infrastructure and production.
Org: In BTS, some have said that playing Archipelago maps practically demands you have the Org trait, because of colony maintainance. So as Org is more appealing in BTS, I have just kept double speed courthouse (a favourite of most people, it seems) and removed the other buildings from an already strong trait.
Phi: Another trait which ha been enhanced in BTS, due to Great People now able to start golden ages earlier, and to found corporations. The +1 is a nice early game boost which helps with expansion.
Pro: This is now actually a fun trait to use, but I removed Security Beureaus as they were slightly overpowering.
Spi: The +10% was unpopular and silly, so removed. Considering that temples etc can be built for each of multiple religions, this still yields a significant boost to culture, happiness and science.

So, here goes. Version 2:

Agg
- Free Promo (Combat I): Melee, Gunpowder, Mounted, Helicopter, Siege units

Cha
- No Anarchy
- Double Speed: Colosseum, National Wonders

Cre
- +2 per City
- +35% World Wonder production

Exp
- Double Speed: Settlers, Granary
- +2 per City

Fin
- +25% Trade Route Yield (in )
- +25%

Imp
- Double Speed: Jail
- -25% Experience needed for Promos
- +75% Great General points

Ind
- Double Speed: Forge, Factory, Levee, Worker, Work Boat

Org
- -50% Civic Upkeep
- Double Speed: Courthouse

Phi
- +100%
- +1 per City

Pro
- Double Speed: Castle, Bomb Shelter
- +1 for: Walls, Bunker
- Free Promo (City Garrison I): Archer, Gunpowder units
- +50% Domestic Great General points

Spi
- +2 per City
- Double Speed: Temples, Monasteries, Cathedrals

I will edit the original post with these new traits, and include a download link. If anyone is still reading this thread, what do you think?

Love it, it makes everything so balanced. The only surgestoion is to free drill to archer's and gunpowder for protective.

 

[Antilogic]

I like the domestic Great General points, it has good synergy (yes Ikael, I like synergy too) with the defensive buildings and promotions; all those extra siege units you stand to kill with your City Garrison III longbows really boost your GG production. As it is, yes the trait has 4 lines of benefits, but they are all quite small. Another point is that they are only really useful on the defensive, and if you are on the defensive then things haven't quite been going totally to plan; this is a good trait for snatching a respectable result (maybe not all-out victory) from the jaws of military defeat. Honestly, give it a go, you might enjoy Protective for once! I had a great game with Mao, someone I would have been loath to pick originally given his Firaxis traits (not so much Exp, but anyone with Firaxis Pro gets given second thoughts).



Yes, that "water benefit" really "floats my boat". Haha, ha, oh dear.



Why impose an arbitrary limit like this upon yourself? If I had done the same thing, I wouldn't have had anything to bolster my Ind trait, and at the minute I think it's turned out quite good as it is. Still playtesting it, though.

Would you say your plan "came together"? Okay, bad A-Team reference is over. Now back to business.

I actually don't mind playing Firaxis Protective. Having all those boosted archers really helps, especially if you make a quick dash for crossbows. And then, you can more easily hold what you take. Plus, Drill promotions unlock the +25% vs. X promotions now, like Shock, Pinch, and Cover, so having Protective is about as good as Aggressive--you just get first strikes and city defense instead of +10% combat, and on different units. Sometimes. I'll play just about any Firaxis trait combo, and just understand that certain combos may be more challenging than others. That is the element my trait system aims to eliminate...so you kind of know already what you want to do, it's just not any more difficult or easy based on your traits. You just play how you want to, and know that you won't be penalized for it.

I'm considering doing some more with Organized if I can, but I think its a well-designed trait as is. Honestly, I might not change it at all besides the double-production buildings.

Although the double production building limit may seem arbitrary, I do that because I'm using them as a secondary "balancing" bonus instead of the primary bonus. Your Industrious is quite different from what I'm doing (leaving the main Firaxian bonuses as-is), so I wouldn't present it as an axiom. Also, some of my traits only have one or no double production buildings. So, two poor double production buildings may equal one good one, or none if the primary benefit of the trait is just that awesome. But the key word I posted above was maximum, as in my goal is to have 0-2 double production buildings for each trait.

However, this is just a design criteria I'm using to craft mine, and really more of a "goal" because I still have a trait with 3 double production buildings (Org) that I would rather not change.

 

[Seven05]

Although the double production building limit may seem arbitrary, I do that because I'm using them as a secondary "balancing" bonus instead of the primary bonus. Your Industrious is quite different from what I'm doing (leaving the main Firaxian bonuses as-is), so I wouldn't present it as an axiom. Also, some of my traits only have one or no double production buildings. So, two poor double production buildings may equal one good one, or none if the primary benefit of the trait is just that awesome. But the key word I posted above was maximum, as in my goal is to have 0-2 double production buildings for each trait.

It's interesting to see how close our goals are and then what differences we come up with. When I started messing with traits my goal was to eliminate anything that felt like a 'must have' trait because it was so good in so many circumstances. For me this was Financial mainly, Industrious & Philisophical to a degree. Financial leaders had so many more options because their commerce bonus was good for any strategy that I felt compelled to play leaders with Financial traits. Getting spoiled by double wonder production or double GPP was another hard habit to break. In the end I went with aiming for more flavor between the traits without any that were too desireable under too many situation.

Also, if you're curious, combining modified traits with some basic AI changes in the XML files for flavor values (especially the weights in the leaderhead file) and the flavor values for the changed double production speed buildings will go a long ways towards improving the feel of your AI opponents.

I tried so many different things, and this thread has been an excellent source of ideas, before I finally settled on a setup that felt right for me with the rest of the changes in my mod. Hopefully all of our points & counterpoints can help more people too. And not to discount the random posts with 'impossible' suggestions but the best part has been the exchange between those of us actually working on trait modifications with settings that are entirely possible without any further modding. Although some of the off-the-wall ideas have been pretty cool too, maybe one day I'll motivate myself into making some of them possible. Anyway, just a quick 'touchy-feely' moment to say thanks, now back to talking about raining death and destruction down upon our foes...

 

[kniteowl]

I still don´t know what does no anarchy has to do with charismatic leaders, but I understand that the war weariness reduction is a pretty hard (or impossible) thing to mod. Generally talking, a nice, balanced trait although not as historically accurate as I would like.

Actually someone has already moded in WW to the traits in Warlords with this Mod. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=207938

I Don't know how to play around with with the SDK so I have no idea how to Mod it in to BTS.

 

[Antilogic]

Actually someone has already moded in WW to the traits in Warlords with this Mod. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=207938

I Don't know how to play around with with the SDK so I have no idea how to Mod it in to BTS.

I don't believe it would be that difficult to add it to BtS, actually. BtS just looks at Warlords for its trait information, and doesn't have any of its own. I have to think that would make it easier to mod.


@Seven05:
Reworking some of the AI build priorities is another thing on my to-do list...I'm working on these traits and some basic UU/UB changes for phase 1 of the beta, then balance adjustments to these as well as the new events for phase 2, and refitting some AIs and putting on the final touches as phase 3. There currently is an "imaginary" stage 4 consisting of a new Civics category I came up with, but right now that will be excluded because I don't have the modding capacity to do that. Also, it doesn't strike me as "Minimalist", so it might be permanently excluded. We'll see.

 

[Seven05]

@Seven05:
Reworking some of the AI build priorities is another thing on my to-do list...I'm working on these traits and some basic UU/UB changes for phase 1 of the beta, then balance adjustments to these as well as the new events for phase 2, and refitting some AIs and putting on the final touches as phase 3. There currently is an "imaginary" stage 4 consisting of a new Civics category I came up with, but right now that will be excluded because I don't have the modding capacity to do that. Also, it doesn't strike me as "Minimalist", so it might be permanently excluded. We'll see.

Well, I finally got around to uploading mine if you're bored and want to see some effects of my stange thought process

I do have quite a bit of SDK code in for AI tweaks as well. I've worked in hard limits for specific units based on the world size, number of players, number of cities, etc. This helps prevent the AI from doing stuff like building 50 Galleys when it's not at war or planning to go to war or even worse, can't reach any other civ with a Galley. I've also adjusted the diplomacy code so they don't ask you to declare war on your best friend unless you have better relations with them. And they test their same personal rules for accepting a trade embargo request before they ask you to do it. One of the easiest change is to get rid of a lot of their random chances to build stuff in the leader head infos, I zeroed out the rands for wonder production and unit production (except on a couple of psycho warmongers) so they actually build stuff based almost entirely on need and flavor.

Now just so this doesn't completely hijack the thread ...

The effect this has on the AI is pretty significant. Using the default traits it suddenly made the wonder production bonus for Industrious seem much more potent than before. Financial civs were skyrocketting ahead of everybody else in tech and the poor Aggressive, Charismatic and Imperialist leaders were the whipping boys. And this is at Noble. One thing the Civ 4 AI has taught me is that if nothing else it will certainly show you when something is out of balance by abusing it relentlessly if you just unleash it.

 

[Ikael]

A thought: Synergies between new traits and possible new traits for the leaders:

Charismatic and spiritual is a really good trait for having damn stable civilizations: no anarchy + hapiness is a great combination for having a revolt free empire. I think that Ghandi is a prime candidate for such a combo not only because he was spiritual and charismatic (literally talking) but also because the India has been one of the most stable societies ever, with little or no revolutions.

Spiritual and protective can create some of the most happy civs ever, I like it greatly since generally talking, remote, isolationist and spiritual like civs like the Tibetans have been experts able mantainning their citizens happy. A fitting combination for the reclusive Kmer?

Agressive and protective: The mother of all the warmongers As it used to be in the original game. Tokugawa is boudn to kick some serious ass with your traits (as it should be), no matter how is the war: offensive, defensive, short or long, it is surely going to have an advantage on it. I like that you beefed up protective, since I really think that the Japanese had some serious disvantages.

Expansive and industrious: Cheap settlers, workers and workboats? Hell yeah. This combo can be great in order to create a large, well developed empire in ancient times. Persia would be one of my prime candidates for having such a combination of traits.

Expansive and organized: Cheap settlers + low manteinance costs = win. Great for making huge land empires, I think that Quin Shin and the huge China would be quite fitting for recieving such traits.

Creative and industrious: The combination of cheap wonders along with cheap workers and the such will probably lead to a ancient empire full of wonders.

Creative and philosopical: The forbidden combo... now, thanks to the downgrade of the wonder production bonus, such a combination is not as game breaking as it used to be, but is still very powerful. I think that if this trait combo is putted to a leader with a crappy UB / UU, it can be used in game without being overpowered. Hamurabbi, perhaps?

How to improve the sinergies even more:

Right now, I think that you nailed all the traits but with 2 exceptions: industrious and imperialistic. My disagreement with you on them comes from them being underpowered when compared to another traits and that they can be changed in order to make them even more sinergistic:

Imp
- +1 +2 per trade route in capital
- -25% Experience needed for Promos
- +75% Great General points

An early advantage and a way to representate the relationship between metropolis and colonies, this bonus is a nice early one which won´t become overpowered with the time.

Sinergies with:
industrious & expansionistic - the early +1 hammer and gold bonus united to the ease of building settlers / workers will make you able to build a great capital in the Ancient times such as Rome did.
Also, it will serve as an incentive for adopting free market (+1 traderoute), and another underused buildings such as the artemis temple and the castles.

Ind
- Double Speed: Forge, Factory, Levee, Worker, Work Boat
- +1 per engineer / settled great engineer

I already mentioned it, but I do think that his grait needs a boost. I mean, compared with the free promotions + happiness bonus of protective or the cultural base + wonder fast production of creative, I think that productive is sorely lacking: while the rest bonuses have got a significant boost (extra happiness, promotions, etc), this one have had its main strenght removed (extra wonder production) while just adding double buildings to the ones that it already possessed. And even if double speed workers are great when starting the game, double speed workboats are not always useful and leeves are quite late game ish. The bonus to engineers would give it a great sinergy not only with philosophical civs, but also with buildings such as the Roman Forum. Also, the Germans would be able to become THE great engineer civ, as it should be.

 

[Antilogic]

Well, I finally got around to uploading mine if you're bored and want to see some effects of my stange thought process

I do have quite a bit of SDK code in for AI tweaks as well. I've worked in hard limits for specific units based on the world size, number of players, number of cities, etc. This helps prevent the AI from doing stuff like building 50 Galleys when it's not at war or planning to go to war or even worse, can't reach any other civ with a Galley. I've also adjusted the diplomacy code so they don't ask you to declare war on your best friend unless you have better relations with them. And they test their same personal rules for accepting a trade embargo request before they ask you to do it. One of the easiest change is to get rid of a lot of their random chances to build stuff in the leader head infos, I zeroed out the rands for wonder production and unit production (except on a couple of psycho warmongers) so they actually build stuff based almost entirely on need and flavor.

Now just so this doesn't completely hijack the thread ...

The effect this has on the AI is pretty significant. Using the default traits it suddenly made the wonder production bonus for Industrious seem much more potent than before. Financial civs were skyrocketting ahead of everybody else in tech and the poor Aggressive, Charismatic and Imperialist leaders were the whipping boys. And this is at Noble. One thing the Civ 4 AI has taught me is that if nothing else it will certainly show you when something is out of balance by abusing it relentlessly if you just unleash it.

Wow...this thread has been inactive for nearly a week. Okay, I'll try and bring some life back.

I wonder, did you alter the base Civ4 SDK or Bhruic's SDK? I'm afraid I have grown too used to Bhruic's fixes that I would be loathe to go to something that didn't have those minor fixes.

It's odd that warmongers fell so far behind, in that case...is it because warmongers must "randomly" produce commerce buildings, and if you zero out that random chance, they never do? Perhaps, as an adjustment, you should try giving everybody at least one or two flavor points in money or science, just to make sure they value the commerce boosting buildings.