Criticise these alternate traits

Yes, I use the unofficial patch as a base for my DLL, be crazy not too :)

My AI changes started with the removal of their bonuses, I wanted to adjust the difficulty levels so all of the handicaps were on the player, not the AI. This way the game could still be made easier or more difficult but wouldn't have the side effects of boosting AI research rates like space race victories in the 1700's. This included removing the AI's free 10 hammers per city which I don't think most people realize is there and it has a HUGE impact on the game.

Once I did that the AI was really crippled accross the board. Looking at the SDK code I could see that the descision making process was actually very well down but it was being overriden by random probabilities that were forcing the AI to build units and/or wonders regardless of what the AI wanted to build. So really, all of that beautiful code to help the AI build a decent army of an appropriate size was wasted because they were forced to build extra units. They were also forced to build wonders in cities that wouldn't benefit from those wonders and sometimes forced to build wonders that wouldn't help them at all, and that is a lot of wasted hammers. This also created a lot of the problems people see with the AI, for instance the AI would build MASSIVE armies and then do nothing with them except pay for their upkeep, so the original game decreased the upkeep costs for the AI resulting in them potentially building armies that the player could never dream of matching. It wouldn't be bad if the AI was running a decent empire with a lot of income but they'd do this if they had 20 cities burried in the tundra without a single food or commerce resource. Overall it just felt cheap, so I removed their random probabilities at the same time I removed their bonuses.

Now, with the random probabilities out, they were making substantially better descisions. They were capable of building a respectable empire with a decent military force to defend it and with which to attack their enemies. They built enough units to defend themseleves, but not so many as to force them to go to war (another random probability) just because they had an idle army. They would still go to war if they had a reson but this small change in military production all but eliminated the issue of the AI declaring war on what should have been a friend. It solved their financial troubles without giving them cheap bonuses because they no longer build excessive units, and since they weren't forced to build units or wonders by a random probability they would build things they needed, including wonders, based on the city itself and their current situation. So if they felt threatened they would build units, if they thought they had enough units they would build walls, and so on.

So at this point the AI was basically unleashed and no longer bound by artificial limitations, no longer receiving unexplained bonuses and no longer being forced into bad descisions like building the great wall on a one city continent while their opponent was building up a huge invasion force three tiles away on another continent.

And this is where I could clearly see the imbalance with traits. Financial civs always had the tech lead and more money. Since more money means bigger armies they tended to be more aggressive than the aggressive players. industrious civs had all of the wonders with very few exceptions and most of the exceptions would have been built by the human player(s). Philisophical civs did well enough but not anything special by itself, although if you had a couple of them you'd see great people born almost every turn for the first half of the game, especially scientists thanks to their cheap libraries.

Certain traits, and more specifically trait combos were obviously under-utilized by the AI. This was extreme enough that a weak trait combo could start in a substantially better area and still lose out to a civ with a stronger trait combo relatively early in the game. You could almost tell who was going to win as soon as you saw who was in the game. The strongest traits (Fin/Ind/Phi) and the weakest traits (Agg/Cha/Imp) could be used as a scale, two strong traits and they'll win, two weak traits and they'll lose. Regardless of who else was in the game, starting positions, the world map or anything short of human player intervention.

The reason for this was pretty obvious since I had my head burried in the AI code for so long. Financial received a solid bonus to commerce in practically every city so they had more gold, research or culture depending on how they wanted to use that commerce. Philisophical received great people like mad early in the game and then used them to bulb techs, go into golden ages, rush wonders or just improve their cities, the exact type of GP depended a lot on their other trait. Unfortunately, this meant leaders like Alexander (Phi/Agg) or Ragnar (Fin/Agg) were only mediocre because of the insignificant advantage gained by the aggressive trait. They also didn't take full advantage of their strong trait because of their aggressive nature, Ragnar didn't build banks and markets everywhere because he wanted a bigger military, Alexander wan't much better, preferring military units over buildings that would allow more specialists so he could spawn more GPs.

Now, spreading out flavor points has some nasty effects. The AI normally does a very good job of prioritizing what to produce at a city (now anyway, not so much before). In fact, I've learned quite a bit just from watching them with my changes in place as some of them have given me quite a humbling lesson. However, spreading out flavor values makes things artifically more important than they really are, part of the problem the AI was having before. If the flavor values are focused they will prefer specific strategies but not to the exclusion of others. Flavor basically works as a modifier to the value that the AI calculates for a production order so with some focus they get their fix of flavor buildings pretty quickly and then move on based on the calculated values of other buildings. Essentially flavor values help prioritize their production preferences so adding more flavor types has the same net effect as removing others, you'll eventually end up with leaders that all act the same with no... flavor :)

This is also why I mentioned before that double production speed has a huge impact on the game, it can break flavor preferences and make an otherwise useless building appear useful based on it's cost vs. the gain received from it. You could actually change the traits so that every single one of them only had double production speed bonuses and nothing else and the result would be pretty good if you made wise choices.
 
Seems like you really have that AI down.

So, entertain me for a moment. Is there a way to leave the random decisions in, but reduce the number the AI makes? Reduce it down to 50% of the base game's randomness instead of 100%, but not turn it off completely?

I knew about those 10 hammers from another mod, where the designer took them out as well (because he thought they were pointless as well). Is it because the AI doesn't know how to defend early on and needs a headstart on a warrior unit for defense?


I posted awhile ago that I believed, and designed my traits around the idea that, double production buildings were used as equalizers after the "primary" benefit of a trait was developed. They always filled an auxilary role for my design, but that is likely because I'm (obviously) a human player and not the AI.
 
Now that we've officially hijacked the thread... :)

The iBuildUnitProb works as a modifier in most cases this number is added to the weight of building a unit, so lower number result in less skewing of the weight during the descision process. A value of 10 here is pretty significant, for comparison the 'Aggressive AI' game option increases the weight for building a unit by 4 (I think, maybe 7, don't have the code in front of me right now). What you change this to should depend on what type of game you want, if you want a lot of units this value should be higher as the higher it is the more you inflate the value of units, at zero the unit wieght is purely based on the situation and the AI's current state of the empire if you will.

The iWonderConstructRand value is used to force the AI into opportunistic wonder builds. The effect is more pronounced early in the game (less than turn 100) because at that time the AI really doesn't want to build wonders by itself as it is more concerned with initial military units, workers, settlers and buildings that help it expand and build up gold & research. Anyway, this value works a little differently than every other 'Rand' value in the file, this one gets modified by a number of factors and eventually becomes the upper limit for how long the wonder can take to build. It's something screwy like /5 then + 7 then * 35 and then /100, or something close to that. Anyway, a higher value here increases the number of possible wonders for them to randomly chose from. If set to zero they'll only build random wonders if they can do it very quickly otherwise they'll build wonders that they want in cities that don't need anything else more than that wonder.

I know, not a very straight answer :)

The +10 hammers are yet another handicap to make up for the AI's inability to exploit certain strategies like a human can. My guess is that it was designed to counter human players chop-rushing tactics without removing the tactic. It is NOT a restricted to their initial city, the name is a bit misleading, what it does is apply that hammer bonus as 'overflow production' in every city. The final bonus is modified by the cities raw hammer output so in the end it makes sure they don't have any hideously low production cities like the human players do :)
 
wow you really got in there huh? I saw some pretty dumb ai behavior just over the weekend. I was playing a game where I got sneak attacked by my neighbor louis while at war with shaka. Well louis had a bigger army than I figured and reduced my empire to the point it was pointless to go on. So I built a game with just me and him, and filled every square with a city from him in world builder. Gave myself a modern armor and went at it. I just was razing all of his cities just to be bogus. Was pointless but fun. Well after the initial archer louis built some of his cities went at another archer and some of them went after workers. It was like you have exactly zero plots of terrain that are workable, theya re all covered with cities. What re you doing? So that's where I figured they obviously have probablilities for building certain things.

I also gave him a bunch of differnt great people to see what he would do with them. His score didn't go up so I am assuming he didn't lightbulb anything. I know he used the great artists to produce great works because almost all of his cities went up to 60% cultural defense. I don't have any clue though what he did with the others. Is ther any probability in the code for what they will do with great people? I know they do use all of the options, I just didn't know which ones were more likely. That way way when I am putting off liberalisim to get the biggest tech I can I will know if someone will just lightbulb it.

I know it is off topic a bit, but since you were in the code anyway ....:)
 
Well, you broke the rules the AI was designed to work within by packing cities in every single plot :)

The AI won't evaluate plots to see if they're workable, it looks at the number of workers it has, the size of the area it is on and the number of cities is has to determine if it needs workers.

I haven't looked into great people much since they don't look broken (yet) in my mod so I can't really say how they think to use them, especially in a unique situation like you put them in.
 
The +10 hammers are yet another handicap to make up for the AI's inability to exploit certain strategies like a human can. My guess is that it was designed to counter human players chop-rushing tactics without removing the tactic. It is NOT a restricted to their initial city, the name is a bit misleading, what it does is apply that hammer bonus as 'overflow production' in every city. The final bonus is modified by the cities raw hammer output so in the end it makes sure they don't have any hideously low production cities like the human players do :)

That's funny, because I thought the AI was fairly efficient at chopping, except for a few AI personalities that like it green. I know I've seen the AI chop trees or use Slavery before.
 
Well, I have been testing this days the mod so now I have more feedback!

First, I must say that I love your mod to bits. It almost became a different game, yet it keeps itself more balanced than the original. Congratulations! However, after testing every trait I have come to detect some imbalances / minor nitpicks.

The first of all, it is a bout some specific buildings. Some of them had a higher cost... because in the vainilla version, some traits like creative gave them double speed production. For example, the Zulu Ikanda costed more than a regular barrack because it had an added effect AND its building time was halved due to Chaka's agressive trait. Now that has gone... I think that these type of buildings should have the vainilla building cost (Ikanda costing as much as a regular barrack, for example).

Aside from that, there are other leaders that have became overpowered due to the trait changes. Nothing too serious since your traits are usually quite balanced, but there is one case where your mod made one leader unbeatable: Pericles. OMFG. I mean, creative, which is THE best trait in the game, plus philosophical, a good trait, plus phalanx, one of the best UU, plus Odeon, one of the best unique buildings. Holy freaking crap. Replace one of his traits with charismatic, I say. It is a nice, albeit not as outstanding trait for the Greeks as philo or creative, and If there has ever been a paradygm of a charismatic leade, that was Pericles.

And now, let's move onto the different traits.

Spiritual: I freaking love this trait modification, so much that I have grew to like playing with Isabella. I really love its versatile-ness, and how it has became more of a builder kind of trait (the extra happiness takes out the need of invading territory for collecting luxuries).


Creative: One of the best traits of the game, however, the production building bonus reduction to a +35% makes me happy to see how not every wonder gets concentrated into a small club of civs. Now it has become the best trait for culture builers like along with spiritual, as it should be, IMHO. However, be careful with which civ recieves this trait...

Expansive: Not too much changed, but the settler double producion is way more logical and really increases the feeling of, hum, "expansiveness", making you able to not only have large cities, but also lots of them.

Philosophical: Good, but I think that the +1 reserach per city really don's compensate the lack of double production library / university. Perhaps it should be +2 research instead?

Charismatic: Quite an eclectic trait! I love how much versatile is now and how much well it does combine with some of the civs that has it. Carthage's Hannibal is great for halve the cost of Moai statues, for example. I really did felt that I was playing with a "patriotic" leader.

Organized: Duh, nothing to add here, it works perfectly as it used to do in the original.

Protective: The increased happiness really helps you to feel like the lord protector of your civ, and it also gives you an incentive to build otherwise worthless buildings, and it makes the Arab civ very interesting to play (spiritual happiness bonus + protective = yay!).

However, there are some traits which I think they were little or very flawed:

Industrious: You only feel its pressence in the beggining of the game (a great pressence, really) but that really doesn't feel right for the industrious trait. The interval between the discoverie of metal casting (forges) and the industrial revolution is a large one, and the trait is mostly useless during it. Each time more I think that it it needs a raw production bonus of some kind.

Financial: this is a minor nitpick. The gold extra is great, while avoiding making your a supertech god, it is very handy when negotiating, modernizing armies and rushing buildings. It really made the game more balanced. However, the trade route bonus barely has any impact unless you get the custome house, but perhaps it should be taht way. Also, I like how it kinda makes commercial civs to be more peaceful in order to make their trade routes prosper (just as it happened in the real life).

Imperialistic: It feels... odd. I mean, it IS good when having a war, but am I the only one that feels that the trait is mainly... "defensive"? Not as limited as I thought, but how to say it, you don't really feel as an imperialistic civ by playing it... hard to describe.
 
Well, I have been testing this days the mod so now I have more feedback!

Awesome, thanks very much for the extensive review. :)

What to do about Cre/Phi being overpowered? Nerf one of them somehow, or make Pericles Cha/Cre?

How to beef-up Ind? I have noticed that Expansive AIs do quite well due to generally having more cities, so perhaps remove the +2 :health: benefit from Exp and give Ind, say, +1 :health:? This would help you build the :yuck: producing buildings in your cities with less problems, and provide a constant benefit. Does it make any sense, though? I'm wary of a raw increase in hammer yields from either tiles or specialists; this can be either way overpowered or totally useless I fear.

Perhaps Fin could do with more of a trade route bonus and less of a :gold: bonus?

I agree with most of your comments about the individual traits (e.g. Financial leaders having to take care of their trade routes), and I'm glad that the feel of most of them is just like I was aiming for :cool: . However, I disagree about Imperialistic feeling defensive. Maybe you've playtested more than me, but I'm going for a Conquest Victory with Justinian now and this Imp trait really works well for that; most of my units are highly promoted thanks to reduced experience requirements, the ones which are built in my 3 (or 4) Military advisor + Barracks (+ Stable/Drydock) + Military Academy city are incredible, and the fast jails really came in handy when assimilating a nearby small continent started to anger my citizens. ALso, the espionage benefit of jails kicked in sooner, which was nice. It feels to me like the army is the life force of my Imperial civilisation, and I'm always looking for the next target. It works defensively too, of course.
 
I am thinking of downloading these traits. Has anyone else downloaded them? If you have can you provide a short review?
 
I am thinking of downloading these traits. Has anyone else downloaded them? If you have can you provide a short review?

Ikael pretty much summed it up two posts above you. Looks like maybe more playtesting than even I did. It still needs work, but I don't think there's much demand anymore.

For example, Creative, Expansive and Financial are probably the best traits now. I've altered/nerfed these a bit for myself but haven't uploaded the changes:

Cre
- +2 :culture: per City
- +25% (was +35%) World Wonder production

Exp
- Double Speed: Settlers, Granary
- +1 (was +2) :health: per City

Fin
- +35% (was +25%) Trade Route Yield (in :commerce:)
- +15% (was +25%) :gold:
 
Ikael pretty much summed it up two posts above you. Looks like maybe more playtesting than even I did. It still needs work, but I don't think there's much demand anymore.

For example, Creative, Expansive and Financial are probably the best traits now. I've altered/nerfed these a bit for myself but haven't uploaded the changes:

Cre
- +2 :culture: per City
- +25% (was +35%) World Wonder production

Exp
- Double Speed: Settlers, Granary
- +1 (was +2) :health: per City

Fin
- +35% (was +25%) Trade Route Yield (in :commerce:)
- +15% (was +25%) :gold:


Really? It seemed like imperalistic would be overpowered.

Do you think the game is more balanced with your traits vs regular BTS?
 
Really? It seemed like imperalistic would be overpowered.

Imperialistic is strong, as is Aggressive (and probably Protective too), but I think that designing military traits is a particularly difficult balancing act - I mean in contrast to economic traits. Over time, a civ with an economic trait will be able to research faster or can afford to expand further than a civ with a militaristic trait. So basically I believe military traits should seem more powerful to try and overcome the fact that the economic civ will simply be able to afford more units or research more powerful ones.

As for it being overpowered, well, that's something to playtest.

Do you think the game is more balanced with your traits vs regular BTS?

I'd like to think that in these traits there's no huge imbalance as there is (in a lot of peoples' eyes) between Firaxis' 'top-tier' traits like Financial and 'bottom-tier' Imperialistic/Protective. But I would ask someone else who has tried it - it's not really fair for me to say. While I'm trying to tend towards some kind of trait balance, it is a work in progress and as I said in the post above, I've already modified it further offline to try and achieve this (by reducing the power of Cre/Exp/Fin, which through playtesting seem to do consistently well, and to reduce the synergy of Cre/Phi Pericles).

I'll still play Firaxis traits time to time, for hotseat or direct IP games, but there are several things that bug me about them (Stalin building world wonders faster? Financial being boring/easy-to-exploit/nothing to do with trade or gold? 25% faster workers on 'Expansive' - that's practically nothing etc).
 
I for one dont like traits at all (its imposible to make them even remotely balanced). I wish that the leaders didnt start with free triats. Traits or should I say bonuses should be attained by how you run your empire in the game not on pregame conditions. Basically I feel that instead of traits your building and how you improve your infanstructure should be how you obtain bonuses (like traits). They could be tied into random events like say if you build x number of melee units you get a free bonus for melee units or if you build ligthouse/market/harbor (or some combo like this) any tile in the city radius with 2 gold recieves +1 gold (just like financial). To make it somewhat balancing each city would individually need to build the combo or x number of units before that city could obtain the bonus. It would make each city much more unique and further the strategic importance of high production city locations.
 
I for one dont like traits at all (its imposible to make them even remotely balanced). I wish that the leaders didnt start with free triats. Traits or should I say bonuses should be attained by how you run your empire in the game not on pregame conditions. Basically I feel that instead of traits your building and how you improve your infanstructure should be how you obtain bonuses (like traits). They could be tied into random events like say if you build x number of melee units you get a free bonus for melee units or if you build ligthouse/market/harbor (or some combo like this) any tile in the city radius with 2 gold recieves +1 gold (just like financial). To make it somewhat balancing each city would individually need to build the combo or x number of units before that city could obtain the bonus. It would make each city much more unique and further the strategic importance of high production city locations.

An interesting idea. But, with 'traits' that you have to earn, it seems like one civ could just unlock a large number of traits, leaving the others in the dust. Sure, the others could unlock the same traits as well I suppose. Even then, surely it is enough of a boon to be the first one to build the required infrastructure or military.

The good thing about the original traits from a firaxis perspective is that even if (as you say) it isn't possible to balance them, you can pair up good trait combos with lacklustre unique buildings and units. Unfortunately this judgement is often a matter of opinion and experience, and firaxis haven't got it right every time. Of course, I don't believe that it is impossible to balance traits, which is why I made this thread.
 
50% what to walls? They already build them at double speed.
 
An interesting idea. But, with 'traits' that you have to earn, it seems like one civ could just unlock a large number of traits, leaving the others in the dust. Sure, the others could unlock the same traits as well I suppose. Even then, surely it is enough of a boon to be the first one to build the required infrastructure or military.

It would be really hard for a civ to unlock all of the traits in every city. i would also suggest limiting each city to say 2-3 traits. I dont know if you understood what I was trying to say (I didnt explain it well). Basically, each city based upon that citys building habits would be able to obtain specific bonuses (traits). You wouldnt want a city that has low amounts of wealthy resources but high production to obtain the financial bonus before say the aggresive bonus. A good example would be like comparing ancient Greek city states like Athens and Sparta. Both cities are Greek but the types of warriors and the amount of wealth each city produced were vastly different (as with the attitudes of the people who inhabitated them). Each city had its own "traits" or attitudes that the rest of the surrounding areas percieved them to be like. Even in modern times you can see how certain regions of each country differ in "traits." People in Los Angeles are much different then people in New York (not as good of an example but you get the point). Basically, my opinion is to do away with the leaders and instead you create your own leader (you). Besides a case could be made for virtually every civ leader to have every trait so why limit them to just 2?

However, an easier way would just allow a civ to gain the bonus after they built x number of buildings or units in any city (just like the random events we have now).

In no way can they be balanced. A combo of the original financial, philo will always beat any combo in my opinion (Elizabeth). If you can build the mids first you will win pretty much everytime or at least be in the top three even in MP. Great Engineers=wonder whoring.
 
isnt that what wonders do now? so you just want more national wonders that give the effects of traits?


BTW: nice modpak. i may have to add them as alternate traits to my split traits modpack

No do away witrh traits and base your bonuses or traits on how you run your empire. In other words each civilization can attain any trait but would first have to do what is necessary to obtain that trait (you want to be aggresive? build melee units and fight in aggresive wars then you get the free promotion). Put a stronger emphasis on buildings and the bonuses they offer and add more buildings to offset the loss of the free bonuses (traits).

I say this because realistically there is only a few strategies for each civ based on the leaders traits. This would give each civ a level playing field from turn one.
 
I'm seeing this for the first time, but it looks *really* interesting. I'll have to check this out.

I'm throwing in a wild idea for Imperialistic in the sense of Ikael's "do they feel right?" approach, while I'm at it. Maybe "Imperialistic" should reflect an organized military (rather than the pure ferocity of "Aggressive"). So why not give all melee and gunpowder units the march or (my favourite) the commando promotion? That would really give these civ that "marching" and "organized supply lines" vibe, I think, and when they declare war, you know that the heartland is not safe for a while, making defending against them a somewhat different matter than against other civs.

Of course, that would make Julius a bit extreme, because commando Praets might as well be able to paradrop.
 
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