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Cross-Platform Editor for Conquests now available!

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Creation & Customization' started by Quintillus, Aug 30, 2010.

  1. Quintillus

    Quintillus Archiving Civ3 Content Supporter

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    Interesting. I downloaded the test BIQs, and have been able to confirm that there is a unit there that the Firaxis editor does not display. Still have some investigation to do, though; I've documented it in the bug tracker to ensure it doesn't get forgotten. I am curious what the process was to create the barbarian unit, beyond that the city needs to be owned by a player. Any units placed on a city tile should have the same owner as that city, so it is rather puzzling.

    The Oracle/OpenJDK Java 11+ builds are not compatible. However, I have had good success running the Liberica Java builds. If you choose the "Full JDK" (if you need developer tools) or "Full JRE" package, it includes JavaFX (which the editor requires, and was removed in the Oracle Java 11 build), and the editor should work out of the box; I have verified this with their Java 13 build.

    Alternately, the Windows XP Build includes a bundled Java 8, that the editor will use but will not be a system default. If going that route, the jre1.8_111 folder, Editor_XP.bat file, and (optionally) XP_laucher.vbs file can be copied over to a download of a newer version to have them also use Java 8, independent of your system Java version.

    There also is a macOS build for Java 11. This is a one-off so far, however, as there hasn't been further demand for it. I also have only tested the editor on Macs through High Sierra (which is what my 2010 Mac Mini runs), and cannot guarantee Catalina compatibility.

    It has been a couple years since Java 11 came out, and at the time it proved to be a huge pain to get the editor working with both Java 8 and Java 11; the one-off custom-built Mac version was the only success of that effort, and it looked like success would require building on all OSes (Mac, Windows, Linux) separately rather than just once and having it run anywhere, which would add considerable overhead to a project that is already a bit low on development time. Since at the time Java 8 was still receiving updates, and not auto-updating to Java 11, I decided to go back to focusing on Civ-related features until it came up on the radar again. It might be time to revisit it and see if there is a less painful way forward now than when I last looked at it.

    It does look like my hosted download links broke after I combined a few virtual private servers earlier this summer. I've added a note to update those.

    I have not. I have explored barbarian cities a little bit, and there are a few threads in C&C discussing them... and it looks like I was able to find the most recent one here.
     
  2. Civinator

    Civinator Blue Lion Supporter

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    Quintillus, thank you very much for your detailed answers and I´m glad, that things are going better for you now again. :)

    The explanation in the Civ 3ConquestEdit shows, that the multiplayer of 10 is used as the cost multplayer for buildings built by the human player. Edit: May be I have missunderstood this and meant is a number that stands for the multiplayer by 10.




    Quintillus, the handling of enslaved units, listing their original nationality in brackets shows, that all units of the PRTO type are of a particular nationality. They have the nationality of the civ that did build that unit. I attache two screenshots from a CCM2 game, showing the original nationalities of units that were enslaved to workers (among them a barbarian unit that was enslaved to a worker) and of units that were enslaved to Great Artists. So I think this is an argument that these values have to do with the nationality. The program must be aware about the nationality of each unit, as only units with a foreign nationality can be sacrificed (and each unit can be enslaved to an unit that can be sacrificed).



     

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    Last edited: Sep 24, 2020
  3. Ozymandias

    Ozymandias I saw the Great Library burn.

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    Interesting - I'd highly recommend keeping this as a feature. Consider: It allows a mod or scenario to begin with cities in revolt.
     
  4. Quintillus

    Quintillus Archiving Civ3 Content Supporter

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    Ah; based on your initial post, I had book looking at the Unit (PRTO) tab when discussing the multiplier. On that tab, useExactCost behaves as I described it. This can be shown by starting the Firaxis editor, enabling custom rules, editing units, and seeing that the Jaguar Warrior costs 15 shields, which is meant literally. I believe Firaxis introduced the "literal cost" option when they decided that for balance purposes, some units needed to have a shield cost that ended in a 5, rather than a 0. On older BIQ/BIX/BIC files, a unit that cost 20 shields would have its cost listed as "2", rather than "20", and would not have useExactCost set to 7.

    For buildings, I believe what you have posted is correct. I should not that the Palace seems to have special logic where the cost is at least partially dependent on the size of the empire; I have not determined what the factor is for that, but as it appears to be algorithmic, it would not be something that could be set in a BIQ (though the base cost, which that factor would multiply, can be set).

    As for the PRTO types being of a particular nationality, I believe this is an area where the difference between the SAV and the BIQ is applicable, and the difference between PRTO and UNIT (units on the map) definitely is applicable. PRTO is the "prototype" for a unit - e.g., an Archer always has 2 attack, 1 defense, etc. UNIT is a specific unit - e.g. an Archer that is located at 37, 45, is owned by Japan, and perhaps has the name "Tokyo's Finest". The BIQ fields for UNIT are fully documented at Apolyton:

    Code:
    UNIT SECTION
    
      4    char        "UNIT"
      4    long        number of units
    
      For each unit:
    
        4    long        length of unit data
        32    string        name
        4    long        owner type (0=None, 1=Barbarians, 2=Civ, 3=Player)
        4    long        experience level
        4    long        owner (RACE ID, Player# (0=Player1 and so on) or Barbarian Tribe)
        4    long        PRTO#
        4    long        AI strategy
        4    long        X
        4    long        Y
        57    string        PTW name (replaces name)
        4    long        use civilization king
    The owner refers to the actual owner - e.g. perhaps the Tokyo's Finest archer (PTW name) is in Korean territory, but it is owned by Japan. This can be set up in the BIQ.

    However, I believe what you are highlighting in terms of Nationality is only visible in the SAV, where the fields available for each UNIT may be expanded. The BIQ has no way to trace the original nationality of a unit - but the SAV may do so.

    The scenario editor (currently, at least) is limited by the realm of what the BIQ may specify. To enable SAV fields to be modifiable, I believe the editor would have to not only be able to understand and save all SAV fields (which it does not currently), but would also have to be able to generate a SAV file for every civilization that should be playable for a scenario (versus one BIQ that could be played by all civilizations).

    This is a somewhat intriguing possibility. Realistically, this probably isn't going to happen unless I start working full-time on the editor for some reason. But that is probably what would be needed for "original nationality" to be recognized in the initial setup of a scenario.

    This is an area I am still investigating. I have determined that there is a bug where if a BIQ has a custom map, but default rules, and has units placed, the scenario cannot be loaded in this editor, and that should be fixed. But I suspect that may not be the only interesting thing going on in Arcangelus's BIQ... and I agree, it may be worth keeping this as an option (although I'm still a little bit unclear on how exactly to reproduce the situation).
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2020
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  5. Civinator

    Civinator Blue Lion Supporter

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    Quintillus, thank you very much for your deep explanation. Now I understand much better, what you are meaning by PRTO-units. :thumbsup:

    A different capacity for the biq and for save files - yes, this explains a lot about nationality. :goodjob:

    When reading your post, I started a test by using the multiplayer tool to open some save files of the same game, that I used for the screenshots some posts above. I set all civs in the save to be playable by the human pIayer and started a search for different unit nationalities in all civs in that game. I didn´t find any other unit with a different nationality compared to the nationality of the civ (so there should be tons of them) - with the exception of the civ, that was played by me for hundreds of turns. I think this really speaks for the concept, that a SAV file holds additional information about units for every civilization played by the human player.

    Units with a different nationality, that I created by enslavement for each of those civs, that now were playable by the human player, did show up in the game with the additional listing of their original nationality, as I showed it in the screenshots some posts ago.

    Different nationalities for citizens in conquered cities always were shown for each civ, that was played by the AI and than switched with the multiplayer tool to be played by the human player - so it seems, this is always registered in the save file format - even for AI civs.

    That text in the Civ 3ConquestEdit was written by Firaxis.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2020
  6. Lord Malbeth

    Lord Malbeth Emperor

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    @Quintillus, I have a quick question for ya. I've been using this editor to tinker with LM terrain that is normally off-limits in the main editor. I can adjust them and place them accordingly in your editor, but if I open up my .biq in the OG Civ3Editor, it'll crash. Do you have any idea what is going on, or if there are certain "best" practices" that I should do to avoid these crashes?
     
  7. Quintillus

    Quintillus Archiving Civ3 Content Supporter

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    After some one-by-one testing, it looks like Landmark Marsh is the one that causes the Firaxis editor to crash. I tested volcanoes, tundra, ocean, coast, and jungle, with the Firaxis editor working as intended after adding a little bit of each one, but it crashed after I added some LM Marsh.

    So I suppose the "best practice" would be to avoid LM Marsh. I will be doing some further testing to see if Civ3 itself handles LM Marsh all right or not, and if not, will remove that option altogether.
     
  8. Civinator

    Civinator Blue Lion Supporter

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    Quintillus, please don´t remove that option from your editor as it is working great and those additional LM terrains can do a great job in future scenarios. In my eyes there is no need to remove this option.

    1. There is no need to use the Firaxis editor, when your much better editor is available.
    2. If a Firaxis editor should be used to edit a biq set before with your editor, the modder should use the Firaxis editor 1.00 and not that bugged editor 1.03.

    I made a quick test with an experimental biq I had created with your editor and a combination of the next version of CCM2.50 and the Giant Earth map. In that biq all additional LM terrains were enabled with your editor. I used an easy to identify marsh terrain tile and set it with your editor without any problems to a LM Marsh terrain and saved that test biq.

    Than I opened that test biq with the Firaxis editor 1.00 without any problems. The LM Marsh terrain was shown in the Firaxis editor and the biq was closed in the Firaxis editor without any crash. Here is a screenshot of the test biq opened with editor 1.00.



    I started a game with that test biq without any crash and the LM Marsh terrain was shown in the game, too.



    Quintillus, may be that error is in the buggy Firaxis editor 1.03 and not in your great editor.
     

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  9. Lord Malbeth

    Lord Malbeth Emperor

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    I did a test, too, and for me the LM marsh worked fine. It was the LM flood plain that was causing issues. It's not a huge deal; I just took the LM flood plain out of my mod. Thanks for the quick reply, though!
     
  10. Quintillus

    Quintillus Archiving Civ3 Content Supporter

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    Interesting, I am not well-versed in the differences between versions of the Firaxis Conquests editor. I have also verified that LM Marsh doesn't cause a crash in-game, although on my machine it is using Volcano graphics for some reason (maybe related to not having custom rules enabled?). I've also verified that LM Flood Plains aren't causing the game to crash.

    My current philosophy is that if something causes the game to crash, it shouldn't be enabled in the default configuration of the editor (in some cases, the Safety Level concept allows disabling the guardrails for those who want to test the bounds themselves). But if it doesn't cause the game to crash, and only has issues with the Firaxis editor - in this case, specific versions thereof - it should remain, perhaps with a warning that it will cause incompatibilities for those who prefer to use different editors for different tasks.
     
  11. Lord Malbeth

    Lord Malbeth Emperor

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    Ah, it ain't a huge issue. I'm just soooo thankful for the increased capabilities of your expanded editor. Mad props, dude!
     
  12. Lord Malbeth

    Lord Malbeth Emperor

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    Update: Did a little more tinkering, and it looks like modded LM marshes do indeed crash things. Wah wah. Not a huge issue overall, but I was wondering why my game kept blowin' up without a warning message.
     

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