Cruelty to animals

[Ramius75]

I'll eat the animals that I don't pet.
I don't pet cows, pigs, lamb, goat, chickens, turkeys...

I pet horses, dogs, cats.

That's pretty much how I decide anyhow...

I also don't eat vital organs (hearts, liver, etc). No good reason for it, I suppose.

well, my reason is since you killed the animal. why wasted its other parts ?

All should be put to good use.

 

[kochman]

well, my reason is since you killed the animal. why wasted its other parts ?

All should be put to good use.

I have no problem with you or anyone else eating the rest.

 

[Kyriakos]

Why exactly, though, is human need (to the extent in which it exists) justifying the death of an animal?
And if it does by definition, then why not extend that logical need, to pathological need, and justify also the torture of animals?

Personally like istated i have no problem with animal use, and although i find animal abuse to be distasteful, i am not sure if it should carry harsh prison sentences. It is a bit inconsistent to not punish one for killing animals routinely, and punish another for a sole abuse of an animal. If pain is the issue then surely farm animals experience pain as well (anyone who ever saw some youtube video of animals being killed thinks it obvious that they are suffering) maybe even of equal extent as that of one who is being tormented due to sick sense of having fun.

 

[kochman]

Why exactly, though, is human need (to the extent in which it exists) justifying the death of an animal?
And if it does by definition, then why not extend that logical need, to pathological need, and justify also the torture of animals?

There is a difference. Our biology makes us omnivores. We are designed to eat meat as well as veggies.
Torture doesn't provide sustanance.

You should obviously be as humane as possible (go organic!).

 

[Kyriakos]

My point generally is that all those rules of ethical etiquette in regards to animals are made-up, to such an extent that it is virtually impossible to logically negate any one position on the matter, apart from the belief that said position is backed by hard logic.

 

[Farm Boy]

I'm not opposed to using animals for food, but they are just treated so horribly on farms, I try to avoid meat, specifically mammals. I am less cautious about eating poultry, as they aren't as conscious as mammals.

Are they really, news to me.

Ever slaughtered a chicken? They know what's going on as you chop their little head off. I think you are drawing lines with little basis in reality, but whatever makes you sleep better is fine I guess.

 

[Kyriakos]

That is a horrible image

Reminded a bit of a quote from one of Pessoa's detective stories, according to which the man who kills another man is the man who can kill an animal. From that he only has to be in circumstances where another man to him seems like that animal.

Not sure how true it is, but decapitating a chichen seems gruesome. Most (myself included) are not really aware of just how much routine pain is involved in making food out of animals.

 

[Farm Boy]

Well, decapitation is relatively humane, it doesn't destroy commonly used meats, and helps drain the carcass. Or at least it is about as humane as you can get in small scale operation.

If you are going to eat something you are going to have to kill it. You can't use chemicals to put it to sleep and die, that renders the meat poisonous. Same thing for painkillers. For larger animals you could use something like this but not really for chickens.

Much of the shock I usually see stems from the fact that people are so far divorced from the production of what they eat these days that the realities of animal husbandry are a rude awakening, particularly the slaughterhouse. Violence of any form(even on American TV/Movies) is so sanitized that watching an actual death, even be it a chicken, isn't something most people have to deal with. It's ugly, dirty, messy, and it goes on much longer than you have been lead to believe. It's not a fun thing for any balanced individual to watch.

People also tend to anthropomorphize their food animals some and assume that what would make a person happy is what makes a pig happy. True to an extent, but less than you probably think. Those who raise animals for food have a vested economic interest in ensuring the animal is not ill-treated, even during slaughter. Stressed animals are less healthy, prone to disease, reproduce less effectively, and yield lower quality meat.

Probably the best thing we can do if we are truly interested in effectively and ethically consuming our food is to better ensure we are less wasteful than we are now. If we are going to grow it and we are going to kill it, it seems the least we can do is make sure we make the best use of it.

 

[kochman]

Those who raise animals for food have a vested economic interest in ensuring the animal is not ill-treated, even during slaughter. Stressed animals are less healthy, prone to disease, reproduce less effectively, and yield lower quality meat.

Would that this were true, rather than the best case scenario.
Factory farming shows us that profit is clearly the main motivator for many... mass processing, and basic neglect running rampant. Cows, pigs, chickens... their deaths are actually more humane than much of their life spans, under factory farming situations.

 

[Farm Boy]

There are exceptions to every rule, bad apples in every barrel. The hysteria and ill will pedaled by many animal rights activists with shocking photographs is not an accurate representation of the whole. You can disagree with me on the ethics of confinement operations, that is fine. I think you are getting an inaccurate image though. <shrugs> Basic profit motivation does include interest in the animal beyond neglect, that is what I am saying.

 

[kochman]

There are exceptions to every rule, bad apples in every barrel. The hysteria and ill will pedaled by many animal rights activists with shocking photographs is not an accurate representation of the whole. You can disagree with me on the ethics of confinement operations, that is fine. I think you are getting an inaccurate image though. <shrugs> Basic profit motivation does include interest in the animal beyond neglect, that is what I am saying.

I'll agree there are probably more farmers who aren't into factory farming...
However, the scale of factory farms is so grand, proportionally, that the majority of the livestock is subjected to it.

It's really hard to get an inaccurate image of the way henhouses are run, and the growth hormones, etc... it's quite vile.

 

[Farm Boy]

I'm comfortable with those images of finishing sheds. Looks a lot like Chicago to me.

 

[kochman]

I'm comfortable with those images of finishing sheds. Looks a lot like Chicago to me.

Are you fine with hormone treated chicken breasts being about twice as large as organically fed chicken breasts? Do you think that is ok?

 

[Farm Boy]

Depends on the health of the resultant meat when consumed. As far as the topic of this thread, do I think treatments that increase the productivity of animals bred for slaughter are inherently cruel, then no I do not. Insofar as we can try to ride this train of thought - if about twice as much healthy meat were able to be garnered from an animal in a safe fashion would it not be an overall boon to animal welfare to make the most of slaughter?

 

[Samson]

Depends on the health of the resultant meat when consumed. As far as the topic of this thread, do I think treatments that increase the productivity of animals bred for slaughter are inherently cruel, then no I do not. Insofar as we can try to ride this train of thought - if about twice as much healthy meat were able to be garnered from an animal in a safe fashion would it not be an overall boon to animal welfare to make the most of slaughter?

From the way you are talking, and your username, I assume you are talking from experience? Have you ever worked in pig fattening sheds? They are pretty bad, concrete squares with about 10 piglets > young pigs in each, with little to do all day but bully the weakest ones. They lose a few, with cannot take to constant biting and bruising inflicted by all the others. I really believe pigs are intelligent / concious / sentient (which ever word you think fits better) in a way chickens are not, and I think significantly more so than cattle and sheep.

I have to admit it does not stop me eating them, but I sometimes think it should.

 

[Kyriakos]

There is that nice quote about pigs, which (iirc) a forum member here has as his sig:

A dog looks up to man, a cat looks down on man, and a pig looks him in the eye and sees his equal.

 

[kochman]

There is that nice quote about pigs, which (iirc) a forum member here has as his sig:

A dog looks up to man, a cat looks down on man, and a pig looks him in the eye and sees his equal.

Except cats are stupid.

 

[Farm Boy]

From the way you are talking, and your username, I assume you are talking from experience? Have you ever worked in pig fattening sheds? They are pretty bad, concrete squares with about 10 piglets > young pigs in each, with little to do all day but bully the weakest ones. They lose a few, with cannot take to constant biting and bruising inflicted by all the others. I really believe pigs are intelligent / concious / sentient (which ever word you think fits better) in a way chickens are not, and I think significantly more so than cattle and sheep.

I have to admit it does not stop me eating them, but I sometimes think it should.

I've seen pig fattening sheds, I've done more actual hands on work(still not a major livestock guy) in more "traditional" small scale operations. The thing I think you are missing is that you think the confinement actually causes the bullying(it might depending how things are set up). That happens even when they have ample space. Chickens are horrible about this even with no restrictions on their roaming during the day.

 

[SS-18 ICBM]

The confinement would tend to make it worse, no?

 

[Farm Boy]

It can. It depends on how it is done, to what extent, and with what animal.

An injured chicken is in pretty significant danger from its cohorts even with no discernible confinement at all.