Crusades and the Egypt respawn

[Lawrie]

It is other people's decision whether or not they want to ignore it, as you most certainly did not.

I find these discussions fun and interesting, so didn't feel the need to ignore it but im sure lonewolf can appreciate too, that the very engrossing nature of these topics lends themselves to pages of discussion that probably arent so appropriate to your crusade suggestions.

 

[Lone Wolf]

First of, its interesting to note that the book whose review you quoted recieved (mostly positive reviews) suggesting the negative review to be somewhat in the minority perhaps on the basis of its authors personal dissent over its perception of the Crusades.

The review's author actually agrees with Rodney Stark's arguments when it comes to the "profit or piety?" question. He specifically states that his disagreements lay elsewhere. And he does cite other researchers like Riley-Smith in order to support his thesis.

to the rulers of the day, in order to unify them to form a geo-political alliance against an erstwhile (unified foe) expanding into 'Christendom.'

There was no unified foe expanding into Christendom in the 11th century

 

[Lawrie]

I know I have to resist the temptation to discuss so im shutting up! All i can do is this hehe

Thanks for raising an interesting wee side topic though!

 

[Lone Wolf]

Fine, I'm shutting up too, especially since I don't consider myself a real expert on the topic, either.

 

[great.taurus]

There’s a number of quality suggestions in this thread, but I’m going to add something that’s been bouncing around in my mind for a while, if only to prompt further discussion.

The basic idea is to tie the beginning of the crusades to the construction of a world wonder (or project, I suppose), and to represent the crusader states as a minor (unplayable) faction. Fortunately, appropriate art for a crusade wonder already exists.

Spoiler :

When this wonder is constructed, the “Crusader” minor civ is born.

In addition to the spawning effect, the wonder also provides +1 gold to each of the owner’s Catholic buildings whenever a Crusader army captures a city, stacking up to 5 times.

The Crusader civilization itself has the "Crusader" Unique Unit, which replaces the heavy swordsman, and is well equipped for siege. Again, art already exists.

Spoiler :

There's also apparently a leaderhead of Godfrey de Bouillon somewhere, if at all necessary.

The Crusader spawn doesn’t flip any tiles like a regular spawn, but acts more like the Seljuks, receiving an army loaded up into boats near Jerusalem.

I threw together a mock-up of how it might take shape:

Spoiler :

And this is what the game might look like ten turns later:

Spoiler :

Finally, Catholic leaders are given a new event so long as the crusader states are alive, with three possible choices.

The pope requests more men for the crusade in the holy land:

• Give no units
  • Results in a -2 diplomatic penalty to all Catholic leaders.

• Give 1 unit
  • No change in diplomatic relations.

• Give 3 units
  • Results in a +2 diplomatic bonus to all Catholic leaders.

Upon selecting your choice, the appropriate number of units will be taken from your standing army and placed in the Crusader capital city (or, I suppose, in a galley next to Jerusalem if they havent yet conquered anything) under Crusader ownership.

Obviously most of the details, including all the numbers, are pretty arbitrary, so don’t read too much into them.

 

[J. pride]

Damascus under the crusaders?

 

[great.taurus]

Damascus under the crusaders?

Sure. It's not like they didn't want it.

 

[strijder20]

Hey, the St. Hospitallers built a Hospital in Damascus.

 

[Hippo8085]

The wonder/project could inflate Europeans a little early on. Also, it would have to obsolete quickly in order to not let the crusades happen in, say, 1500 AD. I think if this route is taken, the wonder should:
A) Start a corporation that spreads with this minor civ. Wonder gets +2 gold for every captured city. In the end, if the crusades fail, this should run at a net loss due to inflation.
B) Give an instant gold bonus if the minor civilization still exists at a certain point (Normal every ten turns?)

 

[Lawrie]

I think it would be great to offer the Crusade as a choice for the different civilisations (that we are going to make a part of this.)

If we're modelling the principle of this crusade on the basis that the Byzantines are asking for relief as an initiation point, then just like the Kings of old, there should be an opportunity to refuse (perhaps diplo penalties with those kingdoms that do go.)

I think this can be a fun mechanic to explore as the narrative of the Crusades is intriguing but i think there should be some unpredictability associated with it - perhaps more than we're looking at. So that every game doesnt consist of the same kind of war.

Ie. Can we include enough possibilities for different outcomes?

On the wider note can this not also be an opportunity to explore the phenomena of crusade and jihad outside the 'event' of the crusades. To me the potential for religious extremism manifesting itself as crusades or jihads etc, is something worth exploring perhaps with random events associated with the theocratic civic too?

After all there is no reason why the crusades might not happen earlier or later depending on the shape of the world?

 

[Locutus_Morti]

I'm for great.taurus here. Although what happens when the Crusaders collapse? When do they?

 

[iOnlySignIn]

I agree with great.taurus that the Crusaders should be a minor civ like Seljuks.

Although it should be a Vassal of the Pope (i.e. whoever wins the Apostolic Election), to better tie in with the HRE UHV.

Perhaps this will make AI HRE more interesting. Currently it has little interest in taking Jerusalem, preferring Kiev, Paris, or Madrid instead.

 

[Hippo8085]

Unfortunately it also may make player HRE too boring. I tend to find that a civilization in as strong a position as the HRE who takes Rome is almost guaranteed the Residency, especially with the double votes.

 

[great.taurus]

I'm for great.taurus here. Although what happens when the Crusaders collapse? When do they?

In a couple of test games, the Turks wiped them out soon after their spawn.

 

[Locutus_Morti]

I don't know much about the time, is that roughly historical? And more importantly, are they a fun faction to mess around with?

 

[great.taurus]

I don't know much about the time, is that roughly historical?

The Kingdom of Jerusalem died in 1291, and the Ottomans spawn in 1280, so yeah, that seems about the right timetable for their death.

Other Crusader States kicked on for a couple of hundred years after that, but didn't have control of the Holy Land, as far as I am aware.

And more importantly, are they a fun faction to mess around with?

Keep in mind I've just been toying around by plonking down units in the World Builder at the appropriate time. They usually conquer the territory nominally owned by the crusaders in reality, burn out their armies fighting Seljuks, and die promptly to the Ottomans. It's a little hard to extrapolate how they will change gameplay in a more organic scenario, but yeah, they seem like fun to play around with. Their impact is hardly world-changing, but, as a minor faction, it really shouldn't be.

Their true impact doesnt come from conquering territory, though. The events and the wonder mean that the Crusades are primarily a tool for changing the political and military status quo in Europe, by either isolating certain factions diplomatically, or weakening them militarily. I haven't been able to see this effect play out just using the world builder, so their value is still up in the air as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Lawrie]

Whoah I don't know about a spawning Crusader States?

I mean the Crusader States resulted from military conquest - not from a civilisation emerging. Plus it really is not a civilisation in any sense of the word?

Even a minor civ would give the players of the Islamic states, yet another inevitable horde to contend with on the very coast? Would that actually be fun?

I mean hey if it can be made so great - all for it! But my first impression is... there Jeresulum building a granary then BING - converts, and out of magical no-where - kick ass Christian knights!

I'm warming to the crusades idea initiated by a wonder, (maybe even a few unique units too, for different knight orders etc.) but spawning colonies that were so small and fought for by outside invaders? I don't know?

 

[Bonci]

What if the catholic holy city is not Jerusalem? In the 3000BC start it's very common...

 

[Lone Wolf]

Even a minor civ would give the players of the Islamic states, yet another inevitable horde to contend with on the very coast? Would that actually be fun?

This is the best objection to introducing the Crusades. I think that they'll be fine if we remove the Seljuks, whom I consider to be superfluous, but introducing them now will turn the whole medieval Middle East into a punching bag for spawned stacks.

 

[Lawrie]

Yep although not specific to the thread, I think the addition of the Seljuks could be replaced with the introduction of a Shia related event.

Regarding the crusades I think that (and later perhaps Jihad can be examined too) could be cool. Crusader States just dont really qualify as a civilisation and barely as even an independent state really.