CS Lib envoy spam & do they get more

[Victoria]

There has been a few threads on this and I was just playing a deity game where I liberated Brussels and on the next turn 7 emvoys were added by 3 Civs... So I thought I'd check the log file (Game_influence.csv) to see just how many they had used.
This file shows the envoys (tokens)... the one on turn 2 was a freeebie for finding Zanzibar (destination 8)
The Unique bonus just seems to mean they were suze and tokens given is the total they have given

Green = finding envoy
Red = suze ... sometimes the total bonus changes, other times not.
Yellow - just showing 1 civs spends
Aqua = What happened the turn after I liberated Brussels from Brazil

So it looks like Civs do not get more envoys and the reasons they spammed brussels the turn after I liberated it was probably because the liberation notification made them all aware of brussles and they had spare envoys.

So here was can see that the most envoys used was Poland who have 5 envoys by turn 70
All the civs who sunk into my liberated CS has not spent any envoys up until that point

Here are Polands Civic discovered .. they only have 2 that give envoys
Australia = 0, China = 2, France = 1, Russia = 1, Aztecs = 0, Brazil = 2

So to me it loooks like Poland have at least 3 free envoys and the way they spend them it looks like its one per era but it may be based on difficulty. They may be down to quests or at least one... There does seem to be generally about 2 free envoys

Things found

1. It appears AI Civs do 'seem' to get a few free envoys.. but could be quests
2. After liberation you can get spam envoys as the CS becomes visible to other civs
3. AI civs do not really get much envoys advantage, maybe even none.

I am not going to do more work on this ATM as it takes time, feel free to help clarify further
... comments?

 

[unpossible251]

nice work @Victoria ... I recently brought up a similar issue with a liberated La Venta. So, i suspect a CS on another continent suddenly becoming visible has probably been freshly liberated.

About the only unanswered question is why they save envoys; as a player, the only reason I havent spent them immediately is to cozy up to King Redbeard.

thanks again!

 

[Leyrann]

I actually save up envoys in my current game because the only city-states I know right now are Lisbon and Jerusalem. I'm not playing a religion game, so Jerusalem is useless, and I already got 3 envoys in Lisbon, which really is enough for me, I'll just save up the rest for when I'm discovering the other continent.

 

[Victoria]

About the only unanswered question is why they save envoys; as a player, the only reason I havent spent them immediately is to cozy up to King Redbeard.

Well I have not 100% answered it, just some probably's, I like more proof.
On your question... looking at the game above ... Aus, Aztec and France ... looking at their positions, they are all in the area outlined with no CS Other games are not so clear cut and likely one of the following

1. As @Leyrann said, they have enough in a CS
2. All CS nearby to not match their VC or some preference programming
3. They may have a hold back mechanism for strategy attacks also

 

[DizzKneeLand33]

I'm still thinking there should be more envoys given to the liberator, like 6.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I'm still thinking there should be more envoys given to the liberator, like 6.

Speaking of which, how do you actually get the Protectorate Casus Belli? I've had civs take two of my suzerains in my last game, and neither time did a Protectorate War casus belli appear in my diplomatic menu.

 

[DizzKneeLand33]

I think you have to make sure to denounce those civs first.

 

[Victoria]

how do you actually get the Protectorate Casus Belli?

The Ally needs to still be alive and still your ally, denounce, wait 5 turns and hope to hell they are as useless at taking CS as this Casus is

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

The Ally needs to still be alive and still your ally

Ah. So I have to declare before the city-state falls.

 

[DizzKneeLand33]

Yes, and the problem is that there is only one factor for the number of turns between denounce and cactus belly, so you can't program it to be zero turns for protectorate war and 5 turns for all others. Not without some creativity, anyway.

I'm not 100% sure that you have to declare before the city-state falls, but you have to denounce before then iirc. Anyone else know for sure?

EDIT: In an ideal world, you should be able to immediately declare war to protect the CS with no warmonger penalties, imho.

 

[Rosty K]

I once tried denouncing when somebody was trying to conquer the precious Buenos Aires from under my wrath, it still didn't work. So I had to let them take it, declare a formal war and then liberate to compensate for the huge late era penalty.

In some 100 turns they took it again though, at which point I decided that to hell with it

 

[steveg700]

nice work @Victoria ... I recently brought up a similar issue with a liberated La Venta. So, i suspect a CS on another continent suddenly becoming visible has probably been freshly liberated.

About the only unanswered question is why they save envoys; as a player, the only reason I havent spent them immediately is to cozy up to King Redbeard.

thanks again!

There are sound reasons to save up envoys. Once you have six parked at a CS, you're only competing for suzerainty at that point. If you're in the lead, no need to spend more. If not, you may be so outpaced there's no point catching up. Not every type of CS is worth throwing envoys at, so if there are CS's left to discover it could easily be worth hanging on to some.

Now, what metric the AI is using, I know not. I do wonder if it actually has quests, or if it is just randomly awarded some to simulate quests.

 

[Victoria]

I do wonder if it actually has quests, or if it is just randomly awarded some to simulate quests.

It may be that quests are our way to catch up with their freebies.
I'll see if I can dig up anything

There are sound reasons to save up envoys. Once you have six parked at a CS,

Yeah, there is a guide to city states that talks about all of this in the tips and tricks section, I'll see if I can convince @WillowBrook tomupdate it with these findings... although not concrete yet.

 

[UWHabs]

I often like to keep one or two envoys back, in case someone sneaks in to steal my city-state. Often it's a hard choice: do I upgrade to get 6 into a city for the bonus, or do I use the envoy or two to ally with someone else, or do I keep them in my back pocket in case an AI tries to take over my more valuable CS.

 

[Rosty K]

If you think of it, the way the system works, everyone gets their envoys from influence (not from civics) more or less at the same time, so there is some rationale in not spending them right away, but instead waiting for a few turns in case anyone displaces you as a suzerain of a good CS. There isn't much point in doing that early - then you care more about getting the bonuses and putting the '2 envoys if first' card to intensive use, but later I tend to keep 2-3 envoys unused at all times, and that helps a lot.

I don't know how the AI uses them, but it looks like they tend to store them as well. Also the AI seems to display similar behavior with apostles - they send them out in groups, meaning it either accumulates faith, or units themselves. Which means the AI does have an idea of accumulating a resource.

It might also be that sometimes the AI simply opens civics that give envoys and receives envoys from influence at the same turn, explaining how they get a lot at once. Once again, hard to tell if that's a deliberate behavior (not too hard to pull, especially for an AI, which can easily keep control of all the numbers), or a coincidence.

 

[UWHabs]

If you think of it, the way the system works, everyone gets their envoys from influence (not from civics) more or less at the same time, so there is some rationale in not spending them right away, but instead waiting for a few turns in case anyone displaces you as a suzerain of a good CS. There isn't much point in doing that early - then you care more about getting the bonuses and putting the '2 envoys if first' card to intensive use, but later I tend to keep 2-3 envoys unused at all times, and that helps a lot.

I don't know how the AI uses them, but it looks like they tend to store them as well. Also the AI seems to display similar behavior with apostles - they send them out in groups, meaning it either accumulates faith, or units themselves. Which means the AI does have an idea of accumulating a resource.

It might also be that sometimes the AI simply opens civics that give envoys and receives envoys from influence at the same turn, explaining how they get a lot at once. Once again, hard to tell if that's a deliberate behavior (not too hard to pull, especially for an AI, which can easily keep control of all the numbers), or a coincidence.

Only the first envoys from influence will come at the same time. Since everyone will change to the first governments at different times, and decide differently in the +2 influence vs double first envoy, after that it will vary too much to budget for. But the theory is still "if I don't need the envoy right now, better to save it and make a better decision". I still think you don't get enough from liberating, especially in the modern era, as well. More than once I've liberated a CS, and then someone else has immediately the next turn put enough in to force me out of suzerainship.

 

[slowcar]

In any case, liberating a city state feels just bad if AIs spam envoys and take over the next turn - especially as it throws your victorious units out of the city states borders, putting them in strange places (and sometimes between enemies).
Imo this AI behavior should be patched, either causing them to spend their envoys more aggressively or not triggering the spending frenzy on meeting a liberated city state.
In Civ5 you got 250 influence which was quite a lot, maybe 6 free envoys on liberation would work better.

 

[Victoria]

especially as it throws your victorious units out of the city states borders,

Well it throws them to its borders then expands its borders by 3 tiles as it has 3 shiny new envoys so weirdly you can still end up in its borders.
I still take it because it is 3 extra envoys for Merchant Confederation.
Having played around a lot with envoys I have found that 4 seems to stop AI's investing.

 

[gunnergoz]

Very interesting & helpful discussion.

 

[SaMatra]

Deity (and Immortal too?) have all eurekas as soon as tech becomes available I can guess that they get free envoys from quests very often. Also Deity AI builds all kinds of units so pretty much most of quests are completed right away.