ct3 - Chieftain Training Day (for newbies only)

[stwils]

Here it is. Log will follow after I get it typed.

 

[stwils]

Preturn: Domestic advisor says ALL our cities are growing slowly.

Made the following changes in production:
In Persepolis, from Oracle to Pyramid. (Pyramid here will only take 21 turns and in Babylon would have taken 31)

In Susa changed from Temple to Great Lighthouse. 57 turns away but hopefully we can speed our shields up

In Tarsus, from Immortal to Spearman (less time)

And because Padma and Chieftess indicated that our courthouses were too close to the capital, and that we needed more settlers, I set Arbela and Pasagardae from courthouses to settlers.

In Babylon changed Pyramid (see Persepolis above) to Oracle for 21 turns.

(Some of these will take a long time, so if I have made mistakes in these changes, hopefully some of you will be able to ressurrect things.)

Turn 1 - 50 AD
Arbela worker - road
2 Ulundi workers moved
Galley - moved its 3 times - it would only go certain directions no matter how I tried to move it otherwise. It is far from shore and I could not get it back near home.
Ulundi worker moved to join other 2
Antioch produces Temple. Set to barracks.

Turn 2 70 AD
3 Antioch workers moved to bonus spot (can't remember but I think plains.)
3 Ulundi workers building road to Bapedi
2 Bapedi move toward spices (to help connect road to Ulundi)
Galley moves 3 times in the middle of nowhere. Only would go certain spots.
Pasagardae produces settler. set to Immortal for 6 turns
Our borders expand.
Bapedi produces Galley. Set to Worker. Bapedi is a mess and full of jungle)

Turn 3 90 AD

Our galley was lost at sea. ^%$#^%$#^%
Moved new settler to the SW
Persepolis workers road plains bonus
New galley at Bapedi is STUCK! (?????) Can't move it to coast. Only place it would go was to the west on that lake. And now it is STUCK there, too. What is this all about? Anyway, I just fortified it until we could figure it out.
Bapedi workers at spices road toward Ulundi

Turn4 110 AD

Settler from Pasagardae moves south on road. But gets stuck in jungle
Worker at Arbela moved to hills
3 workers at Ulundi moved toward Bapedi
3 Antioch workers build road

Turn5 130 AD

Cheers arise but I could not see where they came from
Arbela worker roads hill
Pasagadae settler moves south on road looking to the wheat east of Arbela
Antioch worker roads plains and mines. (I hit something wrong and it said skip turn. Not sure what. ?)
3 faithful Ulundi workers continue to build road toward Bapedi
Antioch worker to plains
Tarsus produces Spearman. Set production to Worker because things there need help

Turn6 150 AD

Fortified Spearman at Tarsus
Settler continues toward wheat in the east
worker mines in Antioch
other worker there roads

Turn7 170 AD

Settler keeps moving east
3 Ulundi workers move toward Bapedi
Arbela celebrates "we love the emperor" or some such thing

Turn8 190 AD

Worker mines at Arbela
Antioch worker moves east
other Antioch work mines
settler moves south east with determination
3 Ulundi workers road diligently hoping to connect to Bapedi soon.
And Bapedi workers move to join in the roading connection
Pasagadae produces Immortal. Set to worker
"We love the emperor" at Ulundi
Ulundi produces Temple. Set to worker.
Antioch produces barracks. Set to Immortal

Turn9 210 AD

2 Antioch workers road
Fortified Immortal at Pasagadae
Settler build NEW CITY - Gordium - near wheat in the east. Production set to Spearman
2 Bapedi road

Turn 10 230 AD

"We love the emperor day" again but never saw where
3 workers rush to join road to Bapedi.
2 Antioch workers mine


Comments:
We are 1 turn away from the Republic
We are 1 turn away from having road connecting Bapedi to Ulundi
We are only 11 turns away from the Pyramid
And we have a new city



Also, I spotted iron below Babylon with thankfully no road to it, so if our roaded iron goes out, we will have a new source.

 

[Padma]

I wanted to wait until I could look at the save before I commented.

I don't know why your galleys wouldn't move correctly. I had no problem.

And I think I mentioned the iron below Babylon in an earlier post.

Anyway, Chieftess is looking at the save as I type, so I'm sure she will be here with a critique after a while.

 

[stwils]

Padma, you say you played the game and the galleys worked fine. But could you move that new galley in Bapedi out to the coast? It would not budge for me. I thought perhaps it was because of the jungle near the coast. So in desperation I moved it to the west to see what would happen. It moved into that little lake and was stuck there as well.

The galley archer had bravely set on its course in the sea would not work right for me either. I tried to move it in lots of directions. It would only go to certain spots, and I was trying to get it back home. And then it sank at the beginning of the next turn.

Yes, now as I read back over your comments, I see you did mention that unroaded iron near Babylon. When I wrote my log I did not remember exactly what you had said only that we needed to keep some of our iron unconnected and so I was happy to see some.

I hope all of the changes I made in production were on the right track (ie like changing the Pyramids to another city so we could get it faster.)

I welcome comments even if they are full of those little green guys that are smoking...

stwils

 

[Padma]

stwils, were you trying to use "gotos" or extended mouse movements? You can't plot multiple tile moves if they go ino "forbidden" terrain, like ocean tiles. You can, however, move one tile at a time through them.

I had no problem moving the exploring galley. (BTW, archer, why was it exploring towards the south pole? There wouldn't be anything there?)

I also moved your lake-bound galley out to sea on turn 0 of your save. I don't know why you had problems.

I haven't really reviewed your turn, though. I know CT said she was looking at it last night.

 

[stwils]

Padma, I never use the "goto" thing. Or the mouse. I was trying to move the galleys with the arrow keys on the number pad - the way I move all units (4,2,9 etc.) one stroke at a time.

And once stuck on that lake, the galley would not move east again through the city nearer the coast.

Were you using the numbered keys to move yours with?

I'm puzzled.

stwils

 

[stwils]

Sorry, Padma. Just forget the galley thing. I found out what I was doing.

A little while ago I opened up the save as you did, and on turn 0 activated the fortified galley which was on the lake. I pressed the 6 to go east. It did not move. So then I pressed the 9 and it went to the city! I pressed the 3 to go to the coast. It did not move. Then I pressed the 6 and out it went.

I was using the wrong keys. Sometimes I have trouble telling the ones to use on the isometric map.

So the galley is fine and ready to go. It seemed stuck to me because I was using the wrong numbered keys.

stwils

 

[Padma]

Don't feel too embarrased, stwils. I've made the same mistake before, myself.

If I was using the keypad I would have possibly figured it out, but my 3-yr-old granddaughter likes to "help" me play by pushing buttons on the keyboard, so I keep the keyboard tray shoved under the desk and rely on the mouse for most things.

 

[mcdan]

I liked stwils' plan to rearrange Oracle to Pyramid and vice- versa with Persepolis and Babylon. But when I tried to play the game - it would not let me - because each wonder was already being built. I guess this could just be the "variations between games" but I did wonder if I had done something wrong.

My boats did move just fine - Like you Padma, I must hid my keyboard from little ones so therefore I use the mouse only.

I do wonder - Since we cannot rush the Lighthouse - what is the plan. Do we build and build - fortify etc and prepare to meet others later - can we gather enough power in our one island to be prepared for the future negotiations with other cultures. This is the first game I have tried where "no one" is Out there.

Thanks again stwils for your good report. I see we are 1 turn away before the Republic - is that the plan or should we stay in despotism until we get the Lighthouse?

 

[Padma]

There is a trick to "shuffling" Wonders. We use an old programmer's trick called a "placeholder".

In Civ3, the most common placeholder is the Palace. It costs as much to build as a Wonder, so there is little worry that switching production to it will accidentally cause it to be built, or waste shields. Any other Wonder that you are not building could also be used, as could almost any regular building if not too many shields have been applied, yet.

What stwils *might* have done, is change Babylon from Pyramids to Palace. Then since the Pyramids are not being built, she could change Persepolis to the Pyramids. Now the Oracle is available, so she could change Babylon from Palace to the Oracle.

One step at a time, always building only what *can* be built.

 

[Padma]

~sigh~

I also see that Chieftess hasn't yet posted a critique.

I know she is very busy, as the President of the Demo game (she is retiring after this term), and with her Mod and Chat Op duties, but I will "nag" her some more.

 

[stwils]

I have no idea how I got the Pyramid and Oracle switched. I think I jiggled around some things but can't remember what. I wish I could claim some knowledge of place holding, but I had none.

The main thing I wanted to do was get the Great Lighthouse.

A few minutes ago I went back and opened archer's 30AD save. I tried to recreate the switch I made, and was unable to do so.

Luck the first time????

stwils

 

[Padma]

Luck the first time????

Apparantly!

I am sure that you followed (unbeknownst to you) something along the lines of what I suggested. You may have taken (many) more steps, but the end result was the same. You juggled production until Wonder A was free, set the other city to that, freeing Wonder B, and then set the original city to Wonder B.

 

[mcdan]

As we wait fior Chieftess to give her report, I am curious about the choice to chose the Republic in one turn or to remain in Dep. until the Lighthouse. Also am wondering B the Builder's thought since his turn is next.

 

[Padma]

Padma's Opinion.

The thing to remember is that when changing governments, we will have Anarchy for some random number of turns. The number of turns seems to be somewhat dependent on the size of the civilization. In our case, right now, I would guess 3 - 5 turns.

While in Anarchy, we lose all production, science research, and gold income. That means for 3 - 5 turns, we will make no progress towards any of the Wonders we are building.

However, once we are a Republic, our commerce increases, and we are freed from the "-1 if over 2" restriction on food and production as well. Will we recover our lost shields from Anarchy in a reasonable amount of time with the improved production?

If we will not gain enough shields in our Wonder-producing cities with the switch to Republic, then it may be in our interest to stay in Despotism for a while. The Great Lighthouse is far enough out that it will probably benefit from the change. Pyramids and Oracle are closer, and a switch now could cost us their construction if anyone else is also close to building them.

FWIW, If this were my game, I would probably make the switch, and take the chance on the wonders. I think the benefits of Republic are worth the risk.

 

[stwils]

It's been 5 days now - going on 6 - since the last game was posted and we are in a holding pattern.

Chieftess, are you still with us? I hope so.

stwils

 

[mcdan]

Thanks Padma for discussing the plan to go from dep to anarchy to Republic. That seems to be a move that must be timed precisely. But a few moves of anarchy (and so often if just seems like 3 moves) then we are back in the game with better production, food and finally recovered shields.

I know that we wiped out two countries in our island but aside from this - is this an unusually isolated island - do we need to build walls for our port cities and build more immortals ( and other forms of military) to help us if we are suddenly in need of defense. Build and build and build everything? The others might arrive - if they do- I assume they will have stronger ships than galleys (due to deep waters ) or so it seems now as the galley sank in stwil's game)- should we even risk sending galleys out or let then be fortified near our shores on a good tile i.e. 2/0/2 for coast and fish or 2/1/2/ for whale.

After reading the discussion with Padma and Stwils' I did try and move the two wonders using the Palace. It did work. But am still not sure how. I need to practice it again. It semes a bit more diff. than I expected but I can see how this is vital to master.

Hopefully will have more time to focus on this over the weekend - we are in Atlanta in a downpour so coaching soccer/baseball may be out this weekend (the games will be postponed - I am not that selfish ) But I need to research more on this game and want to improve my strategy.

As I read Cracker and others on the forum it seems that the primary manuver now is to focus on key tactical tools (i.e. still improving the tiles, workers utilized etc) and not major startegy considerations. This is hard - I really want to see the big picture - and who is around the corner!

 

[mcdan]

Hi Chieftess - I know you are very busy as the President of the Demo game - plus the Mod and Chat Op duties !!! - is it wrong to ask if we could perhaps just send Bob the Builder on his way i.e. "Got It" - then you could critique his move and stwil's at a later date?

Not trying to rush you but just an idea to keep the momentum going in our game.

Thanks - I am learning so much from this game - I think it is the first Chieftain level game I have seen as a TD game.

Sincerely, McDan

 

[Chieftess]

Ok, I'm in the thread now. I'll get it sometime today...

It'll definately be easier when I don't have to be on top of every thread in the demogame.

 

[Chieftess]

Cities -

Ok, I'll start with Zimbabwe. There are two tiles that aren't being worked (NW and E tile). Also, if those two tiles are moved to the forest, the FP can be done in 5 turns instead. The same holds true for the cities surrounding it.

Babylon can also finish the Oracle in ten by moving two worked tiles producting 1 spt (shield per turn) to the forests. In higher level difficulties, this can be a "make or break" move. Granted, you might "lose" some gold per turn by doing so (4gpt in this case), but if it's an important wonder, it might outweigh the risks.

Susa is building the Great Lighthouse, but is taking a very long time. (too long if you're playing a higher level). It needs irragation for growth, and to support the worked tiles on forests, hill (after it expands) and the mountain.

Workers -

The workers by Antioch are building mines (and one in the desert). We're going for Republic in 1 turn. If we do switch, we should think about irragating up to that region. There's also a worker mining the hill by Arbela. It might be better to mine the worked tile nearby, as it will give 1 extra food that the hill doesn't give. There's also a worker (a single worker) cutting down the jungle. It's best to have several workers on the same tile, clearing the jungle. It gets done quicker. (have atleast 4 workers).

We have 11 cities and 6 workers. We definately need more workers, especially with our civ being spread out as it is. Plus, there's jungle that needs to be clear so our FP site can be more effective.

The military looks ok for now. We can reassess after we find other civs.