ct3 - Chieftain Training Day (for newbies only)

[rwprice]

Sorry, I didn't attach it to the previous message. Also, here's my turn log.

Save File, 170 BC

-Pre-turn, 370 BC
Moved worker in Susa from northwest forest tile to southeast, taking Padma's suggestion to work a roaded forest tile for the extra gold.

Reassigned two workers who were previously building roads east of Ulundi. This area is not yet within our cultural borders, so I sent them to Bapedi to clear the jungle surrounding the spices. With workers now assigned to Bapedi, I changed this city's production to Galley. We need to start finding out what the rest of our world looks like, and since we're on an island, we'll need ships to do it.

Turn 1: 350 BC

1. Our researchers are working on Philosophy. This will allow us to switch governments to Republic later.
2. Two workers southwest of Ulundi are working on a road which will eventually connect this city to Tarsus.
3. Meanwhile, workers east of Tarsus are working on roads heading east to connect to Ulundi.
4. The worker near Susa begins building a mine on the square containing iron.
5. Switched production in Babylon to the courthouse. At this stage, we're being hurt more from corruption than from inexperienced troops, so I decided to build something that would lead to more immediate growth (hopefully). After all, we need to get these cities expanding so that we can begin benefitting from the resources just out of reach. Soon, we'll want to trade with whomever we discover.

Turn 2: 330 BC

1. Workers north of Antioch were sent back to the forest square just east of the city. Time to clear this and reclaim some shields.
2. Worker east of Tarsus begins work on roads.

Turn 3: 310 BC

1. Workers near Antioch get busy clearing forest tile.
2. Workers west of Ulundi continue extending roads westward.

Turn 4: 290 BC

1. Workers east of Tarsus continue building road east to connect to Ulundi.
2. Moved a laborer in Susa to the horse tile. This gives us an extra gold without affecting our growth rate.

Turn 5: 270 BC

1. Workers near Antioch start mining.
2. Workers near Babylon begin building road to spice resources.
3. Parsargadae finishes creation of Immortal and then begins work on a temple. Again, I'm looking for culture-expanding options.

Turn 6: 250 BC

1. Tarsus begins production of Immortal UU.
2. Colony founded southwest of Ulundi. I'm hopeful that our galleys are going to make contact with other civs soon. At that point, we can use our excess iron to trade for techs.
3. Immortal in Parsargadae fortifies in the city.

Turn 7: 230 BC

1. Temple started in Antioch.
2. Workers moved from just outside Antioch to clear forests near Persepolis.
3. Workers near Tarsus irrigate the desert areas east of town.
4. Our worker near Ulundi begins mining the iron found near there.

Turn 8: 210 BC

1. I commanded our science advisor to begin researching Republic. The decrease in corruption may be useful once we start to explore other parts of our world. Will we be founding cities on other islands or continents?

Turn 9: 190 BC

1. I'm sending several workers to Ulundi. From there, my thought is to begin building roads to connect to Bapedi. This city needs some help to grow faster.
2. A galley has set out from Susa. At this point, it doesn't carry any passengers, but is exploring that side of the world.
3. Workers near Persepolis begin clearing forests.

Turn 10: 170 BC

1. Workers near Bapedi begin clearing jungle.
2. Worker near Susa begins clearing forest.

 

[Padma]

Before anything else, let me wish Happy Birthday to archer_007.



(Never let it be said that we forget our teammates. )

 

[Padma]

The first thing I was going to talk about was not checking diplomacy, ever! Then it hit me! We don't know anyone else to have diplomacy with! (we need a good "D-oh!" smiley. )

Lots of worker actions! good! (There's not a lot else to do right now, anyway.)

Did you check the current status of the workers you changed on Turn 0? If they were almost done with their current assignment, it might have been prudent to let them finish first, and then move them.

I'll look at the save before I say much else. That'll be tonight, or maybe tomorrow. Today (Sept. 11) is very hard on me. As a 23-year veteran, I had friends in the Pentagon. And friends who had friends/family in the WTC.

 

[stwils]

Hi rwprice - you wasted no time getting your game posted for us. Thanks! I see you have a galley ready to explore. I like the way you wrote your log - very clear and easy to follow. (Good luck with the critique. )

Padma, I am sorry about your friends who lost their lives in the Pentagon. September 11 is a terrible day, but especially for those like you who lost family and/or friends.

And of course, I send birthday greetings to you, archer!

stwils

 

[mcdan]

Re: Diplomacy - Padma you are right - there is no one to check on! Hopefully the Galley might help us find someone out there. I do see in the ratings we are still the top city and we know who is "out there."

Have been meaning to respond to your critique of my 10 turns - Thanks for the detailed critique - my biggest concern was the FP - I didn't realize how important it's placement was - until you and B the B pointed it out -

I did get on the Forum and found a good link. Quotes as follows are from forum.
(please note I was not able to copy and give credit to the writers but you can find the link in the forum under "forbidden palace"):

(1)
Fight corruption. I know it's a SMALL wonder, but it's probably the one wonder you almost NEED to build as soon as possible. It's likely the one the people have build most with leaders as well. Of course, I'm talking about the Forbidden Palace. Either in a spot on the other end of a home continent or on a secodary continent this "small" wonder can make ALL the difference. Doesn't seem all that small to me.

(2)
The most important wonder in the game is Forbidden Palace. Corruption is such a problem, Forbidden Palace is the best way to fight it. Balance it against your capitol - you want your empire to look like the figure 8, with capitol in one center, forbidden palace in the other.

(3)
With the forbidden palace on the same continent, you get 8-10 good cities (maybe). Chances are however that all the land around your capital and forbidden isn't all sweet grassland and ore filled mountains, so in the palace radius I can usually get 2 or 3 good production cities.

(end of forum quotes)

I wonder about the Lighthouse. There was no option to build it - except if I was willing to wait 135 turns ! - but I know exploration is needed.

More later. Thanks again for the critique - McDan

 

[mcdan]

Happy Birthday Archer!

 

[mcdan]

Padma,

Thanks for you honesty. Today is a day beyond description - sadness, anger... no words to say it all really.

McD

 

[mcdan]

rwprice -

Great job - fast posting - and detailed write up. I am about to play "your turns" - Padma already said it all in his write up but good going.

 

[gunning1]

Happy B-Day archer!

 

[Barker]

You guys missed mine

Happy Birthday, Archer!

 

[Archer 007]

Got It!

And Thanks for the Happy Birthday wishes ya'll

 

[Padma]

Originally posted by Barker
You guys missed mine

Happy Birthday, Archer!

Oops! :embarrassed:

Let's see, How about a belated ( 3 - 4 days ) Happy Birthday for you too.


(Somehow I missed it. Sorry.)

 

[Archer 007]

Finished already. (Some dang quick work)Turn 1-150 BC- Babylon completes Courthouse. Starts work on The Pyrmaids. Worker finish and
move to mine horse hill near Susa.
Turn 2-130 BC- Mine/ Clear Forest Work starts near Ulundi. Spearman on mountain outside
terroity is awaked.
Turn 3-110 BC- Work continues.
Turn 4-90 BC- Spearman fortifies at Bapedi.
Turn 5-70 BC- Workers move near Antioch to mine iron hill.
Turn 6-50 BC- Susa completes Immortal. Work starts on Temple.
Turn 7-30 BC- Work coninues.
Turn 8-10 BC- Pasargadae completes Immortals and starts work on Courthouse.
Turn 9-AD 10- Arbela starts work on Courthouse. Galley treks into dangerous waters. Road
from Ulundi to Bapedi started.
Turn 10- AD 30- Galleys moves into coast squares.

We may soon have some new friends/ememies on the new landmass to the south. My reasoning
for building the The Pyramids is that the turn before there completion, we can sell all our
current graniries. This way, we have free money and no upkeep.

 

[BoBtheBUILDER]

As far as I can tell the save that you posted is from 3000 BC, not 30 AD. Am I doing something wrong?

BoB

 

[Padma]

Hmm, I would have sworn that the iron and the horse near Antioch were swapped last time I looked. Oh, well, that just means we have two roaded Irons within our borders already. There really was no need to waste a worker colonizing the one near Ulundi. Yeah, it's an extra one to trade, but it may disappear before we can use it. (Or it may not - the RNG may like us.) My recommendation: the Iron near Babylon should be left alone until we need it!

Next - the deforestation near Persepolis: You do realize that the shields to be gained there are wasted, right? If you look back a few posts, you will see this in an earlier critique:

(Don't chop the forest as long as we are building a wonder, though, or those shields are wasted.)

Too late to do anything, now. They will be done chopping next turn.

Along similar lines, is there a reason the worker near Susa is chopping that particular forest tile? With Forest + Road, it is good for 1 Food, 2 Shields, and 1 Gold. Moving the citizen to the Horse hill (where he is now) gives us 1 Food, 1 Shield, and 2 Gold. The gold is nice, but we need production, too. Putting the citizen back there would shave 5 turns off our production time to Immortal.

And that's the next thing. Why an Immortal? Why not a Temple, or a Settler? We need those things, too. Probably more than an Immortal at this point.

Tarsus, at least needs a defender built. But why an Immortal? A spearman has the same defense, and builds in just over half the time.

Also at Tarsus, the irrigation was a good idea, but it should have been done to a floodplain square rather than a plain desert square.

BTW, there is still an undeveloped Bonus Grassland tile just east of Zimbabwe. It will grow in 4 turns, and there is no improved tile for the new worker to move to. Better to work here than mine the colony outside Ulundi.

Courthouse in Babylon: I can accept that one. It will be put to good use.

And a reminder: If anyone disagrees with something like the FP in Zimbabwe, they are not "forced" to accept the previous player's wishes. (Although you should always be able to back up a change with a good reason. ) If need be, take a break and come here to ask, "hey, I was thinking about such-and-such. Is it a good idea?" After all, this is a Training Day Game, and you're here to learn. In a regular SG, you would just be expected to lay out you reasoning in your writeup, and be prepared for the slings and arrows of your fellow players.

Well, that's my take on this turn. Archer_007, you're up.

 

[Padma]

Archer! You're too quick!

Remember, this is a Training Day Game! Don't Play until the Critique is done and you're told to continue!

I will look at it tomorrow.

 

[stwils]

BobtheBuilder,

I downloaded archer's save and mine is 3000bc also! It's our game, but it's not where we are now.

Could Archer have sent us an old save by mistake?

stwils

 

[Padma]

Not a lot of detail in the write-up, so there's not a lot I can say until I download the save. On the surface, at least, it looks like a pretty good turn.

One comment about the Pyramids, though. It's 30 AD and nobody has built them yet?! Okay, tech goes slower in Chieftain, especially if the civs don't have contact to trade heavily. But be prepared to switch to something else, if another civ (that we don't know) is already within a few turns of completion.

I am always leery of building Ancient Age Wonders, just because while we are busy settling and consolidating, *somebody* out there in the darkness always seems to start their construction, usually at serious cost to their civ's development. And they always seem to manage to complete it a turn or two before we can.

But your logic is impeccable. IF we can get it, we sell our granaries and let the Pyramids do the trick for free. That's the kind of thinking we are looking for. So long as we don't get into the pattern of thinking that any given Wonder is "necessary" for survival.

I will look at the save this evening (I hope).

 

[stwils]

Padma, in your comments about rwprice's game you mention again about not chopping forests while building a Wonder. Could you elaborate? Would this also apply to clearing jungles? I never know what to do with forests or jungles unless I just road them.

Another question. How many temples do we need? One per city?

I am trying to digest Cracker's article. But to tell you the truth, I am struggling with it as I am as unanalytical as anyone can be. Also his new update (comments on forests and jungles) will not be available until Sept. 15, too late for "my turn."

I am in big need of a crash course in workers, terrain, and Wonders...

And by the way, if you get archer's game to download in 30 AD instead of 3000BC please let me know how you did it.

stwils

 

[Padma]

Forests, when cut down (the first time only) provide 10 shields of production to the nearest city. This makes them very useful for a "small hurry". (?)

An early exploit involved building lots of workers, then using some to chop a forest in one turn gaining the 10 shields, and then the rest of the workers would replant the forest the same turn. Lather, rinse, repeat. A forestry farm cranking 10 shields per turn (or 20 or more if you had the workers) was too unbalancing, so Firaxis changed it in one of the patches: only the first time you harvest a forest do you get the shields.

Wonders, however, are problematic. They must be built with "pure" production. That is, none of the shields that go to Wonder production can come from forestry, or unit disbanding. Which means that we gained zero shield benefit from cutting down the forest outside Persepolis. We cleared the land, and collected all the timber into a giant pile and had a huge bonfire. So unless we really needed that tile cleared right now, the workers' turns were wasted, and the 10-shield extra output was wasted.

We are playing Chieftain (I seem to keep saying that ) so we can get away with considerable , but if one wants to move up the ladder of levels, one has to pay attention to these things.

Jungles don't provide the same bonus shields. The reason for clearing them is to get at the useable terrain underneath, and to reduce the risk of disease.