Cuirassier Breakouts

[Mantic0re]

I'm finding myself a little boxed in lately (Monarch Difficulty) and I'm trying to smooth the break-out process.

I'm finding it fairly easy to take Military Tradition with Liberalism but I'm facing a minor problem (or Chemistry if trading partners cooperate; I've not managed to Lib Steel yet on this difficulty).


1. Taj Mahal is sooooo tempting. The tech lead means I've got a headstart on building it and the wonder would really help my relatively poor production. I've not decided if it is the best move when I also need to be spamming units to leverage my tech lead. (note: I can't seem to finish the build before I can start building Cuirassiers) Does the Taj Mahal aid a military break-out or distract and hinder war prep?


2. Pacificsm / Caste System is a relatively low hammer configuration which leaves barracks, stables, often a forge, and AP buildings (usually skip these) to whip up before unit-spamming. This narrows my window of opportunity considerably. I feel like I need the production boost and can't skip forges (they improve whips iirc). Putting stables everywhere delays my initial DoW but seems to extend the usefulness of my units. This is really a timing issue; how many of these delays can I safely afford? (how do you usually play this issue out?)


3. These timing issues get easier to handle when AI's war with each other. Problem I'm having is I rarely have the tech (or need to hold it to guarantee Lib) and I often have to Declare first (can backfire) to get an AI to join me. Are there any tricks to inciting war other than numerous reloads?

 

[strijder20]

Taj Mahal sure helps, because it's just awesome. Hah. If you've got a good HE site, it will also be able to build Cuirassiers in 2 or even 1 turns, making whipping unwanted.

I've never used CS and barely used Pacifism, which shows how much of a noob I am, but it's possible to get enough GS's (3 or preferably 4) without them though. Spiritual is of course the best way to deal with that problem.

Well, getting AIs up to Friendly (religious block) will ensure you can bribe them against enemies they want to go to war with. After that, the AIs will be more willing to declare on those who are already at war. As for trade fodder: check your foreign advisor. If there is a tech you don't have a monopoly on anymore, use it for trade fodder. If no AI has either Philo or Education and your halfway through lib, use one of those two.
By the way, why would you want the AI to join you? My cuir wars usually last 5-10 turns, which is sometimes not even enough for the AI to get it's SoD to a city.

 

[DMOC]

1. Taj Mahal is sooooo tempting. The tech lead means I've got a headstart on building it and the wonder would really help my relatively poor production. I've not decided if it is the best move when I also need to be spamming units to leverage my tech lead. (note: I can't seem to finish the build before I can start building Cuirassiers) Does the Taj Mahal aid a military break-out or distract and hinder war prep?

In general, I try to build the Taj. But if making cuirassiers and using them to conquer enemies would give you more of a benefit than building the Taj, then skip the wonder. I would definitely build it if I had marble, but if not, consider skipping it. You have to be the judge on the quality of your opponents' land and military and how much you can produce.

2. Pacificsm / Caste System is a relatively low hammer configuration which leaves barracks, stables, often a forge, and AP buildings (usually skip these) to whip up before unit-spamming. This narrows my window of opportunity considerably. I feel like I need the production boost and can't skip forges (they improve whips iirc). Putting stables everywhere delays my initial DoW but seems to extend the usefulness of my units. This is really a timing issue; how many of these delays can I safely afford? (how do you usually play this issue out?)

Then try to minimize the time you spend in Pacifism and Caste System. You can spend a quick 5-10 turns in those two civics and rush a Great Scientist (or more if you've planned it well) by working at least 5 scientists in a city, and then switch back to Slavery.

3. These timing issues get easier to handle when AI's war with each other. Problem I'm having is I rarely have the tech (or need to hold it to guarantee Lib) and I often have to Declare first (can backfire) to get an AI to join me. Are there any tricks to inciting war other than numerous reloads?

The first point here is a often-used feature: bribing other AI's to war with each other. This doesn't have to happen during Liberalism, since you can bulb Philosophy with a Great Scientist extremely early and use that as bait. Also, I'd seriously advise against the numerous reloads.

I'd be happy to provide more detailed feedback in an in-game situation.

 

[CaF]

I know that Taj/Cuirassier problem, hehe. Follow the advice of DMOC, it is very good. I would just like to add something here:

This is really a timing issue; how many of these delays can I safely afford? (how do you usually play this issue out?)

You should test that a bit. As long as you don't start your first war against a civ that is either PRO or AGG and has grenades, you should do fine. If you run up against grenades, you should at least have 2 vassals by now and move on. If they show up with Rifles, well... Flanking 2... and I hope you are close to domination already!

 

[capnvonbaron]

Keep in mind, too, that all games are not created equal. Just because ppl talk about Lib'ing rifling or steel, doesn't mean it happens every game. You get a game where Mansa, Willem and Zara pop up on a secluded continent and form a happy hindu lovefest, you're going to be lucky to even get lib by direct beeline. So don't get discouraged if you have problems there.

On horse war, you don't really *need* stables persay. Running theo or vassalage nets the same results without all the hammer expense. Also as Strijder hints at, make sure you get a good HE city up and running, that city will be making almost all your non-whipped units. Nationalism is a good bet if you have a large population -- use the draft extensively. Draft makes even the most worthless, lowest-hammer cities produce like mad!

What speed are you playing on? Honestly I prefer cannons on epic/marathon speed. They are the great equalizer IMO. They make good stack protection as well as quickly stripping defense and typically you won't have to suicide many to crack even the toughest defenders. Normal speed and below Curis are probably the better bet though.

 

[Mantic0re]

I prefer to play normal speed. I'm don't feel confident with 2-move tactics but I love how fast things get where I need them. Cannon stacks seem to take forever to actually get in position to attack. The trade off is I can't draft horse units so I'm forced to play a bit differently. I'm hoping to improve my mounted combat to minimize losses.

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

There really is no way to get better at mounted combat and lose less units. Cannon wars are about not losing units, while Cuirs you are going to lose at least 1 unit for every 3 you kill.

 

[Mantic0re]

good point. I will never compare to guys like TMIT and AbsoluteZero but they are far more efficient with it than I am. It's not so much the losses as the choice of targets and the movement patterns behind enemy lines. In a cannon war I'd almost prefer the city I'm attacking have all the AI units in it to maximize Collateral damage but a mounted war is about dancing around the main SoD and taking the softer cities instead.

If the end goal is a capitulation it doesn't matter how I get +40 war success

 

[cseanny]

I prefer to play normal speed. I'm don't feel confident with 2-move tactics but I love how fast things get where I need them. Cannon stacks seem to take forever to actually get in position to attack. The trade off is I can't draft horse units so I'm forced to play a bit differently. I'm hoping to improve my mounted combat to minimize losses.

If you reach engineering at a reasonable date then by the time your on to your 2nd victim most of your Trebs will already be CRIII (assuming you've built the SWEPaya) which is pretty brutal. On Immortal, quite often I turn the research slider off once I've got a combination of Currency/Engineering/CS/Guilds. With highly promoted Knight/Phant/Trebs/Cats(nice for collateral vs non-city units) you can dominate the map even in the face of GPunits.......so long as you win before they get Infantry or a lot of Cav.

 

[georgjorge]

I'd really like to have success with Cuirassiers but I can't. In my ongoing quest for my first Deity win, a number of times it went the same way: I was ahead in tech, managed to Lib Nationalism or even Military Tradition, and quickly made 20-25 Curs through wipping or upgrading Horse Archers with a Great Merchant. I could never get an attack going before 1000 AD though, try as I might*. I made my attack, took some cities, and then just couldn't take any more because I was losing too many Curs to Pikemen/Elephants behind 80% culture. My opponent was producing just as much units as me (I usually had 5 or 6 cities to start with) and not losing much more. While this was happening, everyone else just went crazy with techs and got to Rifles or whatever, and I still didn't have enough cities to outproduce them. So I went back to using Siege + whatever, which seem to give a much better kill ratio. Maybe I AM missing some basic mounted tactics...

Having said that, a favorite "tactic" with mounted is to leave one or two bad cities close to my border alone. The AI keeps sending units in stacks of one or two towards the city to reinforce it, allowing you to take them out one by one on open ground with 2 movement.



* I've looked at some of the old Kossin threads, and the main difference seems to be that I can get about the same beakers by 1 AD, but his research doubles or triples over the next centuries, which I just am unable to provide...

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

I'd really like to have success with Cuirassiers but I can't. In my ongoing quest for my first Deity win, a number of times it went the same way: I was ahead in tech, managed to Lib Nationalism or even Military Tradition, and quickly made 20-25 Curs through wipping or upgrading Horse Archers with a Great Merchant. I could never get an attack going before 1000 AD though, try as I might*. I made my attack, took some cities, and then just couldn't take any more because I was losing too many Curs to Pikemen/Elephants behind 80% culture. My opponent was producing just as much units as me (I usually had 5 or 6 cities to start with) and not losing much more. While this was happening, everyone else just went crazy with techs and got to Rifles or whatever, and I still didn't have enough cities to outproduce them. So I went back to using Siege + whatever, which seem to give a much better kill ratio. Maybe I AM missing some basic mounted tactics...

Having said that, a favorite "tactic" with mounted is to leave one or two bad cities close to my border alone. The AI keeps sending units in stacks of one or two towards the city to reinforce it, allowing you to take them out one by one on open ground with 2 movement.



* I've looked at some of the old Kossin threads, and the main difference seems to be that I can get about the same beakers by 1 AD, but his research doubles or triples over the next centuries, which I just am unable to provide...

You don't tech broker enough.