TruePurple
Civ wanna B
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So you built a worker then a settler? I question the value of a early city without trade route.
First moves and getting those huts.
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@TruePurple
Yes settler right after worker, you can see that on my turn 21 picture. Re: trade route, yes it is nice to have, but having the city earlier even without trade route is worth it since fish produces 2 commerce and city upkeep is only 1 gold. Not to mention it will grow earlier and start producing things with whipping for example.
Here's fishing first on turn 32. Let me know how that compares to yours.
Yes settler right after worker, you can see that on my turn 21 picture. Re: trade route, yes it is nice to have, but having the city earlier even without trade route is worth it since fish produces 2 commerce and city upkeep is only 1 gold. Not to mention it will grow earlier and start producing things with whipping for example.
Here's fishing first on turn 32. Let me know how that compares to yours.
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TruePurple
Civ wanna B
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How long for a third city on the island? I managed at turn 49 (actual placement) I declined whiping to make it faster as I didn't want to over whip and have morale problems, but I could have probably gotten that third city a turn or two earlier.
A few rounds I wasn't sure what to produce, like the city was going to grow next turn or something so not a worker or settler, I ended up building barracks during this time, maybe a mistake?
I think with whipping it should always be at least 2 pop whip each time, if not more. Since the unhappiness increases per the time, not per the population loss, which required some careful planning.
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The pig tile only becomes available on turn 50 when the capital grows, and as you can see in @sampsa's screenshot he already had two workers there ready to make the pasture. The island city can be settled a bit earlier than that though, because (I think) it creates 4 commerce / turn just from being there (the two older cities get a bonus +1 commerce for trading with island city instead of with each other, and the island city gets a +2 trade route).
I think we probably want a 2nd worker before a 3rd city, and we need a galley to bring the settler. And perhaps 2 more warriors to fogbust north and west of capital.
I didn't try planning anything past turn 32 though, and since I was just quickly testing the opening I didn't scout the map, fogbust, etc.
If you have truly nothing useful to build, putting the hammers in a barracks makes sense. (It could also be in an unit, but as you probably noticed you lose hammers if you pause the production for more than 10 turns. For buildings it's 50 turns.)
Earlier I mentioned the option to chop a lighthouse, but that's probably not optimal. Forest chops should be prioritized for settler and worker production, since the fewer turns the settlers and workers are being produced, the fewer turns the city stops growing. When the city is growing you can produce the lighthouse, galley, units for fogbusting/scouting, etc.
Yes that's correct. 1 pop whips can happen early in the game (from 2 to 1 pop) if needed but after that it's not efficient.
TruePurple
Civ wanna B
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For what purpose? To manically chop down all forests so we have no way to rush LH? I thought the whole idea was to get new sources of resources? Delaying getting a third city puts us further "behind".
Third island city should build monument anyway. Only way that city is going to be able to access the fish is via getting to level 2 culure and we want that done Asap. And as you say earlier city on island means sooner increase in trade. Thus it can be much sooner. Though I don't think you do need the capitals culture to grow a second time to get access to that pig. You get access to it earlier with the culture fusion. But again we don't need the pig or the fish to make a third city useful.
Not hard to chop or whip a galley or settler.
Also it's a fine thing to talk about fog busting when you all seem to have decided building a warrior at first is no good. I think I should build a warrior first, I tried it not building a warrior at first for better comparison but I think it's needed. Along with a scout a bit latter to take huts
Well we do want a LH in capital ASAP, one way could be to whip something else for 2 pop and let the overflow go to LH.
Well since you didn't try it my way and you aren't even trying it fully the other way for real comparison, that makes it somewhat useless for comparing. I understand not scouting or fogbusting for the test, but only that much is extremely inadequate for testing. You should have tried it my way if you were only going to do it one way. With only this much we really can't use your game for our analysis much.
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jnebbe
Prince
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this whole discussion looks stupid because trying to compare different approaches on such a short timeframe is pointless. there's tradeoffs with different approaches but which one is better depends on how good of a position you'd be in if you played on to say 1AD. I could build only settlers and have 4 cities by t50 but obviously they would be crap cities with no improvements and zero economy and would be in a far worse position by 1AD than if i just played normally
@TruePurple
What did I not try your way?
I did both fishing first and BW first to turn 32 and at that point the two positions were very similar and I described the differences.
Maybe your build order in fishing first was different than mine, then let me know.
What did I not try your way?
I did both fishing first and BW first to turn 32 and at that point the two positions were very similar and I described the differences.
Maybe your build order in fishing first was different than mine, then let me know.
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Yes, absolutely the question needs to be narrowed down in ordered to do a comparison on a short timeframe. Here, @sampsa presented a position on turn 50 and described briefly his opening. Then @TruePurple suggested that going Fishing first to work those clams earlier could result in the 2nd city as fast and an economic advantage due to the commerce from the clams. Everyone kind of agreed on the short term priorities (working those seafood tiles, settling that 2nd city, reaching Sailing as th 3rd tech). The reason I stopped at turn 32 is given how similar the two positions were. In one case City 1 had reached pop 3, sailing was just finished and settler was almost done. In the other case City 1 was almost pop 3 (with the same improved tiles) and sailing was almost finished, but city 2 was already there with fish improved.
And after that point the possible paths diverge again as we decide how to proritize 3rd city vs. great lighthouse vs. something else? So continuing would not necessarily have shed more light on the earlier decisions, because those new decisions would have more impact.
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On a less sea-oriented game we would probably already have more workers due to more land improvements, need for roads to connect cities, etc. Even there though, 1 worker by the time we get 3 cities feels insufficient. There's a balance between settling new cities and improving tiles in existing cities that they can work as they grow. If we're going Hunting-AH next there is a fur camp that can be built, a pig mine to convert to pasture, and of course that pig in city 3. In the meantime we can build more mines (not the greatest tiles but better than an unimproved one if the city grows to use them), or we can "pre-chop" the forests in preparation for GLH wonder later.
One thing with workers too is that sometimes there is burst of work, like to improve a new city or to rush a wonder, and then there are lulls. It's good to have enough workers ready for the burst (like how @sampsa is getting 2 workers to finish that pasture 2 turns earlier for city 3, since pigs is such a good growth tile). During the lulls the pre-chopping mentioned above in an option... just to be clear, by that we mean that you start chopping a forest but tell the worker to stop on the 2nd turn of chopping, not let it chop it on the 3rd turn. BUG-BULL mod does it automatically which is nice, it always stops your workers so you can decide if you want the chop now or not.
The monument takes 10 turn to expand borders, so it would need to be built by turn 39 to get the pigs before the capital border gets them, which means the city needs to be settled a few turns earlier (even if you're helping the monument with a chop). It's not impossible if you prioritize it enough, but definitely needs to be very rushed, and then need to figure out what else is left behind in that rush.
In a less sea-focused game, usually after the worker you let your city grow by building 1 or more warriors. Here we were growing while building boats. On the other hand more sea means less land tiles to fogbust.
Are you asking why I'm suddenly suggesting fogbusting units as a priority if they weren't earlier? Part of it is because it feels like we got the early game priorities done (working those good seafood tiles, settling a 2nd city, getting a good economic start with those seafood tiles and trade routes). But it's also partly about the time when barbarians become a threat, mostly when they can enter your culture. That happens when the average number of cities by player reaches 3 (https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/when-do-barbarian-units-enter-cultural-borders.299483/). On deity the AI start with a 2nd settler, and that point is reached very fast, usually around turn 40. On immortal, if the player can get 3 cities before T50, the AI probably won't be any faster. Of course, you need your perimeter to be secured earlier than that turn where they become dangerous, so I am considering it at 32 (Again if it were more a sea map we would have more warriors earlier.)
(One thing though is that it's always good to fogbust the location of your planned next city, even the 2nd one, because you don't want a barbarian unit or worst a barbarian city to spawn there. So here I parked my initial warrior south of capital to cover that area. I could have scouted a little bit more but I want to come back to that location not too late.)
Fogbusting also doesn't guarantee the units won't come for your cities. They can kill you fogbusting unit or sometimes walk past it. I see @sampsa teched Archery after Hunting-AH. I assume that's because he saw there was no horse nor copper, and that there was no AI nearby (which could have fogbusted or killed barbarians spawning between us), in which case having archers available to be whipped/chopped in a hurry provides greater safety.
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Re: getting warriors and scouts earlier for the huts. We're getting back to the initial subject of the thread. Since you tried the way without them, you could try now with warrior-scout earlier. (I'm suggesting you try since you appear to have experience on that playstyle and presumably can get the most of a map with huts.) You can see how many extra huts you get. Then however you would have to consider the probability of each thing that a hut could give to compare with the other scenario. What I mean is that if you get just a map from the hut, well you had 16% chance of getting a tech (with scout), so the comparison should take into account different outcomes and not just the particular dice roll you got.
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TruePurple
Civ wanna B
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Sorry I missed your post 102, I will examine it, that will take some time. I see though you said in the other way your city was at pop2 at turn 32, which is technically incorrect.
Barb huts have a good chance of giving gold, 25%, seems to be usually around 30-40g with a minimum of 25 or so, though for some reason in this save if I get it with culture I always get ~27g or so. gold is the same as tech this early in the game, just with a delay.
You can also get warrior or scout which can be used for fog busting or exploring.
Even experience is a useful reward, though it's the lesser one for sure. Suffice to say taking a hut with a scout even at immortal level is highly likely to give something good.
Do barbs kill beasts and visa versa? Anyway early warrior and scout also are good for exploring, knowing the landscape and training them on beasts which seem to disappear after awhile. Woodland 2 on a warrior or scout and it can move two tiles for much of the early map.
In my experience I can usually get 3-4 barb huts if I am quick.
Another benefit to this exploring is getting AI contacts for tech trading which is very powerful sometimes. Also earlier open borders and resource trading means better trade income and better relations. It seems more time with open borders and trade equals AI liking you more, which is why I usually accept open borders as soon as I can and do trades that have no benefit or drawback.
TruePurple
Civ wanna B
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One thing is, I need to make a detour to get Hunting after Fish-BW, but it also helps me by allowing a camp on the fur as well as a scout. I was thinking roading after Sailing to connect up the fur for happiness and to allow workers to road up to future city spots and generally be more efficient.
That particular 2nd city is good, because it can work a strong tile immediately. It is
-neutral, which means that it's winning 5
1
per turn. You should try to found 2nd city as fast as you can, especially if it has better tiles than you have available at the capital.Don't remember, but it can be deducted from the screenshot. Pretty sure it's T47. 4th city will be T55. My capital is size 4 so I certainly didn't whip.
Clearly fishing first will never catch up in speed of expansion and your argument that fishing first is ahead in
might also not be true, because more cities generate more .If you bothered to take a look at my screenshot, you'd see that I still have 6 capital forest left. And yes I have 2 workers. I think a lot can be improved in my sloppy play anyway, like rather put worker turns into improving fur than pasturing pigs.
Like I said, my path was BW-fishing-sailing-hunting-AH-archery-(masonry). Not sure if archery is necessary, but it's safe. I would never waste
on a scout. Definitely get GLH before wheel.TruePurple
Civ wanna B
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What is the exact research point difference in your two tries?
Nobody is trying to get 4 cities as fast as they can though. We are comparing reasonable play to reasonable play with different paths and I'm surprised if you think we are doing something else. You don't need to play until 1AD to see that one play is clearly better than the other. Honestly I don't need to play at all, experience and common sense suffices.
@TruePurple https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/work-boat-first-start-monarch-buffy.684626/ here you can see circumstances where I think going boat first is the correct play.
BW first was 155/162 into Sailing on turn 32. Fishing first finished sailing and has 1 overflow into Hunting, so 163/162, for a difference of 8 research.
2 turns later (turn 34) they are equal at 29/65 hunting. Why? Fishing first has 13 research / turn as you can see in my screenshot, BW first has 16 research / turn (2 extra from fish and 1 extra from city 2 itself), and the next turn with sailing trade routes it's 18 / turn (+1 in each city). So +3 and +5 makes up the difference in 2 turns. **
Of course for BW first we did spend into the gold we got from the hut, we are thus 8 gold behind on turn 32 due to city upkeep for the second city, and 10 gold behind on turn 34. So you could take that as the overall commerce difference (10). BW has one more turn with more commerce to reduce that difference to 5, and then on turn 35 city 2 is settled in both games so the commerce generated each turn is identical.
** It's actually a bit more complicated than that, because the research applied to the tech is not exactly the number of research points (beakers) you see next to your slider on the top right. It's different based on prerequisites in the tech tree and having met other civilizations that have the tech. See details here: https://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/game-mechanics/technology-research-explained/ . My simple calculation above probably matches what we observe in game, it must be then that the more complex factors are the same or cancel out between the two gmes.
Thanks for the encouragement! I learned a lot from these forums which allowed me to move from struggling on monarch to be able to consistenly win on immortal, your guide in particular was very helpful to develop good heuristics for early game decisions. So I'm hoping to pay it forward.
From the screenshots BW first is way ahead. You have a second city with a workboat well before fishing route has completed it's first settler. 5-6 turns? The early 2f3H makes worker first a must. That is a huge boost for settler production. 3rd city maybe be a few turns difference but BW approach will get pigs up quicker too. You can't claim the pigs by settling on the island plains hill. Unless someone posts a save to suggest otherwise there is little point arguing the above.
A few beakers difference in science is meaningless. If this approch gets you 3-4 cities and GLH sooner then that will be a massive difference come 1ad. 2nd city acts as a good fog buster too. The fishing first route will always be in catchup mode. 4F resources without LH.
It's very unlikely a deity player like Sampsa would be wrong here. He has been on this forum longer than me. After 18 or so years you tend to know the game and what will and won't work. Very few players on here will beat his gameplay.
An exploring workboat will do well here. From what I have seen huts here are a distraction. If you get lucky a free tech/gold. Unlucky warrior killed by 2/4 barb warriors from first hut. You won't learn immortal by relying on free techs from huts. At best 3-4 huts. Just too risky with warriors on immortal level unless you are reloading bad rolls. If you want late game techs that would need islands the AI can't reach.
A few beakers difference in science is meaningless. If this approch gets you 3-4 cities and GLH sooner then that will be a massive difference come 1ad. 2nd city acts as a good fog buster too. The fishing first route will always be in catchup mode. 4F resources without LH.
It's very unlikely a deity player like Sampsa would be wrong here. He has been on this forum longer than me. After 18 or so years you tend to know the game and what will and won't work. Very few players on here will beat his gameplay.
An exploring workboat will do well here. From what I have seen huts here are a distraction. If you get lucky a free tech/gold. Unlucky warrior killed by 2/4 barb warriors from first hut. You won't learn immortal by relying on free techs from huts. At best 3-4 huts. Just too risky with warriors on immortal level unless you are reloading bad rolls. If you want late game techs that would need islands the AI can't reach.
pigswill
fly (one day)
From reading through above posts BW first appears stronger but maybe not so obviously stronger that your're going to convince TruePurple to change hir gameplay. It also appears that TruePurple hasn't convinced anyone that Fishing first is stronger. Maybe diminishing marginal returns in continuing this debate.
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