Cultural Diffusion

[Gedemon]

Please excuse me if someone already mentionned it, but, even if I really enjoyed this mod, I had a troublesome problem : when I capture a city in an ennemy territory, I can't keep any territory between the city and the rest of my territory. Do you see what I mean ? Sorry if it isn't very clear.

Yep, that's what's delaying a bit my next release, I'm thinking on how to handle that.

I've some options in mind :

- remove city ownership of tiles completly, keeping just player ownership, and when a city is conquered, change the culture level of the city and first ring so that the conqueror do not lost the tiles from culture flipping in the following turns (to balance with the flipping % value)

- same has above, but keeping city ownership of tiles, and give the cultural change to all tile owned by this city, not just the first ring.

- add a "assimilation" option to the player when conquering a city, with different levels : it will take a part of the tile(s) culture value of the previous civ, and exchange it with same culture value from cities of the conquering civ. simple example : you already have 2 cities with a culture level of 1000 and 2000 for your civ. you take a city with a culture level of 800 from another civ, your choice is to assimilate half of the culture, then you'll have 400/400 in the new city and 800/200 and 1800/200 in your old cities


@Seek : dev version is much slower, but I want to add one of the above before next release

 

[Sneaks]

Hmm, I really would be curious about how assimilation would work. I am leaning towards city ownership, simply to stop awkward empire borders that snake in and out of each other.

 

[zambies]

simply to stop awkward empire borders that snake in and out of each other.

This may just be the insane history/map buff in my talking, but I think that'd be the best part of this mod. How could you not want to recreate something like the Holy Roman Empire?

 

[Sneaks]

I would love it if the AI understood that standing in a tile that it belongs is smarter than standing in an enemy Oligarchy tile, etc.

 

[zambies]

I would love it if the AI understood that standing in a tile that it belongs is smarter than standing in an enemy Oligarchy tile, etc.

True.

 

[Seek]

@Seek : dev version is much slower, but I want to add one of the above before next release

I'm happy you haven't abandoned it.

 

[PlyPlay665]

I am playing this mod, and I really like it! However, I have a problem to mention, I started a new map that had 22 Civs but since I have no current Custom Civs, I am France, and there is another France. Well, a few turns in, and my France took over all the lands outside of France2's City even though we weren't close to each other. If that makes any sense..
Basically, if you have two of the same Civ, the game will read one of the Civ's land as the others.

 

[Dragalex]

Yep, that's what's delaying a bit my next release, I'm thinking on how to handle that.

I've some options in mind :

- remove city ownership of tiles completly, keeping just player ownership, and when a city is conquered, change the culture level of the city and first ring so that the conqueror do not lost the tiles from culture flipping in the following turns (to balance with the flipping % value)

- same has above, but keeping city ownership of tiles, and give the cultural change to all tile owned by this city, not just the first ring.

- add a "assimilation" option to the player when conquering a city, with different levels : it will take a part of the tile(s) culture value of the previous civ, and exchange it with same culture value from cities of the conquering civ. simple example : you already have 2 cities with a culture level of 1000 and 2000 for your civ. you take a city with a culture level of 800 from another civ, your choice is to assimilate half of the culture, then you'll have 400/400 in the new city and 800/200 and 1800/200 in your old cities

I really enjoy the second option. Otherwise, it's becoming too difficult to conquer and own the ennemy territory.
You could also, if it's possible, give the fights on a tile a cultural impact : the one who wins the fights wins furthermore some influence on the tile. It could be useful. And a war could let you acquire some more territory without any new conquered cities. Do you see what I mean ?

Oh, I see you're from France. Don't you think we should speak French ?

Nevertheless, congratulations again. I love this mod.

 

[The Loot]

Hey Gedemon, good news! The mod seems to be working after all. I think I just wasn't giving it enough time or paying close enough attention earlier.

Questions and Suggestions:

Q: Is city flipping completely disabled in the current version? I tried getting rid of the dashes in front of the City Flipping line, but I didn't see any effect.

Q: How exactly is culture spread/generation calculated?

S: Perhaps military units should prevent tiles/cities from flipping, as long as they're already owned by the respective Civ; a sort-of "Martial Law" mechanic. That way you have to garrison a captured city so it doesn't flip right back to the previous owner.

S: When it comes to captured cities, a city in revolt shouldn't generate culture.

Looking forward to more updates!

 

[Sneaks]

Hey Gedemon, good news! The mod seems to be working after all. I think I just wasn't giving it enough time or paying close enough attention earlier.

Questions and Suggestions:

Q: Is city flipping completely disabled in the current version? I tried getting rid of the dashes in front of the City Flipping line, but I didn't see any effect.

Q: How exactly is culture spread/generation calculated?

S: Perhaps military units should prevent tiles/cities from flipping, as long as they're already owned by the respective Civ; a sort-of "Martial Law" mechanic. That way you have to garrison a captured city so it doesn't flip right back to the previous owner.

S: When it comes to captured cities, a city in revolt shouldn't generate culture.

Looking forward to more updates!

I can answer one of these:
City flipping has no code behind it yet, so it is not yet implemented.

As for the no culture in a revolt city, there is a fine line to be drawn. The larger the city, the longer the revolt AND the more tiles it would need to work. For medium to large cities, this would permanently equate revolt with starvation due to plot flipping during the revolt period. I would be worried with any mechanic that could cause a city to "kill itself".

 

[Gedemon]

I am playing this mod, and I really like it! However, I have a problem to mention, I started a new map that had 22 Civs but since I have no current Custom Civs, I am France, and there is another France. Well, a few turns in, and my France took over all the lands outside of France2's City even though we weren't close to each other. If that makes any sense..
Basically, if you have two of the same Civ, the game will read one of the Civ's land as the others.

Yes, I see the problem here, and as a part of a bigger mod, I didn't start working on this for vanilla civ, I use a different culture ID than the player ID, and to convert it as a stand alone mod, it was easier to use civ type as an ID for culture.

I'm affraid that I won't be able to fix it (soon), because I'll need to convert this back in my main mod project once the culture diffusion test is done.

I really enjoy the second option. Otherwise, it's becoming too difficult to conquer and own the ennemy territory.
You could also, if it's possible, give the fights on a tile a cultural impact : the one who wins the fights wins furthermore some influence on the tile. It could be useful. And a war could let you acquire some more territory without any new conquered cities. Do you see what I mean ?

Oh, I see you're from France. Don't you think we should speak French ?

Nevertheless, congratulations again. I love this mod.

After thoughts, I think I'm going to do it the simple way and go for the second option.

I'm not sure about annexing tiles with culture from combat, but combining your's and The Loot suggestions, I'm thinking of allowing tile flipping only when a military units is on it and there's a state of war between the tile owner and the civ wanting to flip the tile...

Hey Gedemon, good news! The mod seems to be working after all. I think I just wasn't giving it enough time or paying close enough attention earlier.

Questions and Suggestions:

Q: Is city flipping completely disabled in the current version? I tried getting rid of the dashes in front of the City Flipping line, but I didn't see any effect.

Q: How exactly is culture spread/generation calculated?

S: Perhaps military units should prevent tiles/cities from flipping, as long as they're already owned by the respective Civ; a sort-of "Martial Law" mechanic. That way you have to garrison a captured city so it doesn't flip right back to the previous owner.

S: When it comes to captured cities, a city in revolt shouldn't generate culture.

Looking forward to more updates!

Sneaks has already answered the first question, btw, does anyone testing the mod has found a case when a city flipping from culture should happen ? (and not after conquest)


for the second, see GetCityCulturalOutput and DiffuseCulture functions in CultureFunctions.lua. You can set bDebugOutput to true in those function to get the output in the console or the lua.log if available.

I can answer one of these:
City flipping has no code behind it yet, so it is not yet implemented.

As for the no culture in a revolt city, there is a fine line to be drawn. The larger the city, the longer the revolt AND the more tiles it would need to work. For medium to large cities, this would permanently equate revolt with starvation due to plot flipping during the revolt period. I would be worried with any mechanic that could cause a city to "kill itself".

Yes, and I take note of that also in case of cultural city flipping.

 

[dwlenkne]

I love the Cultural Diffusion, but I did run into an issue with Tile Flipping. I was allied to a CS, and at war with an AI that shared a common border with the CS. I was annexing cities as I went, and when I captured (and annexed) the last city, all of the tiles from the AI flipped to the CS, just leaving me with the cities...

So, I had a number of starving cities, and I had to take out the CS to feed them.

 

[Gedemon]

I love the Cultural Diffusion, but I did run into an issue with Tile Flipping. I was allied to a CS, and at war with an AI that shared a common border with the CS. I was annexing cities as I went, and when I captured (and annexed) the last city, all of the tiles from the AI flipped to the CS, just leaving me with the cities...

So, I had a number of starving cities, and I had to take out the CS to feed them.

The CS had the most culture on those plots ?

if yes, then this should be fixed when I'll finish the code to handle the city conquest.

 

[dwlenkne]

Many Thanks for the hard work! Until then, I have the option of keeping the CS as an ally, or playing 'Whack-a-Mole' if he hasn't been a very good ally.

 

[eraofdiversion]

This is exactly what I've been looking for ,keep up the great work!!!!!

 

[orlanth]

This is a great idea for a mod!

With regards to culture and city-flipping, one change I've always wanted to see is instead of always using the "puppet" or "conquered" status for conquered cities, bring back the cityscreen % culture bar feature from Civ4 so that cities themselves (rather than just tiles) can have a certain percentage of culture from several civs. Happiness and other penalties would depend on how much culture you generated in the city compared to your opponent.

This way, a primitive city conquered early on where you invested in new Temples etc to convert the populace could be gradually assimilated entirely to your culture, instead of forever locked in "puppet" status which seems frustrating and unrealistic.

This would also open up a lot of cool possibilities, such as Policies that increase assimilation rate or reduce the effects of cultural differences. Or a Happiness penalty for being at war with a civ if a lot of your empire's citizens have adopted their culture.

 

[Gedemon]

This is a great idea for a mod!

With regards to culture and city-flipping, one change I've always wanted to see is instead of always using the "puppet" or "conquered" status for conquered cities, bring back the cityscreen % culture bar feature from Civ4 so that cities themselves (rather than just tiles) can have a certain percentage of culture from several civs. Happiness and other penalties would depend on how much culture you generated in the city compared to your opponent.

This way, a primitive city conquered early on where you invested in new Temples etc to convert the populace could be gradually assimilated entirely to your culture, instead of forever locked in "puppet" status which seems frustrating and unrealistic.

This would also open up a lot of cool possibilities, such as Policies that increase assimilation rate or reduce the effects of cultural differences. Or a Happiness penalty for being at war with a civ if a lot of your empire's citizens have adopted their culture.

The main reason I've started this mod is to have a base to work on revolt and empire stability... So yes, all those ideas are planned in the long term here


btw I'm beta testing the next release (it will handle city capture) in my current game, should be available tomorrow if everything goes well.

 

[Gedemon]

v0.4 is uploaded here and on the mod hub in game (the forum seems to have some problems at time of this post)

This version should handle city capture, please report any bugs...

Remember to edit the defines lua if you don't want to acquire tile automatically from culture (see first post).

 

[The Loot]

Sounds great, any update on city flipping?

 

[Gedemon]

Sounds great, any update on city flipping?

not yet, I need feedback on how it works with city capture first.

btw I've found a bug (tile flipping was occurring to early in some case), I'll post a fix very soon.