Culture (Unit + Quarter) Speculation Thread

[Jkchart]

Now that the first classical culture is revealed, I'll give it a go for mu classical age guess...

1. Aksum - Merchant
2. Carthage - Merchant
3. Gaul - Agrarian
4. Greece - Expansionist or Scientific
5. Han - Builder
6. Maurya - Aestethe
7. Mayan - Scientific
8. Rome - Militaristic
9. Persia - Expansionist
10. Suebi - Militaristic

This is probably very close.

I believe they said that there was a "Celts" culture though, which would eliminate Gaul. And if anyone remembers correctly... @Boris Gudenuf maybe you do...I thought they said they only had 3 Chinese cultures for the initial start and they were Zhou, Ming, and PRC? I'd be very happy to have Han though. If not, I would guess they might be Choson.

I like the thought of Suebi but I think it might be more broad than that (maybe Goths).

 

[Matthias Corvinus]

The Khmer are almost certainly confirmed for Medieval due to what we have seen in promotional images and screenshots. I don’t have any problem with ‘western centric’ naming conventions, either. A large majority of this game’s audience are from western countries and the terms for eras are relatively well known.

 

[Ondolindë]

I would love to see floating cities for the aztec quarter. While they were extremely gruesome in their conquests, they also had amazing architectural acomplishments and I wouldn’t mind them being shifted to a more economic civilization. I think that the Inca should be renaissance, with the country truly hit its peak in the early 1400s as it was wrapping up the unification of the Andes. I could see the Aztec being medieval as they seem to date back around that time period for pacing stake. Also, the pueblo would be an interesting civilization and could have unique desert bonuses. However, if the Inca are in and do not have terrace farms, my soul will pass onto the next realm.

Bolivia would also be an interesting choice for a fusion between western and native cultures.

Here are some ideas for quarters I pulled up with references:

Qollqa - Inca Storage House



Cholet - Bolivian House



Adobe Village - Pueblo



Bonus

Pueblo Ruins Wonder

I would love my country to be represented although we do share Incan heritage with Peru, of course.

As for the Cholet it is not a Bolivian typical house by any means. It is not common at all in Bolivia in general, rather a modern adaptation of particular cultural architectural tendency in a very, very particular and really tiny part of the country; even the Adobe based buildings, which one can definitely find in a larger geographical area with very strong indigenous ties to the Aymara, Quechua and maybe Incan cultures could not be a representation of what Bolivia is nor of the fusion you are talking about. Bolivia is truly a rather unresolved fusion of at least four main indigenous groups and Spanish influence, of course. If you asked me what Bolivia's Emblematic Quarter or Unti would be, it would be really hard to define just because of the forced melting pot it truly is. But you got me thinking.

The Incan Empire, on the other hand, however much conquest oriented and expansionist they were, has a very clear line of buildings, edifices and units that are truly representative, despite the fact that it conquered and absorbed other smaller civilizations and their particularities regionally. Unit wise, the Chasqui is not only recognizable, but absolutely central to what its society was all about, but of course it's not a military unit, unlike the Warak'aq found in Civ VI or the Kuraka's, for example. As for an emblematic quarter, the Tambo (Tanpu) would be a fun one to have which served as structure built for administrative (accounting offices), even economic ones in a way (storages of supplies, etc.) and military purposes (lodging, sort of temporary posts, etc.).

Another that I would love to finally see represented is the Tiwanaku Empire whose main ruins are found in La Paz, Bolivia. Another supposedly expansionist/agricultural empire too (not sure if truly militaristic like the Inca) which covered a portion of northern Chile, a portion of western Bolivia and the southern tip of Peru.

The Kalasasaya Temple could be it's emblematic quarter

 

[Matthias Corvinus]

I would love my country to be represented although we do share Incan heritage with Peru, of course.

As for the Cholet it is not a Bolivian typical house by any means. It is not common at all in Bolivia in general, rather a modern adaptation of particular cultural architectural tendency in a very, very particular and really tiny part of the country; even the Adobe based buildings, which one can definitely find in a larger geographical area with very strong indigenous ties to the Aymara, Quechua and maybe Incan cultures could not be a representation of what Bolivia is nor of the fusion you are talking about. Bolivia is truly a rather unresolved fusion of at least four main indigenous groups and Spanish influence, of course. If you asked me what Bolivia's Emblematic Quarter or Unti would be, it would be really hard to define just because of the forced melting pot it truly is. But you got me thinking.

The Incan Empire, on the other hand, however much conquest oriented and expansionist they were, has a very clear line of buildings, edifices and units that are truly representative, despite the fact that it conquered and absorbed other smaller civilizations and their particularities regionally. Unit wise, the Chasqui is not only recognizable, but absolutely central to what its society was all about, but of course it's not a military unit, unlike the Warak'aq found in Civ VI or the Kuraka's, for example. As for an emblematic quarter, the Tambo (Tanpu) would be a fun one to have which served as structure built for administrative (accounting offices), even economic ones in a way (storages of supplies, etc.) and military purposes (lodging, sort of temporary posts, etc.).

Another that I would love to finally see represented is the Tiwanaku Empire whose main ruins are found in La Paz, Bolivia. Another supposedly expansionist/agricultural empire too (not sure if truly militaristic like the Inca) which covered a portion of northern Chile, a portion of western Bolivia and the southern tip of Peru.

The Kalasasaya Temple could be it's emblematic quarter

View attachment 546451

The adobe buildings were meant to represent the pueblo, a tribe found in the southwestern US/Northern Mexico. I am not an expert on Bolivian architecture, but the Cholet popped out to me as they seemed like a distinct quarter that could easily make Bolivia distinguishable to players. If Bolivia did have a unit, I am sure that it would be some sort of recognizable military group, like the SEALS in the US or the Legions that Rome employee, although I can’t think of any that Bolivia could use.

 

[Matthias Corvinus]

Added a poll and changed title

 

[Ondolindë]

The adobe buildings were meant to represent the pueblo, a tribe found in the southwestern US/Northern Mexico. I am not an expert on Bolivian architecture, but the Cholet popped out to me as they seemed like a distinct quarter that could easily make Bolivia distinguishable to players. If Bolivia did have a unit, I am sure that it would be some sort of recognizable military group, like the SEALS in the US or the Legions that Rome employee, although I can’t think of any that Bolivia could use.

One comes to mind now, thanks!

Los Colorados de Bolivia

 

[Siptah]

@ehecatzin there‘s actually a civ on your list that I hope doesn’t appear: Carthage. I‘m all for being able to choose logical transitions such as Phoenicia -> Carthage, but I think these two would largely occupy the same niche and turn out too similar.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

@ehecatzin there‘s actually a civ on your list that I hope doesn’t appear: Carthage. I‘m all for being able to choose logical transitions such as Phoenicia -> Carthage, but I think these two would largely occupy the same niche and turn out too similar.

It may be the same niche, but it's different eras. They probably will have naval trade cultures in every era, so you can play the same strategy through the whole game if you like, without having to abstain from choosing.

 

[ehecatzin]

Good List, but, possibly because I just finished Beckwith's Empires of the Silk Road, the list appears to me to leave out all of central Asia, which during the Classical Era included and 'exported' such intriguing groups as the Sarmatians, Huns, Goths, Sogdians, Parthians (although those would overlap with the Persians), Hsung-Nu, etc.
There is also no representative Faction from Southeast Asia, but like North America, I could live with that since most of the real 'powerhouses' culturally and otherwise in both of those areas are a little later: Medieval and Renaissance Eras

I was thinking about the Huns and Parthians, and they both seem like a better fit for medieval, but then they have to compete for that spot with the Mongols. If Carthage doens't make it (and I kinda don't want them to yet) maybe Xiongnu would be a better fit?

@ehecatzin there‘s actually a civ on your list that I hope doesn’t appear: Carthage. I‘m all for being able to choose logical transitions such as Phoenicia -> Carthage, but I think these two would largely occupy the same niche and turn out too similar.

You know what? I don't either I'm just going by what little we know, the Elephants point in that direction. hopefully Elephants turn out to be unlockable by everyone if you have the resources or something like that

 

[ehecatzin]

This is probably very close.

I believe they said that there was a "Celts" culture though, which would eliminate Gaul. And if anyone remembers correctly... @Boris Gudenuf maybe you do...I thought they said they only had 3 Chinese cultures for the initial start and they were Zhou, Ming, and PRC? I'd be very happy to have Han though. If not, I would guess they might be Choson.

I like the thought of Suebi but I think it might be more broad than that (maybe Goths).

Oh didn't know abut Celts, close enough I guess. And didn't know about the Chinese cultures confirmation either (I'm starting to realize how much I depended on Arioch's well of souls for civ speculation).

Now....If there's such a gap on Chinese culture, do you think all cultures will be designed the same way, with alternating gaps? (specially the ones that last all the way to modern in some way or another)

 

[Siptah]

As to who I will play first, I usually go random, but I don‘t know if this an option in Humankind. If I have to choose, I‘ll go with a builder culture, so Egypt in this case. For a first game and to get to know the rules etc. I prefer a peaceful run through. We‘ll see what makes a culture a builder culture, so maybe it will change when we know more about the game and I will choose someone like the Harappans for a relaxed first game.

It may be the same niche, but it's different eras. They probably will have naval trade cultures in every era, so you can play the same strategy through the whole game if you like, without having to abstain from choosing.

Hopefully there is a naval trade civ in every era. But just as hopefully, at least from my point of view, historically consecutive cultures do not share the same focus in any instance. I‘d rather give the precious slot to someone else in such cases.
Nubians or Phoenicians into Aksumites with similar strategy: great!
Aesthete Zhou into Aesthete Han: nah!

You and everyone else might disagree of course.

 

[Matthias Corvinus]

As to who I will play first, I usually go random, but I don‘t know if this an option in Humankind. If I have to choose, I‘ll go with a builder culture, so Egypt in this case. For a first game and to get to know the rules etc. I prefer a peaceful run through. We‘ll see what makes a culture a builder culture, so maybe it will change when we know more about the game and I will choose someone like the Harappans for a relaxed first game.

I added a random option to the poll

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Oh didn't know abut Celts, close enough I guess. And didn't know about the Chinese cultures confirmation either (I'm starting to realize how much I depended on Arioch's well of souls for civ speculation).

Now....If there's such a gap on Chinese culture, do you think all cultures will be designed the same way, with alternating gaps? (specially the ones that last all the way to modern in some way or another)

Since it is confirmed that we have Ancient = Olmec and Classical = Mayan, we know not all the possible 'progressions' skip Eras. Whether most of them, or only some of them, or everybody except Meso-America does, we don't have enough Information yet, especially on the Post-Classical Eras.

I was thinking about the Huns and Parthians, and they both seem like a better fit for medieval, but then they have to compete for that spot with the Mongols. If Carthage doens't make it (and I kinda don't want them to yet) maybe Xiongnu would be a better fit?

Huns are definitely Classical - Attila was dead and their 'Empire' fell apart before Rome fell, so by the Medieval Era they are Small Fry, mercenaries for Byzantium more than anything else. On the other hand, the considered opinion among scholars now is that the Hsong-Nu or Xiong-nu and the 'Huns' were either the same group or so closely related in culture/technology as to be practically indistinguishable, so you could use either the 'western' or the 'eastern' name for them with pretty near the same Emblematic Unit/Structure/District.
Parthians, as I mentioned in another post, kind of 'overlap' with the Persians, since the Parthian Empire was basically, Persia with a new ruling class.

Fact is, the more I consider them, the more I think 'Huns' fit Humankind's framework perfectly: a One-Era Faction that in the game as they did historically has to turn into something else in the next Era! On the other hand, that description also pretty much fits Scythians, Parthians, Sarmatians, and most of the other Central Asia Pastoral 'Factions' from the Classical Era.

 

[Siptah]

Fact is, the more I consider them, the more I think 'Huns' fit Humankind's framework perfectly: a One-Era Faction that in the game as they did historically has to turn into something else in the next Era! On the other hand, that description also pretty much fits Scythians, Parthians, Sarmatians, and most of the other Central Asia Pastoral 'Factions' from the Classical Era.

Either that or add cultures like the Huns as the Mongols are in CK2: they appear around when and where they appeared historically as an AI controlled culture with a lot of units to shake up the map to quite some extent. The expansion is eventually stopped, but the faction might remain on the map with significant territory for some time.
Humankind could even go a step further and allow the player to choose and control them - give them cheap units/ some free units in exchange for heavy penalties (science only from conquering, no founding cities or something like that).

As you seem to have quite some interest in the history of central Asia, let me recommend the 4 volumes of history of central Asia by Christoph Baumer if you want to read more, which is more detailed than Beckwith (and has prettier pictures if that is important). Or if you want to focus on earlier times (up until the middle ages) and like to read thick, incredibly rich and rather dry books in German Die frühen Völker Eurasiens by Hermann Parzinger, which might be best source on Huns and Scythian available in western literature.

I'm still baffled that the Arsacids' reputation is so low around here. They are not classical Persia, but still... They did not originate from the Persis, but a lot of this "foreign occupiers of the throne" is really Sassanian propaganda. The empire itself should be worthy of inclusion without doubt.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Either that or add cultures like the Huns as the Mongols are in CK2: they appear around when and where they appeared historically as an AI controlled culture with a lot of units to shake up the map to quite some extent. The expansion is eventually stopped, but the faction might remain on the map with significant territory for some time.
Humankind could even go a step further and allow the player to choose and control them - give them cheap units/ some free units in exchange for heavy penalties (science only from conquering, no founding cities or something like that).

As you seem to have quite some interest in the history of central Asia, let me recommend the 4 volumes of history of central Asia by Christoph Baumer if you want to read more, which is more detailed than Beckwith (and has prettier pictures if that is important). Or if you want to focus on earlier times (up until the middle ages) and like to read thick, incredibly rich and rather dry books in German Die frühen Völker Eurasiens by Hermann Parzinger, which might be best source on Huns and Scythian available in western literature.

I'm still baffled that the Arsacids' reputation is so low around here. They are not classical Persia, but still... They did not originate from the Persis, but a lot of this "foreign occupiers of the throne" is really Sassanian propaganda. The empire itself should be worthy of inclusion without doubt.

A recent historian (whose name I can't recall because it was one of about 6 that I read one after the other) made the observation that the Mongols were partly responsible for the rise of Europe in the Renaissance because they smashed up everybody except Europe: conquered China, India, sacked Baghdad, and generally set everybody else back so the Europeans could leap ahead.
That would make an interesting Game Effect: The Mongols as a Deus ex machina, a game mechanism that will 'stir up' all the existing Civs/Factions but aren't really playable as a Faction themselves. I don't think that's the way Humankind will go, because too many people want to play World Conqueror and Chingis' crew are the nearest thing to it in history, but it would be Something Different.

On the other hand, the recent spotting of "Hun Horde" and "Mongol Horde" on a (possibly experimental) Humankind Tech Tree is intriguing - it implies that these two groups are being handled in a similar fashion. Possibly recreating the infamous Barbarian Invasions of Rome with Huns and then the Mongol Disruption in the late Middle Ages with another massive Incursion.

My introduction to the Scythians was reading the Soviet site reports on excavations of Scythians in Russian and to the Mongols by reading accounts by German archeologists in German so I will certainly look up Parzinger.

In Civ, at least, I don't believe they have ever shown any Persians except the Achaemenids, so I'm not surprised that there is very little knowledge about any of the other dynasties - a shame, because they had huge influence on virtually every other Islamic culture and group from India to North Africa. They still very much consider themselves Unique: back when I was in University we had a number of Iranian students (taking engineering courses - this was under the Shah and long before the Revolution) who were uniformly insulted if anybody mistook them for 'Arabs'. They were adamant that they were Persians and would accept no other title or appellation.

 

[mitsho]

In Civ, at least, I don't believe they have ever shown any Persians except the Achaemenids, so I'm not surprised that there is very little knowledge about any of the other dynasties - a shame, because they had huge influence on virtually every other Islamic culture and group from India to North Africa. They still very much consider themselves Unique: back when I was in University we had a number of Iranian students (taking engineering courses - this was under the Shah and long before the Revolution) who were uniformly insulted if anybody mistook them for 'Arabs'. They were adamant that they were Persians and would accept no other title or appellation.

There was the late medieval Apothecary Unique Building in Civ4 I think. And yes, Iran is a totally different culture group from Arabs, just as the Turks are by the way and the Berbers of North Africa. Different language, different script, different geography, different food, different music. For sure we will get a modern or renaissance Iran.

As for the Mongols, I would appreciate a horde mechanic, I think it could make the world interesting and living. It shouldn't be calculatable, but I think there's a way to do this. Humankind will in a way have less replayability than civ (if you always prefer the Romans, you can choose them every time. And you see the other nine options in every game as well), so it needs some things to shake up. Age of Piracy is another such horde by the way. But I do see your point of wanting to play as the Mongols as well. We'll see what they'll do.

 

[ehecatzin]

On the other hand, the recent spotting of "Hun Horde" and "Mongol Horde" on a (possibly experimental) Humankind Tech Tree is intriguing - it implies that these two groups are being handled in a similar fashion. Possibly recreating the infamous Barbarian Invasions of Rome with Huns and then the Mongol Disruption in the late Middle Ages with another massive Incursion.

Maybe they are going in a similar direction to Stellaris, in that the "barbarian" entities in the galaxy have a chance of a great Khan uniting them and causing a mid game crisis. You could either fight them, pay masive tribute, or well, join them for the ride. Once the Khan dies the empire fractures.

If they go a similar route for Humankind it would at least open options for the player, we still have to see if they start as classical civ "barbarians" or if they'll be more event based.

As for the Mongols, assuming a mechanic like this is a thing, maybe as a Mongol player it would be in your interest to "hunt" barb camps to unite them under your banner, or maybe you'd get to direct the "great khan" mechanic. we still don't know much.

. Age of Piracy is another such horde by the way. But I do see your point of wanting to play as the Mongols as well. We'll see what they'll do.

One thing I'd love to see It's the ability to pay pirates to go mess rivals, maybe if enough people pay the pirates they'll go out of control and form their own Pirate republic causing a crisis.

 

[Jkchart]

On the other hand, the recent spotting of "Hun Horde" and "Mongol Horde" on a (possibly experimental) Humankind Tech Tree is intriguing - it implies that these two groups are being handled in a similar fashion. Possibly recreating the infamous Barbarian Invasions of Rome with Huns and then the Mongol Disruption in the late Middle Ages with another massive Incursion.
.

The tech tree structure definitely leaves two possibilities: 1) the Huns and Mongols are being handled as "major" minor factions that appear in those eras, OR 2) they are units so inherent to picking the culture that you do not have to research them to unlock them, just turn into the culture (that's my new idea). Who knows though.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

The tech tree structure definitely leaves two possibilities: 1) the Huns and Mongols are being handled as "major" minor factions that appear in those eras, OR 2) they are units so inherent to picking the culture that you do not have to research them to unlock them, just turn into the culture (that's my new idea). Who knows though.

One of the 'drawbacks' of an entirely new Game is that we cannot assume anything. Yes, many mechanics may bear a passing resemblance to previous Amplitude games like Endless Legend or Endless Space 2, but that's as much as I think we can safely say: any resemblance to any Civ mechanics are likely to be strictly coincidental, like 'Emblematic' buildings/quarters and units as a 're-skin' of Unique Units and Buildings/Districts.

So, the Huns/Mongols could be 'regular' Factions. OR they could be Factions with a peculiar Pastoral Mechanic that, say, forms horse-archer or cavalry units like mad and doesn't rely on cities so much (given that they've shown an 'Outpost' as, apparently, a Non-City on the map, I think that is Very Possible), OR they could be some kind of Minor Faction that periodically Explodes using some AYU ("As Yet Unknown" - I think we're going to need that acronym a Lot in the next month or so!) mechanism.

AND if they are using some 'pastoral/nomad' mechanic to make them peculiar, how does that relate to the 'nomadic start' they've already talked about for all the Factions, both AI and Player?

Durn it, I still want to play in some 4X Historical game as a Nomad Faction from the Start to the Renaissance!

 

[Siptah]

Durn it, I still want to play in some 4X Historical game as a Nomad Faction from the Start to the Renaissance!

Ever played a game as the roving clans in Endless Legend? It‘s not really nomadic, but being able to move your cities is a step in that direction. Amplitude already went into that direction before, they have the nomadic start now. It‘s definitely on their screen as a mechanic. Let‘s hope we‘ll get that possibility - if not now, maybe in an expansion.