Culture (Unit + Quarter) Speculation Thread

[Boris Gudenuf]

Ever played a game as the roving clans in Endless Legend? It‘s not really nomadic, but being able to move your cities is a step in that direction. Amplitude already went into that direction before, they have the nomadic start now. It‘s definitely on their screen as a mechanic. Let‘s hope we‘ll get that possibility - if not now, maybe in an expansion.

I have indeed, several times, played Roving Clans: semi-Nomadic, Trade-oriented, extremely mobile troops: I refer to them as Sogdians or Ferenghi when I play them (and no, that's not a Star Trek reference, we're both referring to the same historical source)

And it was partly because of that other Amplitude offering that I was so excited to hear about a 'nomad start' in Humankind and am keeping an eye out for any sign of Pastoral/Nomad Factions - like the Huns and/or Mongols.

It would not be at all difficult to 'extend' the Nomad Start to allow a Nomad/Pastoral Faction choice until the Renaissance:
Secondary choices in ():

Bronze Era: Cimmerians (Yamnayans, Shintashtans)
Classical Era: Huns/Xiong-Nu (Scythians, Parthians, Sarmatians)
Medieval Era: Mongols (Sogdians, Magyars, Bulgars, Pechenegs)
In the Renaissance you still have groups like the Great Horde or Golden Horde in southern Russia, but they are largely Victims of better-armed gunpowder-wielding 'settled' cultures nearby.

 

[VermelhoRed]

I think the way Crusader Kings did Mongol invasions was very cool and very appropriate for what that particular game tries to achieve. However games like Civ or Humankind are attempting to be broader than that and I must say I'll never be satisfied with a giant enemy Mongolian horde spawning on such a game! I want to be Mongolia in these games! Now, I'd love for them to have a wildly different gameplay than the other civs, something that reflects their nomadic nature, but if that isn't feasible, please give us a regular playable Mongolian culture!

And for Renaissance hordes, don't forget the Timurids who conquered half of Asia!

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I think the way Crusader Kings did Mongol invasions was very cool and very appropriate for what that particular game tries to achieve. However games like Civ or Humankind are attempting to be broader than that and I must say I'll never be satisfied with a giant enemy Mongolian horde spawning on such a game! I want to be Mongolia in these games! Now, I'd love for them to have a wildly different gameplay than the other civs, something that reflects their nomadic nature, but if that isn't feasible, please give us a regular playable Mongolian culture!

And for Renaissance hordes, don't forget the Timurids who conquered half of Asia!

Actually, the Timurids are a good example of a 'One Shot' disruptive Horde model than the Mongols are. The Timurid Empire lasted, essentially, for one man's lifetime. Delete Timur-i-Lenk and you delete everything. And, as a 'Mongol Successor', it didn't really add a lot to cultural. religious. architectural development that wasn't already there (Yes, I know Timur's Tomb is an architectural Masterpiece, but it isn't a distinctive architectural 'Timurid' style, it's Persian-Islamic done really, really well). On the other hand, the 'original' Mongols spawned an entire new Dynasty in China and 'successor Hordes' all over central Asia, including the Great Horde I mentioned above, the Khanate of Kazan and, more indirectly, the Mughuls who reformed India - much too influential over a longer period to be adequately covered by a Single Leader model - which, however, could be applied to the Huns or Timurids.

 

[VermelhoRed]

Actually, the Timurids are a good example of a 'One Shot' disruptive Horde model than the Mongols are. The Timurid Empire lasted, essentially, for one man's lifetime. Delete Timur-i-Lenk and you delete everything. And, as a 'Mongol Successor', it didn't really add a lot to cultural. religious. architectural development that wasn't already there (Yes, I know Timur's Tomb is an architectural Masterpiece, but it isn't a distinctive architectural 'Timurid' style, it's Persian-Islamic done really, really well). On the other hand, the 'original' Mongols spawned an entire new Dynasty in China and 'successor Hordes' all over central Asia, including the Great Horde I mentioned above, the Khanate of Kazan and, more indirectly, the Mughuls who reformed India - much too influential over a longer period to be adequately covered by a Single Leader model - which, however, could be applied to the Huns or Timurids.

You should read more about the Timurids. In fact the very Mughal dynasty you mentioned comes straight from them. They weren't comparable to the Mongols, nothing in our world's history ever was, but they were extremely significant.

 

[Matthias Corvinus]

Since score victory is mandatory, it is going to be fun playing scientific civs and not having to worry about winning the game at turn 50.

 

[ehecatzin]

Since score victory is mandatory, it is going to be fun playing scientific civs and not having to worry about winning the game at turn 50.

Actually that makes me wonder if there will be catch up mechanics, or objectives that act as score multipliers by the end game so that it can counter the snowball effect.

 

[Catoninetales_Amplitude]

Actually that makes me wonder if there will be catch up mechanics, or objectives that act as score multipliers by the end game so that it can counter the snowball effect.

There are some counters to snowballing built into the Fame System itself in my opinion, but of course this pre-alpha and balancing is ongoing, so it is difficult for me to judge how well they work right now.

 

[Duomo1334]

- Who will you play first?
- Great Random

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

@ehecatzin there‘s actually a civ on your list that I hope doesn’t appear: Carthage. I‘m all for being able to choose logical transitions such as Phoenicia -> Carthage, but I think these two would largely occupy the same niche and turn out too similar.

Having Phoenicia and Carthage, in a game like Humankind though, makes more sense to have both in a game that is about culture progression.
I wouldn't be surprised to see a Cothon and an African War Elephant as their emblematic quarter and unit and maybe be militaristic instead of merchant for differentiation.

 

[Krajzen]

Actually, the Timurids are a good example of a 'One Shot' disruptive Horde model than the Mongols are. The Timurid Empire lasted, essentially, for one man's lifetime. Delete Timur-i-Lenk and you delete everything. And, as a 'Mongol Successor', it didn't really add a lot to cultural. religious. architectural development that wasn't already there

I'm sorry but everything you just said was completely wrong, to the point I am wondering od you have read anything about Timurid Empire at all
1) That line "delete Timur you delete everything" gave me a stroke. Do you even know that his successor, Shah Rukh, ruled for FORTY TWO YEARS as VERY GOOD ruler? Of a powerful and stable urban empire (and goddamn it contained some of the finest cities of its time) which collapsed only after his death, hugely due to the succession chaos following such long reign?
2) Timurid period was VERY important for huge part od Asia regarding culture and arts, and probably the swan song of scientific Islamic civilizations of premodern era lol.
3) Timurid period is considered by many as among best eras Herat, Bukhara and especially Samarkand, naming top metropolies only, in terms of cultural and urban development.

I started posted different publications about impact of Timurid Renaissance on artistic and intellectual life of Central Asia, and their legacy in Persia and India (through Mughals), about their innovations in art and architecture and patronage of scholars, but there is such wealth of sources on this subject and entire books written about it that I just assume you simply don't know the subject yet. If you do and this is your legitimate position then I don't even know what to say.

Hell, I'd say Timurids without Tamerlane but with Shah Rukh as a ruler would still be very good candidate for new civ in Civ series (certainly the most influential one from Khwarezm next to Sogdia).

Having Phoenicia and Carthage, in a game like Humankind though, makes more sense to have both in a game that is about culture progression.
I wouldn't be surprised to see a Cothon and an African War Elephant as their emblematic quarter and unit and maybe be militaristic instead of merchant for differentiation.

Isn't Cothon already Phoenician improvement under a different name?
And Carthage really IMO still should be merchant civ, not militarist one. They barely had military expansion for centuries and they had almost no professional citizen army at all, relying on mercenaries. I vaguely recall some specific traditions (or even laws?) discouraging for their citizens to pursue military career instead of trade. They have failed to conquer Sicily and beat Syracuse (and they tried and failed so many times), their first war with Romans was so long due to logistics and attrition warfare as they failed most open field battles.
Their success in second Punic war was because of
1) Singular genius of Hannibal
2) His army of mercenaries (Numidians, Iberians, Gauls, Italics), hugely built by his personal charisma, mostly not even reinforced from homeland.
Second Punic war was seriously carried by Hannibal, that was part of why despite his crushing victories Romans managed to continue - he couldnt be everywhere and they were slowly grinding down his allies in Iberia and Italy.

Entire separate subject is, well, just how similar Carthage was culturally to Phoenician homeland - after all their existence has hugely overlapped (IIRC it even sent traditonal tribute to its mother Tyre for a long time). Also the very name "Punic wars" means basically "Phoenician wars" as Romans saw them (of course that's by far the weakest argument).

So for me Carthage should still be merchant and its flavour is mostly covered by Phoenicia. Btw Phoenicia is WAY closer to Rome, Greece and Persia than Egypt so I don't know why it is in the earliest era to begin with, lol. If anything, earliest era Levantine civ should be Canaan or some form of Syria (Aram, Yamhad, Ebla, whatever).

EDIT
Also, Phoenicians without cities covered by Carthaginian empire would have only around 7 city names so that's another reason why games shouldn't contain them both (Tyre, Sidon, Byblos, Tripoli, Acre, Arwad, Sarepta - all from Levant, as Carthage controlled almost all major P colonies)

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Isn't Cothon already Phoenician improvement under a different name?

Not sure how a Haven would look in game, but a Cothon would be distinct. In my opinion if they didn't want to have Carthage, they could have easily called the Phoenicia Emblematic quarter a Cothon, like Civ 6 does now.

And Carthage really IMO still should be merchant civ, not militarist one. They barely had military expansion for centuries and they had almost no professional citizen army at all, relying on mercenaries. I vaguely recall some specific traditions (or even laws?) discouraging for their citizens to pursue military career instead of trade. They have failed to conquer Sicily and beat Syracuse (and they tried and failed so many times), their first war with Romans was so long due to logistics and attrition warfare as they failed most open field battles.

Carthage being a merchant Civ does make sense, but I can see a more militaristic route if they want to differentiate the two cultures. It's just speculation and it could be either one.

Entire separate subject is, well, just how similar Carthage was culturally to Phoenician homeland - after all their existence has hugely overlapped (IIRC it even sent traditonal tribute to its mother Tyre for a long time). Also the very name "Punic wars" means basically "Phoenician wars" as Romans saw them (of course that's by far the weakest argument).

I don't see the overlapping as a problem when the game is probably going to get several iterations of China, England/U.K, France and Germany throughout all the ages.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

By the way, the cultures are being revealed in alphabetical order right?
Since the Aksumites were just announced does that mean that they aren't going to use the name Achaemenids for the Classical Era Persia, and just call it Persia?

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I'm sorry but everything you just said was completely wrong, to the point I am wondering od you have read anything about Timurid Empire at all
1) That line "delete Timur you delete everything" gave me a stroke. Do you even know that his successor, Shah Rukh, ruled for FORTY TWO YEARS as VERY GOOD ruler? Of a powerful and stable urban empire (and goddamn it contained some of the finest cities of its time) which collapsed only after his death, hugely due to the succession chaos following such long reign?
2) Timurid period was VERY important for huge part od Asia regarding culture and arts, and probably the swan song of scientific Islamic civilizations of premodern era lol.
3) Timurid period is considered by many as among best eras Herat, Bukhara and especially Samarkand, naming top metropolies only, in terms of cultural and urban development.

I started posted different publications about impact of Timurid Renaissance on artistic and intellectual life of Central Asia, and their legacy in Persia and India (through Mughals), about their innovations in art and architecture and patronage of scholars, but there is such wealth of sources on this subject and entire books written about it that I just assume you simply don't know the subject yet. If you do and this is your legitimate position then I don't even know what to say.

Hell, I'd say Timurids without Tamerlane but with Shah Rukh as a ruler would still be very good candidate for new civ in Civ series (certainly the most influential one from Khwarezm next to Sogdia).

Shah Rukh was the son of Timur, so my original statement stands: Delete Timur and you delete everything (after him). There MIGHT have been a similarly influential polity formed by someone else, but that's an Unknowable.

And under Rukh, the Timurid Empire was only about half the size it was under his father, and after 1500 CE, it had cultural legacy importance, but very little military or political.

If it makes you feel any better, I feel the same way about Alexander the Great's Empire (and I did my graduate Thesis on Alexander): tremendous cultural influence in spreading Hellenistic thinking throughout the Middle East and a model for subsequent would-be conquerors, but didn't even last as long as Timur's - one generation instead of two. And, again, Delete Alexander and you (probably) delete everything: certainly none of the other Macedonian leaders of his and his father's generation were inclined to try and Conquer the World (I won't expand this discussion into obscurities by discussing 'possible' other Alexandrian Alternatives like Jason of Thessaly)

And like Alexander, Timur and Rukh were passing on another set of cultural/artistic attributes, not their own: in their case largely Persian, in Alexander's Greek.

Important in transmission and spreading of other people's achievements in the arts, science, "philosophy", but Ephemeral in and of themselves as Empires, which should be the point of a discussion of them in the game.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Important in transmission and spreading of other people's achievements in the arts, science, "philosophy", but Ephemeral in and of themselves as Empires, which should be the point of a discussion of them in the game.

I apologize to everybody for quoting myself, but just realized how far off topic I got: with Humankind's system of One Faction = One Era, both Timur and Alexander's Empires are perfect candidates for inclusion, Timur as Renaissance, Alexander as Classical Factions.

And while either one could be Militarist or Expansionist, I think you have a very good point that using the 'second generation' of Timur's line a good case can be made for a Timurid Empire as Aesthete. Alexander, despite the resulting spread of Greek/Hellenistic thinking that eventually resulted in the Great Library/Museum at Alexandria and some very important scientific results (Ptolemy's astronomy, Galen's medicine, Heron's mechanics) wasn't directly responsible for those - they didn't really come to fruition until almost 300 years after his Empire fell apart into the Diadochi. In contrast, the spread of Persian-influenced art, literature, and architecture under the Timurids started under Timur himself and expanded under Rukh.

 

[ehecatzin]

By the way, the cultures are being revealed in alphabetical order right?
Since the Aksumites were just announced does that mean that they aren't going to use the name Achaemenids for the Classical Era Persia, and just call it Persia?

Most likely, Catoninetales mentioned about how they wanted to keep things simple for the general public, I think that's a safer bet considering the amount of cultures they are planning to pack in game.

I apologize to everybody for quoting myself, but just realized how far off topic I got: with Humankind's system of One Faction = One Era, both Timur and Alexander's Empires are perfect candidates for inclusion, Timur as Renaissance, Alexander as Classical Factions.

I honestly don't see them packing both Greek and Macedon on release, however Macedon and a couple of the Hellenistic kingdoms could be good candidates for later addition. Same situation for ancient Greece, maybe later we'll get a Minoan civ.

 

[FinalDoomsday]

Ill be happy with Persia if they get a Cataphract of some kind that feels more iconic for Persia than the Immortal to me.

 

[Siptah]

We‘ll probably know tomorrow whether Carthage makes the cut - except in the unlikely case of the Armenians or Alans making an appearance.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Most likely, Catoninetales mentioned about how they wanted to keep things simple for the general public, I think that's a safer bet considering the amount of cultures they are planning to pack in game.



I honestly don't see them packing both Greek and Macedon on release, however Macedon and a couple of the Hellenistic kingdoms could be good candidates for later addition. Same situation for ancient Greece, maybe later we'll get a Minoan civ.

Please note that I didn't try to assume that they WOULD be in Humankind, I just said that given the Humankind mechanism of Factions for One Era Only, Alexander's and Timur's ephemeral Empires were perfect candidates.

I suspect if we got either of them, it will be from Mods or DLCs: maybe a Great Conquerors DLC that includes the Factions/Empires formed/led by would-be World (or at least their part of it) Conquerors: Alexander's Macedonia (Classical), Normans (Medieval), Timurid Empire (Renaissance), 1st French Empire (Napoleon - Industrial), Imperial Japan (Modern)

Ill be happy with Persia if they get a Cataphract of some kind that feels more iconic for Persia than the Immortal to me.

Since Cataphracts, meaning armored men on armored horses not using bows, are first described as the Massagetae contingent in the Persian Army at Gaugamela against Alexander and were later used by Byzantines and possibly Sarmatians, I'd prefer Clibanarii. These were armored cavalry on armored horses peculiar to the Sassanid Persians from approximately 3rd to 7th centuries CE. They could be armed with either bows and/or a 12 foot long heavy Lance. Possibly, then, an early Knight who can also have a Missile Effect before charging. They fought both the Roman and Byzantine states to a bloody draw on several occasions.

 

[ehecatzin]

Please note that I didn't try to assume that they WOULD be in Humankind, I just said that given the Humankind mechanism of Factions for One Era Only, Alexander's and Timur's ephemeral Empires were perfect candidates.

Point taken, jumped the gun a bit Tho I get what you mean, that's one of the main selling points of Humankind for me, in that we don't discuss if X or Y civ is "important" or "inlfuential" enough across all of history to make it in, it only has to be so in their respective eras, and that opens a whole bunch of likely options,

I mean we do end up discussing if one can make it in into a 10 slot alphabethically but that's different.

Following your suggestions, I'd like to see both Timurids and Mughals make it into the game at some point, or following the Alexander train, Greco-Bactria would be really interesting to see.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Following your suggestions, I'd like to see both Timurids and Mughals make it into the game at some point, or following the Alexander train, Greco-Bactria would be really interesting to see.

Humankind's Central Asia DLC: (assuming that Huns and Mongols make it into the basic game in some form)
Classical Era - Scythians
Medieval Era - Sogdians
Renaissance Era - Timurid Empire
Industrial Era - Emirate of Afghanistan