Discussion in 'Humankind by Amplitude' started by Matthias Corvinus, Feb 12, 2020.
I'm still annoyed I missed that when we were preparing the outro video...
Wait... have we seen hints that there's going to be a Siamese culture? If there are, I'm stoked for the age of Chulalongkorn!
yeah, look :
(again from the openDev outro + a gatling elephant spotted in the same clip, and only Siamese have some rare case of that unit IIRC, I think)
And as always, just look the CC and the EQ
(sorry Cat, to show again this terrible mistake, but like Civ, Humankind can't escape to our overanalysis of images, it's the holy role of speculation threads )
I was looking through the Humankid reddit, and I saw that there was this discussion on whether "European" can be a possible culture in the Modern Era. By "European" they mean the identity/self-identification that is connected to the European Union. I personally don't think it can be a possible culture in terms of how most people in the EU actually identify themselves. But I don't know, what do you guys think?
I was in Europe when the EU was forming (1990s), and while a lot of people were enthusiastic about the easing of travel and economic restrictions and the possibilities of doing business (and easy vacationing) all over the European (well, at the time mostly Western European) continent, I don't remember anybody identifying with either an EU 'culture' or political entity. This is based on a lot of conversations in German bars with a lot of German school teachers and college-level students who were practicing their English on me and correcting my German for me, so it was by no means a 'scientific' survey of the general population, but based on recent political events in Europe, I suspect that any meaningful identification with the EU is even less now than it was then.
Identify is as culturally European as a greater entity, in contrast or addition to identifying with a nationality, is very much a thing, despite more recent nationalistic trends. Especially for people below the age of 40 of which many lived a year or more in another European country at some point.
While the EU is the cause for this to some extent, most people won’t identify culturally with the EU nonetheless.
That said, I think the EU would be the most elegant solution for a contemporary European choice. The best other options seem to be Norway, Sweden, or Switzerland.
I am aware of "European" as a marker of self-identity of course.
However this begs the question though: what can be considered a "culture" in Humankind's terms? I'm assuming the barest definition would be an obvious one (ethnicity or cultural group), in addition to self-identity, but so far we've had empires (Ottomans, Byzantines, etc), nation-states (Germans), confederations (Haudenosaunee), city-states (Venetians), dynasties (Ming, Edo, Mauryans), and peoples who don't have any obvious centralized political organization (Olmecs, Maya). At least what I see here is that in each of these entities, the majority of people at least self-identify as part of the wider group. Of course with the people like the Olmecs, we don't know what they call themselves as, but you get my point.
So with "EUropean" as a culture, I think it's easy to conceptualize (as you said it's simpler to just create a European culture for the purposes of gameplay), but in a way it's hard to see how it fits with the others, considering a large amount of people also or in contrast identify with their nation-state.
Venetians are represented in their empire period, same for Germans. The Ming Empire and Maurya Empire can be considered even if a dynastic name is used.
Well at least the main power resides in what would be Europe.
I disagree. Empire is not a concisely defined term anyways. What's an empire period? In the end, the answer is everything can be a culture if amplitude wants it to be. That's why we have a range going from empires in clearly defined borders to lose groupings like the Celts. Or we do need to wait dor the city list to see what the Ummayads really represent...
In that sense, I want an European Union Culture. But not in the modern era, which can be defined as 1920 to 2020. I want an expansion pack / toggleable DLC that adds a bit of sci-fi aesthetic and comes with appropriate cultures based on this year 2021 and a bit of projection. And in that series, a single European Culture fits best, maybe add a clown solo Brexit Culture as well. ;-)
(because it's easier to add an era at the end than one in the middle like the late antiquity we all want. )
My point was just than so far we get a lot more of empires, and than some of CivLucah exemples given as exceptions, were empires too and not exceptions.
By the way, even if it depend of the period and the definition :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurya_Empire (Amplitude quote : The Mauryan dynasty was the first to connect the Indian subcontinents. Some of the Mauryan structures left behind are still regarded as symbols of Indian unity.)
"The Mauryan structures left behind" are the Stupas (EQ) of Ashoka, before the decline of the Empire.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ming_dynasty (leaded by the emperor, ... the empire's standing army... )
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Empire (militarist, U-boat, WW1)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umayyad_Caliphate (Amplitude quote : Ruling the Islamic Empire then the Caliphate of Córdoba, Umayyad Caliphs gave their scientists and philosophers access to some of the largest libraries of their time.)
But please, it's simply the trope of 4X games, we always play as Empires, even for the exceptions ( which were not empires IIRC, like Celts). Or another good exception is Edo Japanese.
An European Union culture could be well designed imo, but the debate about european identity is too fresh and polemical. + It kill the possibility to have proper representations of some european cultures which have more chance to appear in modern :
Italy or Finland for exemple.
yes, Soviet is one of my big expectation for Modern Era.
So, today, we will get our Brits ?
A ship as EU, a steam ship ? An infantry, Highlander ?
Something about Royal Society for the EQ ? Or Botanical Gardens ?
Victorian architecture ? Red Brick architecture ? Metallic / Industrial architecture ?
As a pro EU inhabitant of very pro EU country (Poland*), I think "European culture" is a terrible idea
I think British will be Merchant, because what other culture fits this affinity in this era more? Great Britain was the place where modern capitalism was born.
* - don't ask me how it is possible that 80% of population loves EU and simultaneously the governing party is one of the biggest headaches of EU
Despite me not wanting* to have a European culture in the game, I would actually prefer that to an EU culture in the base game.
*I would have written "skeptic" but that someone might insinuate that I am a Eurosceptic, which I'm not haha
I'm kind of expecting a Redcoat because what's more emblematic than that?
Highlander would be interesting though.
That's a good point. I thought about the possibility of the Siamese being Merchant too.
I'm thinking Expansionist though because of the "Sun Never Sets" on the British Empire though.
IIRC Redcoat was a name given to most of the british regiments. Even the Fraser's Highlanders were encompassed in the Red Coat thing (wikipedia sorry )
Obviously, it's a little is similar to Conquistadores, it's iconic even if you can consider a lot of different infantry/cavalry being Conquistadores/Red Coat.
But the problem of Red Coat, it's than it don't really work well with the color choices héhé. They look less emblematic as Pink Coat, or Green Lime Coat. (bad argument I know)
Still, I feel it will be a ship. Germans need a ship to sink with their U-boat
They could be Merchant, Scientist, Expansionist or Builder
This phrase was coined as reference to the empire of Charles V. however, and the Spanish are already as expansionist in the game.
As said earlier, I hope for scientific British, but I think we'll see expansionist nonetheless, hopefully with a scientific EQ or ability. I would prefer a naval EU for the British tbh, seems the best way to bring their dominance over the waves into the game.
I mean a Highlander unit wearing a redcoat and kilt would feel very British.
True there's nothing wrong with British being Scientific either but I'm going off the fact that they took the "Sun Never Sets" idea and was able to expand even more than the Spanish did. If Sweden gets in though I do think they will be Scientific.
I do thing a Royal Society EQ would be cool though.
So who do you think will be next? What's next in the alphabet of 19th-century powers?
Ethiopia in Industrial era is perfect (if that culture will be in game at all ).
If not, then France should be next?
Separate names with a comma.