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Culture (Unit + Quarter) Speculation Thread

Discussion in 'Humankind by Amplitude' started by Matthias Corvinus, Feb 12, 2020.

?

Who will you play first?

  1. Assyrians

    2 vote(s)
    2.9%
  2. Babylonians

    5 vote(s)
    7.2%
  3. Egyptians

    5 vote(s)
    7.2%
  4. Harappans

    12 vote(s)
    17.4%
  5. Hittites

    2 vote(s)
    2.9%
  6. Mycenaeans

    5 vote(s)
    7.2%
  7. Nubians

    3 vote(s)
    4.3%
  8. Olmecs

    6 vote(s)
    8.7%
  9. Phoenicians

    10 vote(s)
    14.5%
  10. Zhou

    9 vote(s)
    13.0%
  11. Random

    10 vote(s)
    14.5%
  1. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    Because of their supposed naval supremacy with battleships, according to Civ. :mischief:

    The only reason why I think they are a possibility is because they've already set a precedent with Joseon Korea appearing. I do think Vietnam has a good chance of getting in as well.

    I mean I do agree with you there it's just that I don't think it will happen and I don't see Ethiopia being left out of the base game.
     
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  2. Narcisse

    Narcisse Prince

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    laugh in Inca
     
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  3. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    I still can't believe they did that. :p
    I would have preferred them over Teutons, which to me feels a little redundant with the Franks also being in Medieval. :rolleyes:
     
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  4. Xandinho

    Xandinho Emperor

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    With Minas Geraes, Brazil was the third country to have battleships, and they were in fact among the most powerful ships of their time. They were so powerful that it caused international agitation with America and Europe.
    But there were only two ships of the Minas Geraes class, and ironically enough, they were used against the Brazilians themselves when bombing Salvador in a political conflict. During WWI it was used only for coastal patrol. I was very surprised that Firaxis chose this as the Brazilian UU in Civ.
    I don't think it's enough to define 'militarist' to modern Brazil in Humankind. Militaristic Brazil would make sense in the industrial era.

    Yeah, although I think Koreans would sound better than South Koreans. They can happen due to the great Korean success in the last years (great economy, scientific prominence and lately, culturally also).
    But they may end up giving us Vietnam to oppose the Americans :mischief:.

    By the way, Israel would be perfect for a contemporary culture, but it certainly won't be there because it's controversial.
     
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  5. Narcisse

    Narcisse Prince

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    Japanese seems to be confirmed for modern era. The building with a mecha in the city at the end of the video.
    American obviously, with the Empire State Building wonder (?)
    The first modern city we saw in the video : the white building on the left, remember me something, any idea ?
     
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  6. 8housesofelixir

    8housesofelixir Emperor

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    There are some observations that the fighter shown up in the video is a JAS 39 Gripen. Many assumes a Contemporary Sweden.
     
  7. Narcisse

    Narcisse Prince

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    From a Vip, it could just be a generic plane. From Cat, the Malmo thing is not a solid hint.
    So we don't know what to think about that. I will expect Swedes be out of the game, I can easily justify Swedes in Early Modern (seems obvious), rather okay for industrial (Karl, most of their iconic architectures, scientist ...), but I don't see any solid reason for contemporary.

    It's like for Zulu. Hints are too lite for me, so I will not bet too much on them, and speculate too much about their apparence^^
     
  8. Krajzen

    Krajzen Deity

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    The reason for contemporary era Sweden is "we need some prosperous, influential European culture from the period 1920 - 2020 and we have already put all major ones in previous eras". In such situation you basically have to choose from among Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Ireland, Belgium, Switzerland, Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria, Romania, and few "post 1990" countries which are not that prosperous or big.
    Of those countries Sweden is arguably the most influential, among the most prosperous and among the biggest. It also has the benefit of not being amazing medieval (Bulgaria, Ireland, Denmark, Norway) or industrial (Swiss, Belgium) candidate. It is the biggest Nordic country, and symbol of the widely recognized "Nordic prosperity".

    Although personally I'd indeed put Sweden in the early modern as Militarist. Oh come on, it was such an opportunity, it was such an important state for 150 years, spearheaded military progress in the world this entire time :( It is especially annoying that they could make Germany and Italy modern era cultures. Germany could be very easily modern peaceful culture (not terrible militarist implications) and especially Italy was the economic powerhouse in the second half of 20th century, while very weak in 19th in this regard. So personally I'd put Sweden in the EM era and make Italy modern European culture :(

    Similarly, goddamn Zulu, I'd love them being absent so much. I honestly hoped they won't be in due to the fact this is supposed to be the industrial era and they have never got beyond, I don't know, iron age level; I don't even know how will their unique unit look in such case. Ethiopia should really, really be the industrial African culture, as it was the only one which actually resisted colonization succesfully.

    Unfortunately, Zulu almost have to be in at this stage: it is alphabetically too late for Ashanti (another much better choice) or Malagasy/Madagascar/Merina (also a better choice) and other possible countries just don't feel "good enough" for me. And two eras in a row without Subsaharan culture seems unlikely.
     
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  9. FinalDoomsday

    FinalDoomsday Prince

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    If we really are getting Zulu how would their emblematics even work? Civ got around it by making Impi medieval. Are the Zulu so popular that they are an essential for the starting roster?
     
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  10. grug

    grug Chieftain

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    I wonder if they may be including Zulus with a Contemporary Era (post-Apartheid) South Africa in mind. I also wouldn't discount them on the basis of technology, because there will conceivably be Industrial Era cultures that are behind technologically given that Era advancement is driven by era stars. That said, I'd rather Ethiopia as an Industrial Africa culture, especially with Italians in.
     
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  11. 8housesofelixir

    8housesofelixir Emperor

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    I assume if they do include them, it will just be named as "South African".
     
  12. ehecatzin

    ehecatzin Emperor

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    I barely remember people mentioning they may use the horde mechanic, but we know so little about how hordes even works It's hard to know.

    But, I hope that if Zulu is in, at least they play different, it would be so weird to have them play essentialy the same as the other industrial cutlures.
     
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  13. Narcisse

    Narcisse Prince

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    We already have "outclassed" units in the game, and it seems to work. Gaesatae, Jaguar Warriors, Samurai, are for me and resume : the "naked warriors" of their era.
    Early in the tech tree, cheap, and have an interesting skill. They allow to be agressive at the start of the era ( I suppose )

    Having OG Samurai at the start of renaissance, don't mean you will not devellop the other units (gunners, artillery, etc ...) like all other cultures. SO if Zulu are in the game and in indutrial, their units could work like that.

    The horde mechanic is probably the same than the Hunnic unit ? It's an interesting skill, but personnally, I didn't spot the "horde thing" in the industrial tech tree.
     
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  14. FinalDoomsday

    FinalDoomsday Prince

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    I dont really think Impi in Industrial is comparable to those examples. Gaesatae is running around naked sure but hes fighting with sword and shield (probably good quality for the time too) and thats pretty much the same for everyone else in the era. Jaguar Warriors get outclassed by the later medieval stuff but they are still a match for many combatants in the medieval era and they fight in a similar way to other medieval units. Samurai show up when melee combat is still a big part of battles and firearms are primitive, you could probably make an argument that european halberdiers of the time vastly surpassed them in armour (idk I'm not an expert) but they still feel comparable to me.

    Impi are (to my knowledge) spearmen, highly effective and innovative but spearmen nonetheless. By this point in the game you've probably already got armies of veteran gunpowder troops from your previous era culture and you will soon be unlocking much better ones. Unlike the previous eras 'outclassed' units theres going to be nothing that is still fighting like the Impi in the Industrial era, I expect even the militia will be using firearms at this point. You'll need to start building Impi and finding a way to incorporate them into your existing armies.

    If you don't have an army or lost them, Zulu could be a good pick if it lets you rush out a fast, cheap unit to defend yourself or catch out an opponent. It seems like a small niche but its there. I just feel others have already pointed out lots of other African cultures that would fit the era nicely and wouldn't be an aggresive horde playstyle that mimics some troubling myths of the time.
     
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  15. Narcisse

    Narcisse Prince

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    Well. We just don't know if Zulu will be in the game. But even if they are not in the game at launch, Zulu will probably happen one day... In industrial, again.
    Still, their battles with British are very well documented and rather iconic : because British had very difficult in their campaigns in the land of Zulu.

    IIRC, the "naked" Gaesatae directly died in the first moments of the battle despicted by Polybius, which seems obvious, and if I am not wrong some historians think than it was more a ritual move.
    Jaguar are naked in the same way in the game, they don't have any armor when all other units have an armor.
    Nagitana Samurai is actually not an halberdier replacement, and I hope it will stay like this, Nagitana was not an anti-cavalry weapon if I am not wrong (question of design and conception).
    But I'm not a warfare expert, like some people here, so I'm maybe totally wrong.

    For the "agressive horde playstyle" mimics, I just don't know if Impi will have this gimmick. It's more a speculation and the horde term (used for Huns and Mongols units) don't seems to refer to an agressive horde of rusher zombies playstyle. :mischief:

    And at the end, a lot of cultures deserve to be in the game. It's the dilemma of these sort of game with historical context. But Zulu deserve to be in too, even if from my personnal tastes, I would have prefered to have Ethiopians, or the Dahomey (when speculated sounded to be an interesting idea).

    My point is just than only taking the weaponry perspective to exclude Zulu from industrial, when it could work in a gameplay perspective, is not a good idea for me. It will exclude a lot of cool cultures from the era they are relevant to appear, the Maori for exemple.
    And they could fill the niche of a Militarist African culture. The most wishlisted african cultures could be a lot of other affinities comparing to Zulu, aesthete, expansionist, scientist, agrarian, etc ...
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2020
  16. FinalDoomsday

    FinalDoomsday Prince

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    Well IF the Gaesatae died instantly they were fighting the Roman super power I presume. My main point was they were still fighting with swords and shields like the Romans which isnt comparable to British rifles vs Zulu spear and shields. I'm pretty sure Jaguar warriors had some form of cloth armour right? I cant remember what they looked like in game but bare chested I guess. Still I havent seen all the medieval units but I'm pretty sure I've seen ones without armour like the milita and Khemr long swordsman and archers, so they dont look 'out of their era' so to speak.

    Naginata Samurai are still a polearm type unit regardless of if they replace the halberdier and any type of polearm has use against mounted troops but I believe the Yari spear was the anti cavalry weapon of choice. The Halberd was also a very versatile weapon not just limited to an anti-cavalry role.

    Of course I'd not argue Zulu should never be in the game I just feel there was an opportunity to offer an African culture in the base game that shed some light on other aspects of the Industrial era on the continent.
     
  17. SuddenAppearance

    SuddenAppearance Chieftain

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    Been working with this tree image a little bit, using information for the Stadia Opendev. Some things to remark:
    -The medieval upgrade for quadrireme is not available in the Opendev, and the Langskip doesn't appear as unique transport ship in the tree.
    -Cannon/mortar can be replaced in the tree, I don't know which one would fit better whit the rocket cart.
    -Another saboteur replacement coming in the industrial era as emblematic.
    -An emblematic late industrial cannon (or it's successor) coming also as unique
    -Siamese elephant, coming from gajnal and replaced at the end of industrial. Probably to some kind of tank?
    -No cavalry in early modern era apart from Winged Hussar?
    -Industrial era infantry is still difficult to guess. I expect soldaderas to be placed in one of the two blank squares that join with infantry to form the next era infantry. Expecting other kind of early infanty if so, maybe also with revolutionary theme.
    -Seems that there is not WW1 infantry
    -Image might be too big, I don't know how to make it a spoiler, moderator action?


    TREETREE.png
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2020
  18. notNamed

    notNamed Warlord

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    The Gaestati in-game are weaker as units, but they compensate for it by being as fast as mounted units (6 movements) and not suffering from a wounded penalty (once you cross a certain health threshold, the unit's power goes down).
    Keeping the analogies going forward, Industrial era has melee cavalry units. Your hypothetical Zulu EU could very well stack up against them in a similar way the Gaestati do. Don't suffer wounded penalties, faster movement than the line infantry, some people even toyed with the idea of giving them the nomad trait (but that might be an overkill). Of course, if they're in, they'll still get howitzers, their own cavalry or line infantry and so on, so I wouldn't worry about the implementation of the EU too much.

    Samurai don't get an anti-cav bonus.
    Spoiler :
    And Japanese anti/cavalry tactics, or rather the seeming lack thereof is itself a topic in its own right in academia.
     
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  19. Krajzen

    Krajzen Deity

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    Wonderful work. Although I have mixed feelings about those upgrade trees.

    1) I was honestly surprised by Musket being an upgrade of Crossbow, I expected them to go civ route of Musketmen being an upgrade of melee infantry and ranged units being something else. I don't understand what's happening to the Great Sword in this case, especially as it has very weird follow up of... Spies?
    2) Halberdiers are very strange for the Early Modern upgrade of Pikemen, I'd really expect to see Pike - and - Shot here. I guess it was just too big headache to make animations and rules for a hybrid melee/ranged unit. I am also surprised by the fact they just upgrade into the regular infantry afterwards, instead of some excuse unit in the industrial era before transitioning to Tank Destroyers or whatever in the modern era. I'd expect Infantry - Cavalry - Anti Cavalry rock paper scissors divide to go all the way into the modern era. On the other hand at least we are not getting the complete abomination of civ5 Pikeman -> Lancer -> AT Gun -> Helicopter line (God it was so bad) :D I'd
    3) For a while I was really weirded out by the prospect of Archer upgrading into Noble Javelin before checking it is Mayan unique unit.
    4) Chariot -> Knight -> Cavalry and simultaneous separate line of Scout Rider -> Horseman -> Cavalry. Huh, not the worst solution.
    5) Scouts upgrading into Horsemen is a brilliant idea and I'm surprised civ series never did this, it's much more economic than weird unnatural "explorer combat units" upgrade lines which are always introduced by mods.
    6) Let me understand. Battering Ram -> Ballista -> Cannon -> Artillery is a "siege weapons" line. It is completely separated from the Mortar -> Whatever field artillery line. It's slightly strange setup, I am weirded out by devs choosing ballista over the iconic catapult unit, also I'd really prefer the idea of "bombard" being EM siege unit and "cannon" being field artillery. Also, mortar has no upgrade in the industrial era?
    7) It seems there are multiple ship upgrade lines? I hope so. Also, I didn't expect them to go the route of "transport ships" over "instant embarkation".
    8) The latest line is probably an industrial biplane branching into bomber, fighter and whatever else (helicopter?) and then into modern fighter and bomber.

    By the way, personally if I was to design 4X game, I'd do such upgrade lines:
    Spoiler :

    Ancient - Classical - Early Medieval - High Medieval - EM - Industrial - Modern - Endgame

    melee defeats anti cavalry, ac defeats cavalry, cavalry defeats melee, ranged is ranged and siege is against cities

    1) (melee) Bronze Axeman - Iron Swordman - Heavy Axeman - Heavy Swordman - Musketman - Line Infantry - Modern Infantry - Mechanized Inf
    2) (anti cavalry) Spearman - Phalanx - Heavy Spearman - Pikeman - Pike and Shot - Guard Infantry - Tank Destroyer - Helicopter
    3) (cavalry) Chariot - Horseman - Cataphract - Knight - Lancer - Uhlan - Tank - Modern Tank
    4) (ranged) Javelin - Slinger - Archer - Crossbow - Cannon - Colubrine - Field Artillery - Rocket Artillery
    5) (siege) Batterin Ram - Catapult - Onager - Trebuchet - Bombard - Mortar - Heavy Artillery - Modern Artillery

    and then we get ships: heavy ships defeat light ships, light ships defeat artillery ships, artillery ships defeat heavy ships

    6) (light ship) Galley - x - Barque - x - Caravel - Corvette - Destroyer - Cruiser
    7) (heavy ship) x - Trireme - x - Galleas - Galleon - Frigate - Battleship - Missile Ship
    8) (artillery ship) x - Ballista Ship - x - Dromon - Carrack - Ironclad - Submarine - N. Submarine
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2020
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  20. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    Civ 6 got around that by at least making them Pikemen replacement. It's very possible that they won't be on a spearman level when talking about combat strength. Even so that might be a reason why they could use a horde mechanic. :mischief:
     
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