Hippo8085
Shaken, not stirred
I don't know about the rest of you, but I have gone through twice and both times I have founded Buddhism. This could be related back to a series of posts somewhere discussing Buddhism not being founded.
Current (SVN) development discussion thread
- Thread starter Leoreth
- Start date
You'll have trade routes no matter who you OB to, so that's not really an incentive.
You have gone through what twice?
iOnlySignIn
Prince$s
"Something related to Trade Routes" can be much more interesting than you seem to think. There are ways to encourage OBing without making it an explicit UHV.
For example, the +1
from every 2 
from Trade Routes UP, i.e. the Lombard UP from RFCE++. With such a UP, you'll want to OB with Rome/Greece/Egypt/China/Arabia since those Trade Routes yield much higher amount of than your Domestic Trade Routes.That's not my idea, though. It's Morholt's. I merely am able to understand its potential.
What defines Srivijaya?
EDIT : Never mind. Found it.
EDIT2
I think tSrivijayaBR shouldn't be (105, 29) but (101,32) because it doesn't force you to collapse or vassalize all Indonesia, and I'm sure you know that Cholas never controlled Borneo or Java
EDIT : Never mind. Found it.
EDIT2
I think tSrivijayaBR shouldn't be (105, 29) but (101,32) because it doesn't force you to collapse or vassalize all Indonesia, and I'm sure you know that Cholas never controlled Borneo or Java
Hippo8085
Shaken, not stirred
I've done the Tamils twice
Stopped the first time after founding Buddhism.
Cannot recreate this happening 3 times after, so probably only small chance.
Stopped the first time after founding Buddhism.
Cannot recreate this happening 3 times after, so probably only small chance.
iOnlySignIn
Prince$s
Or we can use a reduced, less interesting, but less easily abused version of it.There are ways to encourage OBing without making it an explicit UHV.
For example, the +1
+1
per Foreign Trade Route and/or +1 per Overseas Trade Route. There, now it is clear. You should OB with everyone (except India, perhaps).
iOnlySignIn
Prince$s
Hippo8085
Shaken, not stirred
That would help the production, but I think it should be food for whipping.
After getting Buddhism founded before spawn 3 times, now I got it not founding. Need a more sure fire way of getting Buddhism founded.
After getting Buddhism founded before spawn 3 times, now I got it not founding. Need a more sure fire way of getting Buddhism founded.
iOnlySignIn
Prince$s
Played a Tamil game till 1100 AD/Gunpowder, Epic/Emperor. A few things:
(0) Game bugged out to have no Mercenaries. I took the liberty to give myself 2 Chang Sueks in the WB around 950 AD. Otherwise the Tamils have almost no
in their cities to build units. Whipping is to be avoided if possible because it ruins fantastic yields (Resources, Water tiles, Trade Routes).
(1) UHV 1 does not check properly. It neither ticks nor fails at or past 800 AD. Consequently, no GA after UHV2.
The Culture requirement is doable without Great Artists - regular Artists are enough. I got a Great Artist but I bulbed him as there are more than 3000 Culture in my cities already.
As for the 4500 Gold, I farmed 2 Great Merchants and sent them to Babylon & Kaifeng. On Normal 1 may be enough.
(2) UHV 2 requires you to take Mumbai. Not very historical.
(3) I find that everyone (Persia, India, even China) is happy to trade Techs with me. Quite different from a China/Japan game in that regard. Tamil's core is also filled with useful trade resources that can help you manage your Health problem. I have the advantage over India in terms of foreign trade because neither Persia nor China hates me like they hate India. However, India doesn't hate me either due to shared Hinduism. The Tamils' position in terms of foreign policy is perfect.
As for Trade Routes, my best partner pre-medieval is actually Egypt, followed by Rome, Persia, then India. China only got happier and OBed after "Years of supplying Resources", it was very late so it didn't matter much.
(4) I have no Iron. Others have mentioned this - it needs to be changed. War Elephants are good, but Tamils can tech to Gunpowder before going for their expansion goal. Not being able to build Bombards due to lack of metal would be ridiculous.
(0) Game bugged out to have no Mercenaries. I took the liberty to give myself 2 Chang Sueks in the WB around 950 AD. Otherwise the Tamils have almost no
in their cities to build units. Whipping is to be avoided if possible because it ruins fantastic yields (Resources, Water tiles, Trade Routes).(1) UHV 1 does not check properly. It neither ticks nor fails at or past 800 AD. Consequently, no GA after UHV2.
The Culture requirement is doable without Great Artists - regular Artists are enough. I got a Great Artist but I bulbed him as there are more than 3000 Culture in my cities already.
As for the 4500 Gold, I farmed 2 Great Merchants and sent them to Babylon & Kaifeng. On Normal 1 may be enough.
(2) UHV 2 requires you to take Mumbai. Not very historical.
(3) I find that everyone (Persia, India, even China) is happy to trade Techs with me. Quite different from a China/Japan game in that regard. Tamil's core is also filled with useful trade resources that can help you manage your Health problem. I have the advantage over India in terms of foreign trade because neither Persia nor China hates me like they hate India. However, India doesn't hate me either due to shared Hinduism. The Tamils' position in terms of foreign policy is perfect.
As for Trade Routes, my best partner pre-medieval is actually Egypt, followed by Rome, Persia, then India. China only got happier and OBed after "Years of supplying Resources", it was very late so it didn't matter much.
(4) I have no Iron. Others have mentioned this - it needs to be changed. War Elephants are good, but Tamils can tech to Gunpowder before going for their expansion goal. Not being able to build Bombards due to lack of metal would be ridiculous.
iOnlySignIn
Prince$s
Re: the current Tamil UP, it's fitting and very useful.
Since it is free Colossus, a natural alternative would be free Great Lighthouse: +2 Trade Routes per city. Or, a more balanced version: +1 Trade Routes per city, +2 Trade Routes in Capital.
A UP which gives from Trade Routes, plus a 10 Coastal Cities UHV, may encourage the close settling which Leoreth professes to support.
10 Coastal Cities may be a bit too many though - 9 is preferrable, since India will not settle any coastal cities besides Mumbai (the idiotic AI prefers Dhaka 1 tile from the Coast to on the Coast, and Raipur over Calcutta).
Re: The current Tamil UU and UB:
Sangam is marginally useful for the Culture UHV. I like the legendary connotations of it, and the graphics look nice, but it's basically a weaker version of Ho Trai.
As for the UU, your access to it is rather late (usually when Persia is half-dead). By the time you build one you should have already OBed/contacted all the civs you wish to, except perhaps Japan. So then it's only useful if you seriously messed up relations with China.
Other than that it's useful for killing Barb Tiremes. Not very useful beyond that, as you have no foreign naval power to contend with, unlike Phoenicia who need their Biremes vs. Rome, or the Netherlands who need their East Indiamen for both settling, vs. pirates, and vs. other Europeans.
But still, a fun UU and more useful than Jaguars or Ballista Elephants at least.
Since it is free Colossus, a natural alternative would be free Great Lighthouse: +2 Trade Routes per city. Or, a more balanced version: +1 Trade Routes per city, +2 Trade Routes in Capital.
A UP which gives
from Trade Routes, plus a 10 Coastal Cities UHV, may encourage the close settling which Leoreth professes to support. 10 Coastal Cities may be a bit too many though - 9 is preferrable, since India will not settle any coastal cities besides Mumbai (the idiotic AI prefers Dhaka 1 tile from the Coast to on the Coast, and Raipur over Calcutta).
Re: The current Tamil UU and UB:
Sangam is marginally useful for the Culture UHV. I like the legendary connotations of it, and the graphics look nice, but it's basically a weaker version of Ho Trai.
As for the UU, your access to it is rather late (usually when Persia is half-dead). By the time you build one you should have already OBed/contacted all the civs you wish to, except perhaps Japan. So then it's only useful if you seriously messed up relations with China.
Other than that it's useful for killing Barb Tiremes. Not very useful beyond that, as you have no foreign naval power to contend with, unlike Phoenicia who need their Biremes vs. Rome, or the Netherlands who need their East Indiamen for both settling, vs. pirates, and vs. other Europeans.
But still, a fun UU and more useful than Jaguars or Ballista Elephants at least.
iOnlySignIn
Prince$s
If Harappans are added too, perhaps there should be fewer Independent cities spawning in India. Remove Varanasi and let India spawn 1 or 2 tiles west from its current spot, and encourage it to build Calcutta instead.
I think the subcontinent is going to need a little revision since it will have up to four civs living there. In the very early game Harappans exist, Indo-Aryans come along later and the Harappans probably die around the same time, Tamils spawn in 300 BC bringing it up to two, in AD 1210 the Mughals spawn bringing it up to three, turning India into a rump state or killing it. Eventually British land and take some cities, Tamils may survive, Mughals normally and Indians maybe if they aren't dead yet. If Indians are dead they respawn as Maratha, bringing it back up to 3-4.
In the very early game when there are 1-2 the resources can't really be tapped, when it is at 2 with Indo-Aryans and Tamils they have it split fairly well, when it goes up to three with Mughals the resources get rather thin and when the British come and it's a four way split the resources are way too thin. India could probably use an enlargement in terrain, but that's a lot of work
In the very early game when there are 1-2 the resources can't really be tapped, when it is at 2 with Indo-Aryans and Tamils they have it split fairly well, when it goes up to three with Mughals the resources get rather thin and when the British come and it's a four way split the resources are way too thin. India could probably use an enlargement in terrain, but that's a lot of work
Caesar Augustus
Prince
- Joined
- Dec 11, 2001
- Messages
- 385
I was playing a Spanish game recently where the French took Rome and the HRE took Venice, thus preventing the Italian spawn, which got me to thinking. Are there any later Italian respawns? One would think that a respawn during the Risorgimento period (perhaps in 1861, when Victor Emmanuel was crowned King of Italy) would be appropriate. I mean, if the emergence of Greece as a modern state is worth a spawn, certainly the same could be said of Italy. If there is a respawn, or if you decide to add one, would it occur if the initial spawn didn't?
I also said this, the 1861 spawn
@IOSI: thanks for the feedback. It's hard to tell whether the UHV is bugged because you said previously that Python had failed already. Python exceptions would've been helpful.
And Italy can respawn later just like any other civ. Even if they haven't spawned before.
And Italy can respawn later just like any other civ. Even if they haven't spawned before.
iOnlySignIn
Prince$s
AI Tamil is too weak. AI India is too strong. It's the same as the old Korea vs. China situation. I rolled several Japan starts (E/E) and this is what I see:
India has 2 SODs ready to kill the Tamils. Tamils have not teched anything (no Calendar) and their cities have no buildings in them (except 1 Granary in their capital), as they are whipped into oblivion to build Archers to defend.
My advice on how to rectify this:
(1) Give Tamils at least 1 Strategic Resource near their starting tiles. Either an Iron in Sri Lanka, or move the Elephant near Visakhapatnam further South, or both. Perhaps swap the Elephants with the Spices near Tanjapuri. So that they can build some unit other than Archers.
(2) Hidden Unit/Building production buffs for Tamils. They simply have no. Without a UP that gives extra food for whipping, they are as good as dead.
(3) One extra Settler is needed for the Tamil AI (perhaps not the Human player though), as the AI doesn't do strategic city placements (I made sure to cover the Elephant with my first 2 cities).
(4) Converse to (3), Govapuri should NOT spawn as an Independent and fall easy prey to India.
(5) Perhaps Tamils should start with a few War Elephants too. It's only fair given the starting units of Korea, Japan, and the free War Elephants given to Carthage before Rome's spawn.
That AI India is doing so much better than before the Tamils are introduced, is precisely because Tamils offer less resistance to India than the Independent Cities previously did (as those Indies spawn with War Elephants in them).
(6) I still don't understand how the Tamil AI messed up relations with India. I easily got India to Friendly before I deliberately started to piss them off when my military build up has gained momentum. So perhaps a hidden Relations buff from India to the Tamils is probably needed.
(7) The Stability maps need to be changed. India should no longer get Yangon (and areas further east) as Historical. Instead Yangon should be Historical for Tamils (currently it is not).
(8) Possible free units/Conquerors spawning for AI Tamils at certain years (like with the Greeks/Romans/Carthaginians). That is if you wish to keep their at ridiculously low levels. They can't even manage to build 1 Library (their UB) in 800 years.
India has 2 SODs ready to kill the Tamils. Tamils have not teched anything (no Calendar) and their cities have no buildings in them (except 1 Granary in their capital), as they are whipped into oblivion to build Archers to defend.
My advice on how to rectify this:
(1) Give Tamils at least 1 Strategic Resource near their starting tiles. Either an Iron in Sri Lanka, or move the Elephant near Visakhapatnam further South, or both. Perhaps swap the Elephants with the Spices near Tanjapuri. So that they can build some unit other than Archers.
(2) Hidden Unit/Building production buffs for Tamils. They simply have no
. Without a UP that gives extra food for whipping, they are as good as dead.(3) One extra Settler is needed for the Tamil AI (perhaps not the Human player though), as the AI doesn't do strategic city placements (I made sure to cover the Elephant with my first 2 cities).
(4) Converse to (3), Govapuri should NOT spawn as an Independent and fall easy prey to India.
(5) Perhaps Tamils should start with a few War Elephants too. It's only fair given the starting units of Korea, Japan, and the free War Elephants given to Carthage before Rome's spawn.
That AI India is doing so much better than before the Tamils are introduced, is precisely because Tamils offer less resistance to India than the Independent Cities previously did (as those Indies spawn with War Elephants in them).
(6) I still don't understand how the Tamil AI messed up relations with India. I easily got India to Friendly before I deliberately started to piss them off when my military build up has gained momentum. So perhaps a hidden Relations buff from India to the Tamils is probably needed.
(7) The Stability maps need to be changed. India should no longer get Yangon (and areas further east) as Historical. Instead Yangon should be Historical for Tamils (currently it is not).
(8) Possible free units/Conquerors spawning for AI Tamils at certain years (like with the Greeks/Romans/Carthaginians). That is if you wish to keep their
at ridiculously low levels. They can't even manage to build 1 Library (their UB) in 800 years.The elephants make more sense in the south anyway, and they'll get iron too.
Agreed.(2) Hidden Unit/Building production buffs for Tamils. They simply have no
Sounds reasonable.
Does it? I don't think it does.
Yep.
I'll look into their respective LHs.
Yes, their stability map was only quickly created to get things going.
I was going to do that in any case.(8) Possible free units/Conquerors spawning for AI Tamils at certain years (like with the Greeks/Romans/Carthaginians). That is if you wish to keep their
The continent borders can be moved temporarily.I have a question, how is Harappa going to work considering the Indus River divides continents?
