Current (SVN) development discussion thread

[blizzrd]

# GOVERNMENT
1. Dynasticism (Monarchy, medium): +1 happiness per military unit (+3 max)
2. City States (Literature, high): +1 food per specialist, +100% number of cities upkeep
3. Theocracy (Theology, high): +2 happiness with state religion, unlimited priests, +2 experience with state religion
4. Autocracy (Nationalism, none): +3 happiness with barracks, can draft 1 unit, +50% great general rate, +25% espionage

Suggest the draft ability here could be replaced by elimination of unhappiness due to drafting.

5. Republic (Liberalism, high): +50% great people rate, +100% cottage growth

Shouldn't Republic be available with Democracy rather than Liberalism? Liberalism seems too early.

# ORGANIZATION:
1. Vassalage (Feudalism, medium): +2 experience, +2 happiness with Castle
2. Absolutism (Civil Service, high): +40% production and commerce in capital
3. Representation (Constitution, medium): +1 free specialist
4. Totalitarianism (Fascism, none): +1 happiness per military unit (+5 max), no city distance upkeep, unlimited spies
5. Egalitarianism (Democracy, medium): +2 happiness in largest cities, +1 production from town, unhappiness for civs without Egalitarianism

Egalitarianism is a bit underwhelming for the medium upkeep. Suggest low instead of medium cost? Otherwise I would consider just staying in Representation for a very long time.

# LABOR
1. Slavery (Masonry, medium): can hurry with population, +1 commerce from plantation, slave plantation

I've never really understood why this civic is linked to Masonry. Masonry enables plenty of stuff already, what if this required Archery instead? Archery is a dead-end tech that otherwise only allows unit production.

2. Agrarianism (Calendar, low): +1 commerce from farm
3. Capitalism (Economics, medium): +2 commerce from town, +10% commerce
4. Industrialism (Industrialism, medium): +1 production from workshop, watermill, unlimited engineers, +10% production
5. Public Welfare (Communism, high): unlimited artist, scientist, merchant, +2 science per specialist, can hurry buildings with gold, double production for University, Hospital
# ECONOMY
1. Guilds (Guilds, low): +1 gold per specialist, +1 production from workshop
2. Mercantilism (Banking, high): no foreign trade routes, +25% trade route yield, +25% gold in capital, +1 commerce from workshop
3. Free Market (Corporation, medium): +1 trade route, increased corporation spread
4. Central Planning (Communism, high): +1 production per specialist, +1 food from workshop, watermill, double production for Factory, Coal Plant

Suggest add Industrial Park to buildings which are easier to build with this civic.

5. Environmentalism (Ecology, medium): -30% pollution, +2 gold from windmill, forest preserve, +1 happiness with Public Transportation, double production for Recycling Center, Hydro Plant

Should be +2 commerce from windmill/forest preserve, rather than +2 gold.
Suggest production bonus also be applied to National Park under this civic.

# RELIGION
1. Pantheon (Polytheism, medium): +1 happiness with Pagan Temple, can construct classical wonders

Suggest low rather than medium.

2. Organized Religion (Monotheism, high): +25% building speed with state religion, allows missionaries
3. Scholasticism (Philosophy, medium): +25% great people birth with state religion
4. Fanaticism (Divine Right, low): +25% unit production with state religion, no foreign religion spread
5. Secularism (Liberalism, low): +10% research, no religious unhappiness, no state religion
# MILITARY
1. Warrior Code (Horseback Riding, none): -50% war weariness, double production for Barracks, Stable

I like what you've done here, by making a otherwise dead-end tech a requirement for a key early civic.

2. Mercenaries (Currency, medium): can hurry units with gold, +1 gold upkeep per unit
3. Levy Armies (Feudalism, low): +50% improvement speed, additional free units
4. Standing Army (Military Tradition, high): +25% unit production, +2 experience
5. Conscription (Nationalism, low): can draft 2 units, +50% experience within own borders

Suggest the draft is increased to 3 units (if implement my suggestion of taking away this effect from Autocracy).
Does the Conscription draft effect stack with Tokapi Palace?

 

[Swarbs]

Industrialism might be more valuable if it was activated before Assembly Line. That way the unlimited engineers come in significantly before Factories are available. Once you have factories, getting GEs is less of a challenge. Alternatively, it could even come in with Steel or Steam Power, as the first British Industrial Revolution was arguably triggered by these inventions and took place long before the development of large scale factories.

Personally I have always seen Industrialism as something of an anachronistic tech, given that industrialism in RL occured around a hundred years before the development of the assembly line. With the new civic changes, I would rename Industrialism to Manufacturing, and have the industrialism civic available with Steam Power of Steel.

 

[blizzrd]

Industrialism might be more valuable if it was activated by Assembly Line. That way the unlimited engineers come in significantly before Factories are available.

But factories become available with Assembly Line? How would making your suggestion of activating the civic Industrialism with Assembly Line provide unlimited engineers significantly before Factories are available?

 

[Hightower]

Here's an updated list of civics with techs and upkeep:

Agrarianism seems very weak. Why would I choose it over Slavery? (Maybe if I'm China and beelined Calendar, but I'd have to switch to Slavery later anyway both for the UHV and because of all the Plantations in China.)

 

[blizzrd]

Perhaps under Scholasticism you could build missionaries with libraries or universities? That would better reflect the role of church schools in replacing monasteries as learning centres. Tho' that ability should also expire with Scientific Method to reflect the end of church education.

Great ideas.

How about adding conscripted versions of the basic gunpowder units (Musketmen, Riflemen and Infantry) that can only be built when running conscription. So when running conscription you can either build the standard unit, or you can build a conscripted version which consumes food as well as production. Essentially adding three more Levy type units. That way the production poor civ has the choice of which way to build their units.

It would also avoid the problem of conscripting tanks, ships and aircraft using food!

I was thinking more along the lines of how society was forced onto war rations during times of Conscription. I know it's a bit of a stretch to build a warship out of scrap metal, but that was the sort of propaganda that was put to the populace during WW2 to encourage them to embrace the war effort. Hence I think the use of food to build any units under Conscription would actually be an OK representation of putting the populace on war rations.

 

[Swarbs]

But factories become available with Assembly Line? How would making your suggestion of activating the civic Industrialism with Assembly Line provide unlimited engineers significantly before Factories are available?

Should have read "before Assembly Line".

If you read the rest of my post, you'll see I suggested Industrialism should activate with Steam Power or Steel.

 

[blizzrd]

Agrarianism seems very weak. Why would I choose it over Slavery? (Maybe if I'm China and beelined Calendar, but I'd have to switch to Slavery later anyway both for the UHV and because of all the Plantations in China.)

Good point. Perhaps it needs to also provide food bonus to irrigated plains?

 

[blizzrd]

Should have read "before Assembly Line".

If you read the rest of my post, you'll see I suggested Industrialism should activate with Steam Power or Steel.

That makes more sense. I did read the rest of your post, just ended up confused by the initial bit.

 

[Swarbs]

I was thinking more along the lines of how society was forced onto war rations during times of Conscription. I know it's a bit of a stretch to build a warship out of scrap metal, but that was the sort of propaganda that was put to the populace during WW2 to encourage them to embrace the war effort. Hence I think the use of food to build any units under Conscription would actually be an OK representation of putting the populace on war rations.

But war rations and conscription were completely different things. Rationing was introduced because of food shortages amongst the general populace due to disrupted supply lines. It was nothing to do with conscripting soldiers, which was to boost the size of the army. If we were to represent rationing, this would be an social civic, which would reduce the volume of food consumed by citizens, or compensate for poor public health due to blockades.

What you're referring to was the process of putting the populace on a war footing and gearing production towards the military. But that's already reflected by Standing Army, with the greater military production.

 

[Swarbs]

That makes more sense. I did read the rest of your post, just ended up confused by the initial bit.

Fair enough. Have changed it now!

 

[Leoreth]

Personally I have always seen Industrialism as something of an anachronistic tech, given that industrialism in RL occured around a hundred years before the development of the assembly line.

Industrialism and Industrialization are two different things though.

Agrarianism seems very weak. Why would I choose it over Slavery? (Maybe if I'm China and beelined Calendar, but I'd have to switch to Slavery later anyway both for the UHV and because of all the Plantations in China.)

True. The original idea was to have it synergize with the food for military unit production effect of Levy Armies. Maybe I'll bring it back after all.

 

[Rorgloin]

I had an idea for civics but I don't know if it would work: currently the starting civics (tyranny etc) have no bonuses. Could they be different for each civ? That would allow, for instance, the Romans to start with the Roman Republic Civic, Italy to start with a unique Merchant Republic civic, and so on. They would be inferior to the civics discovered later after spawn and could have negative aspects too, but they would allow for some additional more unique forms of government to be represented. It might not be possible, though, if civics must be uniform for all civilizations.

 

[SheaferDaDawg]

Oooooooh...............ah...........pretty civics...........

In all seriousness though, this sounds like one of those ideas that would be a lot of fun but hard to implement and balance. The idea of a unique civic to add to unique power is interesting to be sure, but many civs would need this unique civic a few hundred years after spawn. China might have the myriad dynasties civic or some such, but at 3000 bc the only civic that fits is tribalism. On the other hand, if these were implemented well, then it could certainly make each civ that much more unique.

 

[Swarbs]

Industrialism and Industrialization are two different things though.

Exactly! Industrialism is a social system which is a) not a technology, and b) was developed far before the in game technology. Industrialism is more about the promotion of industry ahead of agriculture, services, trade and social welfare.

That's why I think it's great to have Industrialism as a civic, but that it shouldn't be linked to Industrialism the technology, which is more a reflection of large scale manufacturing industries which develop in all countries, regardless of whether they follow industrialism or not. The current civilopedia entry for Industrialism reflects this, referring to industrialisation and manufacturing throughout.

Hence I think Industrialism as a civic should activate with Steel or Steam Power (probably Steam Power), whereas the current Industrialism tech is inaccurately named and should be renamed Manufacturing or maybe Machine Production. From a pure gameplay POV that would also make Industrialism much more valuable for the unlimited engineers before you have factories or industrial parks.

 

[Leoreth]

Somehow missed this post before:

Suggest the draft ability here could be replaced by elimination of unhappiness due to drafting.
Shouldn't Republic be available with Democracy rather than Liberalism? Liberalism seems too early.

I'm thinking Dutch Republic here.

Egalitarianism is a bit underwhelming for the medium upkeep. Suggest low instead of medium cost? Otherwise I would consider just staying in Representation for a very long time.

The civic unhappiness should eventually force you into it, similar to Emancipation in BtS which has an even worse effect.

Suggest the draft is increased to 3 units (if implement my suggestion of taking away this effect from Autocracy).
Does the Conscription draft effect stack with Tokapi Palace?

It's already three units in game, because the map size also factors in. And all draft effects stack.

Exactly! Industrialism is a social system which is a) not a technology, and b) was developed far before the in game technology. Industrialism is more about the promotion of industry ahead of agriculture, services, trade and social welfare.

When I think Industrialism I think of the heavy industry focused economic policies of former Soviet block countries, hence all the synergy with Central Planning.

 

[Tigranes]

Did Phoenicians get any UP redesign in view of recent changes?

 

[Leoreth]

Not yet, but they will get one at some point.

I think they should start with Mercenaries and receive -50% unit hurry cost.

 

[Tigranes]

Yeah, that would be neat. The unfortunate side effect of mercenary removal will be the absence of many local units one cannot train regularly (such as Mohawks)...

 

[Leoreth]

Maybe I can integrate them into the mechanic somehow later on. Or create a general mechanic for region specific units.

 

[Swarbs]

When I think Industrialism I think of the heavy industry focused economic policies of former Soviet block countries, hence all the synergy with Central Planning.

I see what you mean, but I think of it more as the general move of the economy, and particularly the labour force, away from an agricultural economy and towards an industrial one. Which is essentially the Industrial Revolution and the various concious decisions taken by many developing nations to industrialise.

I think the heavy industry focused Soviet approach is better reflected in the bonus to factory and coal plant production from Central Planning, which reflects the Soviet approach of "every city must have some heavy industry". That didn't actually lead to increased efficiency of production, it just lead to more production infrastructure. It was the activities of early industrialists like Carnegie and David Thomas in areas like coal and steel which really boosted production efficiency. Hence I think it should start with earlier techs.

As it stands, I think if the civic Industrialism is only available with the technology Industrialism then it is quite underwhelming. A 10% bonus to production and unlimited Engineers isn't much in the late game if you already have factories and probably power for major production cities. Especially when you can get 25% boosts with OR and Standing Armies. It's main use would be to boost production before factories, and also specialise GEs in the mid game before you have them easily available with factories.

Perhaps Industrialism could also include a production boost to factories, to reflect both the early industrialists and the Soviet planned model?