Curse the lands

[[to_xp]Gekko]

it is a scions game, but the scions are not in this game. the guys that seemed to love the dowsing the most are Dain of the Amurites and Daracaat , and a couple others but it was less noticeable for them ( alexis, hannah the irin ) . 8 civs on the map. the others were mazatl ( me ) , charadon, arendel phaedra and the Cualli.

 

[Vehem]

it is a scions game, but the scions are not in this game. the guys that seemed to love the dowsing the most are Dain of the Amurites and Daracaat , and a couple others but it was less noticeable for them ( alexis, hannah the irin ) . 8 civs on the map. the others were mazatl ( me ) , charadon, arendel phaedra and the Cualli.

Aye - even if the Scions aren't in-game, the artifacts are still spawned (same as the Pearls when Lanun aren't around). The AI knows that there's a resource it can use that it can't see, so it keeps hunting for it (they think that they can actually use the Patrian Artifacts for 5 turns at a time because there's no prereq for "CityTrade" just for "Reveal".

If you go to Assets\XML\Terrain\Civ4BonusInfos.xml and find "BONUS_SC1", there's an entry for "<TechCityTrade>" which is currently "NONE". If you change that to be the same as "<TechReveal>" (currently "TECH_SC1"), the AI will realize that it can't realistically use the resource and will stop trying to reveal it constantly.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

I see, thanx for the suggestion Vehem, I'll change it right away.
Tarquelne should be told about this so he can fix it in his next release I guess
is this gonna work with an already-started game btw?

 

[Vehem]

[QUOTE='[to_xp]is this gonna work with an already-started game btw?[/QUOTE]

*should* work. If not, you can always change it back to NONE and that definitely should.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

it works nice - just checked

 

[Brokenbone]

My knowledge of modification / customization of the game could fit into a thimble, so I ask what may be a silly question: is there a simple way for an end user like myself to go into any file and edit the costs of one or both of Curse the Land and Appease Divinity, just to playtest different options?

Example: jack up the Curse cost, reduce the Appease cost, if finding this just too hard a hump to get over?

I've felt the sting of getting dogpiled with everyone managing to Curse me, and every time I've almost dug out with all these Appeasements, get another 5 turns added by another Curse. Basically it becomes a curse management game, not awfully fun. Sure makes me spiteful though, just roll my army through offender territory and raze every city I find, with the hopes of destroying what amounts to Curse production centres.

 

[xienwolf]

It is very easy to modify the costs.

The file you want to change is Assets\XML\Gameinfo\CIV4ProjectInfo.xml

 

[Brokenbone]

Perfect, thank you. Based on what I'm seeing in that file, I have the strong sense I could fool around and tie anything I wanted to different techs. Example, if "Appeasement" had something really low and accessible required for it, like Mysticism, or if the "Curse" itself required something higher like Priesthood, or even something really quite high (but thematically appropriate) like Malevolent Designs OR Righteousness. Dabbling with curses seems kind of evil, though I guess if it was a good leader laying a smackdown on an evil civ, I guess orcs having their wells dry up, their crops wither, their mines collapsing, all dandy under a D&D-ish alignment system.

Again though if there were tech prereqs you'd at least want to know that it was easier to dig yourself out of one of these, than to create a curse.... otherwise weak enemies would always be stuck in a curse.

Anyhow, thanks for IDing the file.

 

[Skiamach]

Would it be feasible to make the curse have a smaller effect, say 2 or 3 health and unhappiness to each city, and each curse be cumulative. And the appeasements would only negate a similar proportion. You could adjust the cost of the curse to be lower to compensate.

I was also thinking rather than the curse removing access to resources altogether, it would simply be an added effect - similar to the way blight was changed from removing resources from the map to just adding (a lot of) unhealthiness.

 

[Aroldo]

The ritual was designed knowing that balancing would be needed after initial launch, but keep in mind that you can only use it 3 times (now, used to be 5), and the main point of it was to encourage players to maintain good diplomacy, and make their wars short, quick affairs.


2 (Major): Force players to remember that there is Diplomacy in the game, and it is important. If you get into a war, it should be a quick war with a specific target, and you should have more buddies to back you up than the other guy does. Get in, get done, get out.

In principle, I´m not against this ritual. Rituals in generals are nice, since they give new options without requiring micromanaging. However there´s something that doesn´t convince me in the way it is thought out - can´t say anything specific about the way it works in-game, since lately I haven´t been playing.
The problem is, why would you force players to fight short wars? Why should a war be a quick affair at all? War weariness should already somehow take into account the fact that prolonged wars cripple your empire.
Also, question: can it be cast only when on the defensive? I think it´d be appropriate.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

Would it be feasible to make the curse have a smaller effect, say 2 or 3 health and unhappiness to each city, and each curse be cumulative. And the appeasements would only negate a similar proportion. You could adjust the cost of the curse to be lower to compensate.

I was also thinking rather than the curse removing access to resources altogether, it would simply be an added effect - similar to the way blight was changed from removing resources from the map to just adding (a lot of) unhealthiness.

I like this idea - don't want it to replace the current Curse the Lands, but a blight-like ritual would be kinda cool

 

[Ahriman]

I would definitely support having the ritual's effect be a happiness penalty and health penalty, that slowly reduced in effect every turn (like the health penalty from blight).
I hate how it makes it so it doesn't matter how many resources I've got, my cities are still plunged into mass starvation and uselessness.
Its even worse because most happy/health building infrastructure actually boosts gains from resources (like granary, smokehouse, harbor, temples with +1 happy from incense, etc.).

I'd also like so see you be able to buy/whip the appeasment spells.

 

[Tarquelne]

1 (minor): Make Magic have a large-scale effect on the Wars in the world, as is fitting thematically.

I really, really like that. A lot.
I'd wanted to give some things like that to the Scions, for example - (thus Pelemoc, who's part way there) - but didn't want them to be the only ones. And didn't want to do all the work on adding such things for other civs, too. (Probably not up to the coding work, anyway.)

Anyway, "w00t!"

2 (Major): Force players to remember that there is Diplomacy in the game, and it is important.

"Diplomacy" is what happens when you set the difficulty level too high, right?

I was playing some BTS games and, after a disastrous first game - relearning this whole "Food" thing - lowered the difficulty level. The following two games had no need for diplomacy.... so I think trying to penalize warmongering's a good idea.

"Bad boy" is a useful concept, too.

Another idea was to set the amount of appeasement required to be capped at either the number of cities you currently have or at 5 (whichever is lower) - that way a small empire can clear the block at the cost of a couple of rituals,

An excellent idea.

Scions game?

They're obsessed with finding the Patrian Artifacts...

Heh heh heh.

It's been fixed now (and thanks, guys), but,
Heh heh heh.

 

[xienwolf]

I do believe that I see the crux of the issue finally. I created a weapon, and I created a cure. But I did NOT create a DEFENSE.

Next version out will have some hefty refinement to the rituals, one of which will be to introduce a defense against Rituals in general, initially balanced to ensure that it can be an effective tool for keeping your opponent from Cursing you.

 

[Valkrionn]

That sounds amazing. Should help to balance it.

 

[MaxAstro]

Another idea was to set the amount of appeasement required to be capped at either the number of cities you currently have or at 5 (whichever is lower)

This is probably a good idea, if only for the poor, poor people who play One City Challenge and have this cast on them. XD

 

[Mailbox]

so I think trying to penalize warmongering's a good idea.

I definitely agree with this.

 

[Ahriman]

I do believe that I see the crux of the issue finally. I created a weapon, and I created a cure. But I did NOT create a DEFENSE.

Next version out will have some hefty refinement to the rituals, one of which will be to introduce a defense against Rituals in general, initially balanced to ensure that it can be an effective tool for keeping your opponent from Cursing you.

Good call. That is one of the main problems with this mechanic.
If my opponent starts building the ritual, I should be able to start building something that will prevent the effect of it or at least severely blunt it.

I think the other problem with the ritual is that it punishes players relatively MORE who have made more effort to get resources.
If you've built just power cities and haven't used diplomacy to get resources, the ritual hits you relatively weakly. But if you've been building suboptimally placed cities to get better resource access, or have been using diplomacy heavily to trade for lots of resources, you are punshed relatively more, because you lose much more in terms of happiness and health.

So in this sense it *punishes* diplomacy. If I tell all my allies to go to hell when they demand things from me and so am unable to trade, I lose less than I do if I give my neighbors lots of goodies so that they are willing to trade resources with me.

 

[zup]

Thread resurrection!

How can Bannor cope with this ritual? Their crusades are not quick and simple affairs. Rather, they last hundreds of turns if done correctly.

 

[Vehem]

Thread resurrection!

How can Bannor cope with this ritual? Their crusades are not quick and simple affairs. Rather, they last hundreds of turns if done correctly.

They probably couldn't very well under the old system...

...which is why it's getting a major overhaul. Lets just say that if the Bannor are good little Order followers and build themselves plenty of temples and basilica's - they'll be less worried about rituals...