Custom Leaderhead Development Thread

[lemmy101]

When they were developing the FBX import they used an FBX I generated off of blender.

....

Funnily enough this is the one exact bit of info that would have been handy before we spent literally an entire weekend of solid work trying to work all this stuff out.

Thanks.

 

[CaptainBinky]

I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry.

(it's cry)

 

[lemmy101]

Sorry I feel a bit better now I've blown off some steam about it.

Of course this just didn't occur to you to mention beforehand for whatever reason, it wasn't like you were withholding this info purposefully, so sorry for being so confrontational about it.

 

[Ekmek]

First off, FBX was chosen because it was a stable format. I had no clue that there were updates to it (blender doesnt do it) and I dont have 3dmax so FBX updates arent on my radar. How was I to know that FBX would be the problem.

Then, there is the issue of the NDA and I wasnt sure if I was allowed to divulge the development side of it (and I'm still wondering if I crossed the line).

On another note I was not around/online for most of the work you guys did last week (my last post was October 7th if you check). Note, I usually post when I do check in.

But I'm grateful for your work and I trie dto help such as point out the stategraph and the residual info problem i had. If you could actually piece together the bugs you discovered I'll send it firaxis and hopefully that'll speed the process to release the patch.

So if blowing off steam made feel better then I'm happy.

Anything else that we might need to know?

what else are you having problems with? I've told firaxis that its a pain that you can edit materials and animations when you import but when you view an asset you can see those options to compare.

As afar as bone structure I didnt know they linked them to shaders but i can tell you a leader scene/character can have up to 1000 bones

and they must handle multiple materials somehow because if you load napoleon or alexander they have th echaracter and the horse which use different textures. But looking at washington they seem to have multiple fxsxmls for different objects with different meshes.

on another note with this modded dll have you guys tried generationg something you can get in game with it?

Finally, I've been contemplating about asking firaxis what you found in the dll but i dont want you guys to get in trouble. i could try to see if its okay for you guys to make an unofficial patch if you are interested.

 

[CaptainBinky]

Oh, I'm not saying you should have been able to predict where the problem was - just that we're dealing with a million variables, any one of which could be causing problems. So being able to nail anything down as "this definitely is correct" means that we can identify the source of the actual problem much much much more rapidly. Knowing what 3D software was used to make the benchmark test file is, well, that's a big deal.

Since the gr2 files had Max 2010 as the source software, it never occurred to me that a Max FBX exporter could be the root of the problem since I couldn't possibly anticipate that Firaxis would go outside the studio for the 'benchmark' export test file. And what's a more sensible assumption about the software likely to have been used at Firaxis? 3DS Max, Maya, XSI... or a freeware bit of software?

Anyway, it doesn't matter now. In terms of "what else", well I don't know what else will pose a problem yet, but if you know anything about bone name conventions, unit scale, any other quirky things like that which could potentially be important... well, there's no such thing as too *much* information (not in this context, at least)

In terms of materials, I've had no more success seeing materials correctly in the asset viewer than I do when I import. The test model posted earlier, Lemmy and I had to transfer a working shader from the rifleman unit gr2 in code in order to get a texture and lighting to display correctly.

We've not taken any of this stuff in-game yet because the way we've done it so far, we've had to hack things about a bit.

(and for what it's worth, I'm very happy about the FBX format being used for import. It's a very good transferable format)

 

[Ploeperpengel]

Then, there is the issue of the NDA and I wasnt sure if I was allowed to divulge the development side of it (and I'm still wondering if I crossed the line).

I'm pretty sure the NDA doesn't prevent you from posting info that might be relevant to use the tools properly as long it's related to how they're used or supposed to be used what worked and what not. Nobody asks you to share info on how the tools where created or any background regarding designdecisions. That you used Blender and that worked clearly falls into the first category of info that you should be able to distribute freely here so I wouldn't bother too much about that.

@lemmy
The "keep it up platitude" I think came from me and was meant as sincere encouragement since as of now the nexus asset viewer doesn't work AT ALL on my system I'm unable to help in any other way as much I liked to.

But I too wished there was more documentation effort from poeple involved with Frankenstein regarding the artproductionpipeline. So far I just see Kael and Dale providing tutorials but they clearly are alien to this side of moddevelopement.

 

[jaldaen]

CaptainBinky,

King Alfred the Great looks... well great!

I'm working on a Portugal mod... and strangely enough Alfred and Manuel I of Portugal look surprisingly similar. Once you finish let me know and I might use Alfred as a Manuel I sub (with your permission of course).

Best Wishes,
Joseph

 

[lemmy101]

@lemmy
The "keep it up platitude" I think came from me and was meant as sincere encouragement since as of now the nexus asset viewer doesn't work AT ALL on my system I'm unable to help in any other way as much I liked to.

Aw no I'm sorry the only thing I knew about Frankenstein members on here was me, Binky and wira weren't and Ekmek was, I wasn't actually thinking things through who could be in the crossfire or who my comments may be applied to while I was blowing off steam. I wasn't insinuating that any encouragements were insincere or unappreciated because they were.

cheers to Ekmek: Re: unofficial patch I'm not sure how useful it would be, as I say, until the material editor is fixed, the problem in which is sadly black boxed in a non CLI exe.

So I'd ask if you could point Firaxis at this thread I'm not so worried about the unofficial patch, after all I have refused to distribute it.

 

[Ekmek]

I'd ask if you could point Firaxis at this thread but rather than worry about the unofficial patch I'm more concerned I come across a proper dick now.

I volunteered to the firaxis guys that I'd funnel bugs/issus related to nexus tools to them so they can spend more time coding and less time browsing.

So I'm in the process of trying to jot down everything you guys discovered in the dll.

 

[lemmy101]

I volunteered to the firaxis guys that I'd funnel bugs/issus related to nexus tools to them so they can spend more time coding and less time browsing.

So I'm in the process of trying to jot down everything you guys discovered in the dll.

Okay well, assuming they've not had chance to look into it yet (this problem may well already be fixed their end) the bug was in AssetDocument::CollectAnimations()

foreach (IGrannyAnimation animation in item.Animations)
{
   animation.Name = this.Document.GetAttrib(node2, "name"); // < name always being set to "temp" from the temp xml file created in CreateTempXML()                 
   animation.EventCodes.AddRange(ecs);
}

which means later on in AssetImportContext::CreateOutputFiles each of the animations is checked to see if it should be inserted into the new anim granny files, by checking if they match the animation name from the proper xml file and since each anim is internally called 'temp' none of them ever pass, so each granny anim file ends up empty.

Since the anims already have the correct name in them when loaded from the exporter.temp.gr2, I just removed the commented line and it worked. Not sure if this would have other repercussions, that line was there for a reason I'm sure, but anim exporting seems 100% working now.

 

[lemmy101]

on another note with this modded dll have you guys tried generationg something you can get in game with it?

In theory yes. However there's a fair bit of work in setting up all the anim / state graphs we've not gotten around to trying to get it in-game yet, but as far as we know we have a game ready asset and in theory adding units, though not leaders, is possible providing they only have one material / texture. As Binky said, we had to hack the rifleman material onto our test model and alter the file path to the TextureMap in code to get a working material, so to do this on a leader with numerous materials would be a real headache (though potentially possible) so we'd rather wait till the material editor was working for that.

 

[Ekmek]

In theory yes. However there's a fair bit of work in setting up all the anim / state graphs we've not gotten around to trying to get it in-game yet, but as far as we know we have a game ready asset and in theory adding units, though not leaders, is possible providing they only have one material / texture. As Binky said, we had to hack the rifleman material onto our test model and alter the file paths in it in code to get a working material, so to do this on a leader would be a real headache (though potentially possible) so we'd rather wait till the material editor was working for that.

It might beeasier to start with adding a wonder then. it has the limited shader and no need for an animation. Just to get some 3d model in game would atleast show we've tracked down the major bug IMO.

 

[lemmy101]

It might beeasier to start with adding a wonder then. it has the limited shader and no need for an animation. Just to get some 3d model in game would atleast show we've tracked down the major bug IMO.

I may be wrong but, since animations were the main bug and wonders are not animated, wouldn't wonder creation have been perfectly possible before this?

EDIT: Oh you mean the hacking material thingy.

 

[Ploeperpengel]

Aw no I'm sorry the only thing I knew about Frankenstein members on here was me, Binky and wira weren't and Ekmek was, I wasn't actually thinking things through who could be in the crossfire or who my comments may be applied to while I was blowing off steam. I wasn't insinuating that any encouragements were insincere or unappreciated because they were. It's probably just 'cause I'm a bit jealous that I'm not on the Frankenstein team. ;D

Sorry to everyone and cheers to Ekmek: Re: unofficial patch I'm not sure how useful it would be, as I say, until the material editor is fixed, the problem in which is sadly black boxed in a non CLI exe.

So I'd ask if you could point Firaxis at this thread but rather than worry about the unofficial patch, after all I have refused to distribute it, I'm more concerned I come across a proper dick now.

Err no wasn't with Frankenstein this time, just bts. but you used my exact wording "keep it up bla bla" so I felt somehow touched by your blow of steam post earlier even if it wasn't directed towards myself.

Nonetheless if I could help you I would it's just this damn nexus tool runs even worse on my system than on other systems that's why I can't atm. Maybe after the tools get another patch I hope I can contribute a little more here.

 

[CaptainBinky]

Well, textures don't show up for me in the Nexus Asset Viewer regardless of whether I use a unit shader, building shader, skinned, or unskinned. So getting a static object in game is no more possible than a skinned unit at the moment. Both would require a shader hack, and given that I've already completely broken my riflemen in-game, I'd prefer not to ruin any more units

Unless we're talking months until a Nexus patch, in which case I'll probably get impatient and ruin a whole bunch of different units. I can always reinstall the game if it all goes completely bonkers

 

[Ekmek]

I may be wrong but, since animations were the main bug and wonders are not animated, wouldn't wonder creation have been perfectly possible before this?

EDIT: Oh you mean the hacking material thingy.

I wish they were. but I took a yert building graphic added a vertex to it (because it wouldn't import a civ4 building without a vertex for some reason) and then tried to put in game and it would not show, game loaded the file find but never showed t on the map like wonders should (I mapped it as replacement to pyramids in the main xml file to make sure it wasnt a mod loading issue). hopefully its because the fxsxml wasnt generating the proper headers as you guys found out. but I'm not so sure. I think wirapuru tried with a sphere and it didnt show

 

[Louis XXIV]

As someone with only the most minimal amounts of programing experience (I would say basic experience, but then people would be confused if I'm making a pun or not), I just have to say threads like this fascinate me. The idea of figuring out things like this (even simple bug fixing) seems foreign but interesting (yeah, I'm sure an actually programmer thinks of it being as fun as having teeth pulled, but, to be it's entirely exotic).

Ekmek, thanks for being the conduit to Firaxis. At the moment, you're actually our only real connection. I realize the developers are busy and the 2K PR people are a combination of busy and perhaps realize that posting here could have as many negative consequences as positive ones. But it's nice to know that there's still this tie to the community here just to filter word through that something is being done.

 

[SamBC]

As someone with only the most minimal amounts of programing experience (I would say basic experience, but then people would be confused if I'm making a pun or not), I just have to say threads like this fascinate me. The idea of figuring out things like this (even simple bug fixing) seems foreign but interesting (yeah, I'm sure an actually programmer thinks of it being as fun as having teeth pulled, but, to be it's entirely exotic).

Speaking as a programmer, it's actually like dealing with an awkward utility company... stressful, difficult, possibly even traumatic, but immensely rewarding when successful, to the point where it generally seems worth it. It's also harder (but less soul-destroying) when it's someone else's code.

 

[cybrxkhan]

I just wanted to say a big thank you to everybody here, especially Ekmek, who's trying real hard to make leaderheads (or shouldn't it be leaderbodies or something like that?) a real possibility for Civ5. I may be able to learn how to make a leader only because of tutorials, but I am definitely unable to do the kind of code-sorting, figuring-out kind of business you guys are doing here.

So thanks again.

 

[Lord Shadow]

You have my warmest appreciation as well! I've been eager to reskin a bunch of units for my mod, but everything's so inexplicably complicated, skinning-wise, compared to Civ4. However, on this thread I've seen you're pretty much constantly making progress towards opening graphical modding. Glad we have so many talented, resourceful individuals working on this!

Godspeed!