Death Thread II: The Second Death.

[Borachio]

^ I often ask that one, Mr Dust. I've yet to receive an answer to it.

The road to hell is paved with certainty, I think. But who knows? Maybe it's paved with uncertainty, too.

*sigh* So many questions! So little time!

 

[Tigranes]

But if God allows suffering, albeit Man-created, when she could eliminate it, as surely she could if she chose, being omnipotent, how can she still be described as benevolent?

*Or is it Satan, eh? In which case, who created Satan, and why does God permit Satan-created suffering? Or maybe, God isn't really benevolent? Or is she not really omnipotent?

Why she? Irony, neglect?

So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? from where then has it tares? He said unto them, An enemy has done this. The servants said unto him, Will you then that we go and gather them up?
But he said, Nay; lest while you gather up the tares, you root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather you together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Imagine your head hurts. You are a 'god" for your head. Would you prefer to cut it and get rid of the suffering? Or try to cure until it's cured?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I didn't get any of that

 

[El_Machinae]

Another question I came up with.

You must be pretty sure of yourself to state all what you're stating. How did you get this certainty that what you're saying is right? Have you considered you may be wrong and you'd be telling people all kinds of falsehoods with the best of intentions? Would: "I don't know what I'm talking about either, it's just my take on it, seeing how many different ones there are even from my fellow theists, chances are I'm probably wrong on many accounts", be more honest?

Remember the paving of the road to hell.

There's honesty, and then there's utility. Ostensibly, if the insights are 'untrue' and still followed without sufficient evidence there's a subset of insights that could be life improving if they're followed.

 

[Borachio]

So, you're saying it comes down to how much we value truth for its own sake?

I'm going with truth over utility every time, I guess. Cost me what it may.

But "Honestly, my dear, your bum doesn't look big in that dress. Not at all." (The dress has nothing to do with it. It's just a large bum on its own.)

I was talking about metaphysical truth not the everyday be nice to people "truth", though. Still, maybe they're the same?

 

[Tigranes]

^ I often ask that one, Mr Dust. I've yet to receive an answer to it.

The road to hell is paved with certainty, I think. But who knows? Maybe it's paved with uncertainty, too.

*sigh* So many questions! So little time!

You do receive answers, but you refuse to consider them -- yet alone accept them. Truth hurts. But you would rather have a good time.

 

[El_Machinae]

So, you're saying it comes down to how much we value truth for its own sake?

I'm going with truth over utility every time, I guess.

I often do, too. I work in medical research, though, and I've seen some really great benefits from placebo. Great enough that it makes me question the motto "I'm going with truth over utility every time, I guess"

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

There's honesty, and then there's utility. Ostensibly, if the insights are 'untrue' and still followed without sufficient evidence there's a subset of insights that could be life improving if they're followed.

Most definitely. And at the same time, they could not be.

But I'm not really taking about life improving (which would be the only important aspect for me as an atheist) but I'm talking from a believer's perspective.

What if you found out you were delivering the wrong message. What if God actually despises those who do not love their fellow man first and foremost for instance. If the message simply is: be good for goodness sake, or be good for God's sake, what do I care what the motivator is?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Truth hurts. But you would rather have a good time.

This is what I'm talking about Tiggy Baby.

You have denominated yourself as the keeper of Truth, and denominated Mr. B as someone who just wants a good time.

 

[Borachio]

I often do, too. I work in medical research, though, and I've seen some really great benefits from placebo. Great enough that it makes me question the motto "I'm going with truth over utility every time, I guess"

Good point! And if you give me a placebo, I'm more than happy to take it. They truly do work.

The corollary is the nocebo.

For those who don't know.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Even when knowing it's a placebo.

The Universe makes a lot of sense, humans, we're weird.

 

[Tigranes]

Sure you did. Except I am missing something, my null hypothesis is clearly failing me, my very own personal death is a very, very serious problem in any personal atheistic philosophy I may come up with. You start with: "Let's try to understand together, shall we?" and then go on telling me. Which very much reads as if you're addressing a slow wit: lets see if we can solve this puzzle together little Timmy.

There is a strange fixation about world "little" with you. No matter what I say creates this impression in you But reality is this . We both work on the same math problem, you are showing me your page and saying here, I say no dude, plug it back into equation, this answer will not check, you want to solve Complex Analysis problem using real numbers only. We need more than real part, we need imaginary numbers somewhere. You go like -- you got something better, big bully? I am like, why, here, we have a solution in the book. Let's plug it back into equation, it may take a life time to check it, by I trust the author, we wont be ashamed at the end. You like no, this is BS, book's answer still does not check as far as I see it. And author has no credibility with me. He does not exist, if you want to know what I think. I am like -- take a second look, all this does make sense. And you go like -- are u calling me slow wit?

 

[Borachio]

You do receive answers, but you refuse to consider them -- yet alone accept them. Truth hurts. But you would rather have a good time.

This is absolute nonsense.

Believe me, I'm spent most of my life thinking of this stuff.

And the truth doesn't hurt. It sets you free.

It's still a bit of wriggly fellow, though, truth is.

I know one, maybe two, things for sure. How many do you know?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

There is a strange fixation about world "little" with you.

Oh, that's just because of the size of my penis.

No matter what I say creates this impression in you But reality is this . We both work on the same math problem, you are showing me your page and saying here, I say no dude, plug it it back into equation, this answer does not check. You go like -- you got something better, big bully? I am like, why, here, we have a solution in the book. You like no, this is BS, book's answer still does no check as far as I see it. I am like -- take a second look, it does. And you go like -- are u calling me slow wit?

Dear Tigranes,

in your very analogy you are the one who has the answer, and I am the one who refuses to see the answer. The word little doesn't create this impression, the words you write do. And you just did again. I don't want to take that second look and escape into accusing you of calling me a slow-wit. I just fail to see the truth you're displaying. I just keep on treating this as a two-way street while I clearly should be going: Ah I see Mr. Tigranes. Thanks for explaining this to me.

So, now back to the studio:
Why does God allow Hell to exist? Does it think it's a just punishment?

Why would Satan create a nasty place which punishes those who don't love God? If Satan created Hell it must be awesome. It would reward those who don't love God right?

 

[timtofly]

What is your source for satan creating hell? God did not create it, but Jesus said in Matthew 25 that fire was prepared for satan and his angel followers. The point where death is torment was established by Jesus in the circumstance of two humans going there (Luke 16). Abraham had a conversation in a place where there was fire separated from a place that did not, but both individuals where able to communicate with each other. I am not sure how one would take this figuratively. The best figure we get is that there is suffering in the afterlife for some and not for others? Even if hell is not real, the story is the first example of virtual reality where those involved with having physical bodies were able to experience existence as if they did have. Thus, at it's worse, the concept is re-enforced that God does allow suffering to go on forever. At it's best would be total separation from life and God. In Revelation 20:14 we get to the final step in the lake of fire, the second death. The picture being painted is the earth being swallowed up by the sun. The next chapter talks about a new heaven and a new earth.

Your reasoning, although somehow familiar, is very strange.

If God doesn't create a suffering world, who does? (I'll guess the answer is Man*, right?)

But if God allows suffering, albeit Man-created, when she could eliminate it, as surely she could if she chose, being omnipotent, how can she still be described as benevolent?

*Or is it Satan, eh? In which case, who created Satan, and why does God permit Satan-created suffering? Or maybe, God isn't really benevolent? Or is she not really omnipotent?

'Tis a conundrum, I assure you.

Cue some hand-waving about free will, now.

Should the question be, "Why does God let any one get their way?"

 

[Tigranes]

This is what I'm talking about Tiggy Baby.

You have denominated yourself as the keeper of Truth, and denominated Mr. B as someone who just wants a good time.

I was specifically alluding to this.

His truth does not hurt him. He is a good person, he thinks it is enough. That's his truth. I don't think I am any better than him. But even if I am it is still not good enough. If he is 1000 and I am 1001 -- we still infinitely far from plus infinity. If the only thing that required from us is infinity there is only one way there:

Infinity+1001 = Infinity.

Holy God cannot be in contact with sinful man, like Infinite matter cannot be in contact with finite antimatter, without antimatter being annihilated. But He has given you a clear choice, trust that He can mold you into matter, and ask Him and He will, or ignore His sacrifice, and suffer the consequences of natural law.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

That's comforting to hear

I did ask a whole lot of times you see. So, I'm in. "ask Him and He will". Never responded though, so it must be that God pretty much approves of the way I live my life.

Thanks Tigranes, no Hell for Ziggy after all

 

[Borachio]

I was specifically alluding to this.

His truth does not hurt him. He is a good person, he thinks it is enough. That's his truth. I don't think I am any better than him. But even if I am it is still not good enough. If he is 1000 and I am 1001 -- we still infinitely far from plus infinity. If the only thing that required from us is infinity there is only one way there:

Really? I'm totally lost now. You're no better than I am but I'm 1000 and you're 1001? Ooer!

And me a "good person"?! You don't mean me, surely? Seriously?

I don't get this one little (looking at you, Mr Dust) bit. Good person, bad person. Meh! "Judge not lest ye be judged", and all that.

trust that He can mold you into matter, and ask Him and He will, or ignore His sacrifice, and suffer the consequences of natural law.

You know, sometimes I almost get this sort of reasoning, but then, you see, it does rather represent an abandonment of free will. Oh dear me! Yet another little conundrum for you, right there.

And, taking a slight tangent, how do you know that your "Him" is the real "Him" and not some other "Him" what's* masquerading as the real one, eh?

*If you'll pardon my deliberate solecism what I bunged in for effect, like.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Why you looking down there?

 

[Borachio]

I don't know.

It's like when you're in a shower room with a lot of naked men.

Honestly, it's an experience that scarred me for life. Ugly things. Naked men.

Urinals are bad enough. But at least you can stare at the ceiling. Or very nearly anywhere.