December 2020 Developer Livestream Discussion

Jeppetto

King
Joined
Dec 23, 2018
Messages
687
I think Eurekas should remove the pressure to hard-focus Science for non-Science playstyles If there's important Tech line for them. Imagine If Military Playstyle didn't reguire hard-focus on Science, but still required Tech here and there to progress. Eurekas from actions they normally make (kill this with that) reducing Science required would allow them to put Tech tree into use and not view it as feature distant to them as they don't hard-focus it, at the same time not giving out everything and for free. Likewise, Techs that could be well-used by Culture-play would have Eurekas bouncing off actions they are supposed to achieve (4 Broadcast centers, Theme Museum etc.).

The problem is that Tech progress, both realistically and gameplayly, is way too general to consider this and not all Eurekas are designed this way. I'd like them to be more about easier acces to specific Tech-line you focus on and less about "well realistically this could lead to that". I'd only prefer early game Eurekas to have that realism of "we settled near coast, we'll understand fishing and seafaring sooner than deep jungle-dwellers" since it also has the gameplay value of allowing you to rush Techs that help you take advantage of your starting location.
 

MrRadar

Deity
Joined
Nov 8, 2014
Messages
2,050
I presume they intended to write Souzerained city but got confused.
Is that even a word? I mean, I'm no native English speaker, but I somehow think that the verb you'd be looking for is 'to vassalize', that is to make somebody your vassal, while becoming that vassal's suzerain yourself. You don't suzerain somebody, because you yourself are the suzerain, you vassalize them. It's just the old words, coming from French, I suppose, that now sound fancy. Speaking in simpler terms, suzerain is a boss, and vassal is an underling. You boss around somebody put under you. :)
 

Nicc

Chieftain
Joined
Apr 29, 2019
Messages
20
I don't see the point of Eurekas if they're designed to be nearly inevitable. Wouldn't removing them from the game and cutting tech/civic costs by 40% accomplish the same thing?

Yeah a mode with harder Eurekas would be nice, especially now that they made them even easier.

Note: Eurekas are useful in Shuffle mode because they uncover their location in the tech trees.
I was thinking this as well, for most of the changes anyway. I couldn't help but notice the change from 4 to 2 entertainment complexes in particular, because in the livestream they said they want to make them more worth building. So if anything they should realize that everyone's gonna build 2 by the near-end of the civic tree. I will say though, it feels like they need to up the cost of lategame techs/civics again because it seems like science- and culture-minded empires respectively are back to ripping through them at a pace that makes eurekas irrelevant anyway.

Kind of rambling at this point but I think the new non-generic info era eurekas are a little misguided for the same reason. Can't really see an empire shooting for a science victory trying to get there on eurekas over hard science except maybe Babylon. I'm not particularly afraid of indirect buffs to Babylon as a science civ but I think they're much more interesting when played for other victory types anyway, like zeroing in on flight/radio or steel for tourism.
 

AsH2

Prince
Joined
Aug 2, 2002
Messages
486
Location
Sweden
Is that even a word? I mean, I'm no native English speaker, but I somehow think that the verb you'd be looking for is 'to vassalize', that is to make somebody your vassal, while becoming that vassal's suzerain yourself. You don't suzerain somebody, because you yourself are the suzerain, you vassalize them. It's just the old words, coming from French, I suppose, that now sound fancy. Speaking in simpler terms, suzerain is a boss, and vassal is an underling. You boss around somebody put under you. :)
Let's use suzerainee.. :rudolf:
 

acluewithout

Deity
Joined
Dec 1, 2017
Messages
3,467
Huh. Well. There you go.

Just reading these posts, it sounds like a lot of good changes.

Amenities. Keep the “no free” amenities, keep the higher positive thresholds. Bring back the earlier negative thresholds and make happy and ecstatic more valuable. Well, they all seems like pretty good changes. I imagine people could argue the finer points, but seems pretty good to me overall. I think if anyone feels further tweaks are needed they could probably just look to mods.

Secret Societies. Glad Ley Lines got buffed. Very happy about the changes to Governor titles - I think I can just leave on SS Mode now without feeling like it’s ridiculous. I still think the mode is lacking some more “intrigue” but overall the Governor titles were the biggest problem and at least that’s been addressed.

Policy Cards and Eurekas. Changes are hit and miss, but probably mostly hit. Overall pretty good.

UI changes. Each change is great, but it’s the cumulative changes that matter. Overall, I feel like the whole UI thing is massively better now. Really happy we can now turn off repeating requests and mark certain items as not for sale. Unit stuff is just gravy.

Anti-Cav Changes. Not sure if these really fix the whole AC thing, but glad something got done and I’m trying to be hopeful. I’ll probably keep using @Sostratus combat mod, so with that as well I suspect AC are pretty good.

Rationalism etc. I have mixed feelings about these changes. In some ways, this just doubles down on the earlier issues of having these arbitrary flat thresholds which distorts play. On the other hand, these changes are a nerf to Campus spam so overall probably are a good change. I dunno. I think I’ll just mark this up as a win.

Yield Creep. Yeah, yields just keep going up. Although equally you have game modes that now make the game harder. I suspect it’s hard to get the whole yield thing exactly right and at some point maybe it just gets into mod territory. Nothing to lose my mind over.

Maybe next time?
  • I’m going to keep plugging for this - please bring back Lumbermill Adjacencies. It was just this little touch of colour that the game is so much poorer without.

  • I was hoping the “no spies in ally cities” would get tweaked, so you could maybe at least place them but with more limited missions. Oh well.

  • I still think Zombies in Apocalypse Mode, or a separate Zombie mode (or Zombies and Pirates mode) is a missing opportunity.

  • I also still think Dynamic Ages could use a Normal Age so it’s less binary, but I know some disagree.
There’s a bunch of other stuff that I’d like to see too that’s all in my punch list post (see sig). But you know what? There’s a couple of changes in this update that I think probably swing it for me. I think I’m genuinely excited to play Civ again. It doesn’t take much to make me happy really.

But you know. I really wish Lumbermills could find some love with Rivers again. Just saying.


[edit: @Andrew Johnson [FXS] loving the changes to the SS Promotion names! Really nice touch! Thanks!!]
 
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Datgingah

Warlord
Joined
Jul 6, 2019
Messages
259
So the increased adjacency requirement comes just as Ley lines give twice as much power
I think i see a pattern

Yeah it’s actually an indirect way to push balance a little towards alchemical society (at least for science victories)

I don’t think it’ll be enough to compete with voidsingers/sanguine pact - but it should be more or less in line with owls of Minerva now.

I think having ley lines provide +25% production to any wonders build on/adjacent to them as part of the first unlock would be a good way to push them further into the science/great person niche it seems to have developed.
 

nzcamel

Nahtanoj the Magnificent
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Myomoto

King
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Oct 13, 2013
Messages
610
I'm looking forward to seeing the full patch notes, but it seems like finally a substantial balance update.

I'm holding out hope we'll see a similar update down the line addressing more community feedback, but just simply the 'lag' from having to push updates on multiple platforms means it's like 3-4 months at least from when they hear our feedback to implementation.

My main wish is still to see a normal age added to the Dramatic Ages mode, if it had that, I would probably play with it on 100% of the time.
 

acluewithout

Deity
Joined
Dec 1, 2017
Messages
3,467
My main wish is still to see a normal age added to the Dramatic Ages mode, if it had that, I would probably play with it on 100% of the time.

Dude. #lumbermills.

Seriously though. If FXS put a normal age into dynamic ages, I’m basically good.

A not totally OP Secret Society Mode + Dynamic Ages with a normal age, and I’ll happily play NFP all day. I’d probably add in some of the other game modes more happily too, given SS and DA would feel fairly balanced and so adding other stuff wouldn’t feel so broken. If we get a raging Barbarian mode and or corporation mode, then so much the better.

There have been some really sketchy balance decisions over the past few months. I’m glad this balance pass seems a bit better thought out.

I still think the change to no spies in allies was wrongheaded and gets walked back a bit. SS still lacks a bit of “intrigue”. And, you know, Lumbermills.
 

Galvatron

Prince
Joined
Jul 28, 2017
Messages
349
Some takeaway: all bugs should be reported at : 2kgam.es/helpme2k
I asked, if they looked at bug reports here, at Civfanatics, and they said no. So all that subforum is useless?

Yeah I had a feeling their customer assurance was stuck in 1995
 

Kjimmet

Tietäjä
Joined
Dec 27, 2017
Messages
195
Location
Finland
I forgot to make a screenshot and you now can't see it anymore in the chat log...but the official in the chat mentioned as a reply to a question in a message that one of the free updates next year will bring a change to TSL map scripts.
They forgot to remove the original livestream from YouTube so I decided to screenshot the message:
maps.PNG
 

HiRezAudio

Prince
Joined
Dec 29, 2007
Messages
522

Laurana Kanan

Don’t underestimate who I am.
Moderator
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Near the Greatest Snow on Earth
I just watched the livestream this morning and I don't think I can add much more than has already been said. One thing I haven't really seen any comments on is the Unit List and Search function added to the World Tracker. I don't know about anyone else, but compared to the Unit Tab in Infixo's Better Report Screen, this "new" feature seems woefully inadequate and honestly not particularly useful. :undecide:
 

Duke William of Normandy

King of England & Unofficial Welcoming Committee
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Jul 27, 2020
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Duke William of Normandy

King of England & Unofficial Welcoming Committee
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Jul 27, 2020
Messages
3,612
Location
Rouen, Normandy
I guess I'm the only person who liked the silly governor rush in SS?

Still, I don't mind the titles being reduced. I'm more glad that ley lines may be actually useful now.
You weren't the only one. :cry::cry: F for extra Governor Titles.
 
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