Defeating a tank with a spearman *is* realistic...

[patweb]

Another point is:
If Ewok Spearmen and Archers are able to destroy modern imperial Stromtroopers, Speederbikes and AT-STs,
why shouldn´t human spearmen be able to do the same against Tanks or MBTs?

yah, and Indiana Jones jumped out of an airplane on a dingy and landed on the ground safely, or was that 007? I forget.

 

[numskll]

I'm an older gamer. Old enough in fact that I remember when there were spear-men and let me tell you those guys were tough, much tougher than any snot-nosed tank-boy. Those tough old rascally spear-men used to beat tanks all the time. No problem. Why the Battle of Midway back in dubya-duby-two was mostly American spearmen against Japenese tanks and we all know how that worked out . . . at least those of us old enough to remember . . .

 

[Zinegata]

Personally, I'm tempted to say that Firaxis really ought to find a way to make it impossible for a spearman to kill a tank. Either make the odds so lopsided for the spearman in all cases or have the spearman be automatically upgraded to some poorly armed modern equivalent when the modern era rolls along (i.e. partisans).

Why? Because not doing so encourages threads such as this. Threads such as this makes a strategy game community look like a brainstorming session group for a silly Hollywood comedy flick ^_^.

Oh, and speaking of spearmen vs tanks in the real world, I believe there was one instance in World War II of Japanese officers assailing British tanks with swords. Of course, they're technically swordsmen rather than spearmen, but they're more or less of the same era/tech level.

And yes, the Japanese were massacred, so I definitely would not hold out much hope for the spearmen if all they have are spears and ancient era tactics. ^_^

 

[Slimbo]

After reading all your interesting remarks on this subject, I just wanted to point out something with regard to the unit size. It clearly varies. In the demographics panel you have an attempt to match the two: a certain population and number of units lead to some amount of militay service. Has anyone bother to look up the "official" formula in the code? My suspicion is that the there are many more tanks per unit than suggested above, though, considering that a typical modern armored division has less than 50 guys per AFV...

Ever thought about how many people you need to support 50 Spearmen? Probably exactly 50 Spearmen who go to the forest and cut theris spears after they are drafted... and probably another 50-100 to support their food...

How many people do you need to support 50 tank-boys to have their tank rolling? A good guess would be the 1:10 ration of modern armies between support and combat units - so we are at 500, but then somebody has to build the tanks (another 1000?) somelese have to dig the ore and refine it, others have to dwell and refine the oil, others have to build the ammunition....

so I think a ration of 50:6000 is a very realistic guess...

 

[patweb]

Set spear, hide in the bushes, spear pierces gas tank, tank explodes.

Nuff said?

 

[Eigenvector]

Gas tank of what? Its not like tanks have all their gas on the outside of the armor plating. True some Soviet era tanks had external drums, and those drums were real combat liabilities, but it isn't all external.

Besides, and this is really the most important part, just because you put a hole in the gas tank doesn't mean it explodes. Even shooting a gas tank won't normally be enough to blow it up. Gasoline is hard to ignite.

 

[zeeter]

Ever thought about how many people you need to support 50 Spearmen? Probably exactly 50 Spearmen who go to the forest and cut theris spears after they are drafted... and probably another 50-100 to support their food...

How many people do you need to support 50 tank-boys to have their tank rolling? A good guess would be the 1:10 ration of modern armies between support and combat units - so we are at 500, but then somebody has to build the tanks (another 1000?) somelese have to dig the ore and refine it, others have to dwell and refine the oil, others have to build the ammunition....

so I think a ration of 50:6000 is a very realistic guess...

Don't forget the seamstresses who make their uniforms. Probably 2000 or so. And the people who make the boots. Another 500? And they need medical support - so that's another 2000 or so. And somebody has to press the buttons for their uniforms - probably about 200 more people. And don't forget training - 2-300. More if you bring them up from bootcamp - but why start there. Realistically, you could go back to grammar school and count those people. How many is that so far?

Lets be reasonable here. The mechanics aren't in the battle. As soon as the tanks lose they're packing up their trucks and moving back behind the new lines. The oil well workers aren't fighting - they're a thousand miles away. The builders aren't fighting. It's just the tanks.

 

[zeeter]

Gas tank of what? Its not like tanks have all their gas on the outside of the armor plating. True some Soviet era tanks had external drums, and those drums were real combat liabilities, but it isn't all external.

Besides, and this is really the most important part, just because you put a hole in the gas tank doesn't mean it explodes. Even shooting a gas tank won't normally be enough to blow it up. Gasoline is hard to ignite.

Actually, Gasoline's flashpoint isn't that high compared to other volitile gases. However, gasoline doesn't necessarily blow up in a gas can. It will only blow up in a compressed or confined area. A five gallon gas tank isn't confined enough. It will probably just burn. If it does blow up, it's not going to do much damage. If all of the gasoline in the tank was exposed to flame at the same time - like what happens when a moltov cocktail bottle breaks, then yes - you have an explosive factor.

 

[xyourxmomxcorex]

If I remember correctly... in Saving Ryan's private... huh!!! private ryan,,, they beat a tank with socks... so following the logics that goes with it, it might happens that spearman beat tanks...

It had a bomb in it you moron.

 

[xyourxmomxcorex]

Gas tank of what? Its not like tanks have all their gas on the outside of the armor plating. True some Soviet era tanks had external drums, and those drums were real combat liabilities, but it isn't all external.

Besides, and this is really the most important part, just because you put a hole in the gas tank doesn't mean it explodes. Even shooting a gas tank won't normally be enough to blow it up. Gasoline is hard to ignite.

Gasoline fuel is acctally not too difficult to ignight, but Desil fuel, which is what i think tanks have is much more difficult to ignight. And all the fuel would be protected by inches of depleted uranuim reiforced armor plating.

 

[xyourxmomxcorex]

I have never seen a tank get beaten by a spearman in Civ IV. I don't think it occurs as often as in Civ III.

It happens. Also, a warrior clubed a 2/3 navy seal to death.

 

[EdCase]

It had a bomb in it you moron.

Tossing around comments such as these is decidely unpleasant and unnecessary.

Gasoline fuel is acctally not too difficult to ignight, but Desil fuel, which is what i think tanks have is much more difficult to ignight. And all the fuel would be protected by inches of depleted uranuim reiforced armor plating.

Especially when followed by atrocious spelling. Also you are aware that......

DEPLETED URANIUM ARMOUR
The M1A1 tank incorporates steel encased depleted uranium armour. Armour bulkheads separate the crew compartment from the fuel tanks. The top panels of the tank are designed to blow outwards in the event of penetration by a HEAT projectile. The tank is protected against nuclear, biological and chemical (NBC) warfare.

The crew is protected a lot more than the fuel.

Finally wasn't this discussion about Tanks...cos the Abrams is more readily classified as Modern Armor in Civ terms.

 

[zeeter]

ya, I doubt that the shermans in WWII had much depleted uranium armor on them. Once the hull of those things was jeapardized the crew was pretty much doomed.

 

[Eigenvector]

Again, that is a misconception of what happens when a shell penetrates a tank.

Tank shells that penetrate the armor of a tank typically ignite the lubricants, the SHELLS inside the tank, or if they penetrate the engine compartment, ignite the oils, or fuel there. More often than not the tank doesn't even explode or burst into flames, typically the fragments from the shell would shred the occupants, or the concussion from the impact would crush them. It was not uncommon for German or Soviet tanks to take 12 or 15 hits from a tank cannon before being considered knocked out. After all you can't see the occupants and unless the thing starts burning there's no way to tell its been destroyed - so the opposing tank would keep firing away. There are pictures of German Elefants with 10 holes in the sides of them - 10 76.2mm size holes in them, and the superstructure is still intact.

True Sherman tanks had a very nasty tendency to catch fire, but that had as much to do with the storage of shells as the placement of the engine compartment. That was true for almost all WWII era tanks - the Germans had a better design.

 

[patweb]

Gas tank of what? Its not like tanks have all their gas on the outside of the armor plating. True some Soviet era tanks had external drums, and those drums were real combat liabilities, but it isn't all external.

Besides, and this is really the most important part, just because you put a hole in the gas tank doesn't mean it explodes. Even shooting a gas tank won't normally be enough to blow it up. Gasoline is hard to ignite.

The spearmen have flint and steel don't they?

Hey, maybe they have Roman fire (just like a sticky bomb).....

 

[gram123]

Well anyway. Defeeding a tank with a pikeman can be posible in ekstems way, But i lots A chopper to a swordsman... now that is odd. What did he do. Threw his sword 100 metes above the ground and cut the Gasoline line ? Well the chopper was damaged but like 7 or 8 out of 20 posible. Thats half strenge a chopper at half strenge is atleast able to fly above the hight of a man

 

[Proteus]

The swordsmen bring in their wifes and let them stand in an open field (while the swordsmen themselves are hidden from above in a forest).
As soon as a chopper comes into sight the women flash their breasts at the choppercrews. As the choppercrews are already some time in the field (and therefore hungry for women ) they call all of the other choppers and land to have some nice hours of group sex
But as soon as they are outside of their choppers and start to take off their clothes the hidden swordsmen emerge, kill all the chopper crews and (not knowing how to fly them) hack all of the choppers into pieces

 

[Gargoyle]

A spearmen that is utilized by on of the top 18 Civilizations in the world during a time were enemy Civs have tanks. It may be a unit that started its history as a spearmen. And it may have had no Upgrades. But it must have SOME modern advantages. Maybe they are spear armed but have a few vintage panzerfausts? Maybe Molotov Coctails?

There are no ancient units. They are all contemporary. They are just underarmed. Its just a WEAK unit versus a STRONG unit. And that strong unit will always win unless badly damaged.

 

[Nilrim]

The swordsmen bring in their wifes and let them stand in an open field (while the swordsmen themselves are hidden from above in a forest).
As soon as a chopper comes into sight the women flash their breasts at the choppercrews. As the choppercrews are already some time in the field (and therefore hungry for women ) they call all of the other choppers and land to have some nice hours of group sex
But as soon as they are outside of their choppers and start to take off their clothes the hidden swordsmen emerge, kill all the chopper crews and (not knowing how to fly them) hack all of the choppers into pieces

I can see it now that was too funny

I think the problem a lot of people are having is that they are thinking tactical not strategic. Each game turn is at least a year long, most tactical battles are over in minutes or hours. When you attack another unit in CIV 4 you are not doing it tactically. Those choppers can't stay airborne for a year strait, those tank crews aren’t buttoned up for a solid year. CIV 4 warfare is on a strategic level so could a full strength company of spearmen defeat a very depleted, demoralized company of modern troops, you bet they could.

The problem I have with the CIV 4 units is that NO nation that has the ability to create say a WWII style Inf. unit would ever consider fielding a company of spearmen. The game should force you to upgrade or retire units that are 3 generations or older from your current know Tech.

 

[Proteus]

The problem I have with the CIV 4 units is that NO nation that has the ability to create say a WWII style Inf. unit would ever consider fielding a company of spearmen. The game should force you to upgrade or retire units that are 3 generations or older from your current know Tech.

This would be a very good idea.
For a real world example:
At the beginning of the 16th century england still had several thousands of longbows (and their equipment like bowstrings and arows) stored within the armories ot the tower (and every small township within england had their men train archery to form militias equipped with longbows).
But then at the first half of the 16th century the musket came to england and at the end of the 16th (or the beginning of the 17th) century even the last small english militia unit was equipped with muskets instead of longbows.