Defeating a tank with a spearman *is* realistic...

[screwtype]

So I guess, 28% bonus is fairly good

No, sorry, I totally disagree. Japan went from being a medieval backwater to a major world power in just fifty years, from 1853 when Commodore Perry forced Japan to open to the world, to 1905 when the Japanese defeated the Russians in Korea. Try and do that in Civ4.

Also, your own statistics only demonstrate how quickly, relatively speaking, a country can develop an entirely new industry when it wants to.

 

[Proteus]

So I guess, 28% bonus is fairly good

No, sorry, I totally disagree. Japan went from being a medieval backwater to a major world power in just fifty years, from 1853 when Commodore Perry forced Japan to open to the world, to 1905 when the Japanese defeated the Russians in Korea. Try and do that in Civ4.

Also, your own statistics only demonstrate how quickly, relatively speaking, a country can develop an entirely new industry when it wants to.

But how much of this can be attributed to some kind of pure tech trade? (i.e. something along giving the japanese civ technologies over diplomatic channels as it is in Civ IV)

 

[MRM]

So I guess, 28% bonus is fairly good

But how much of this can be attributed to some kind of pure tech trade? (i.e. something along giving the japanese civ technologies over diplomatic channels as it is in Civ IV)

Hm - what techs no one else had could Japan offer at this time ?


AFAIK they learnt those new technology pretty quickly by sending students to european and american university and back at home they used and spread those new knowledge .

I learned in High School physics the concept how to build a nuclear bomb, still Germany would need (its my guess) at least 5-10 years to build one on their own (and we already have nuclear power plants who produce enough plutonium for a bunch of them, whats the biggest issue for the wannahave countries like Iran)...

1 - 2 Years maximum - I guess the hardest part was first to figure out what isotops are suitable, what to use as neutron reflector - whats the critical mass etc - all this is meanwhile common knowledge, so once you have the plutonium ( here I agree, thats the biggest problem for a country that want to have some ) it can be build pretty soon ...

"General Wellington! General Wellington!"
"Yes, what is it?"
"M'lord Duke, the French reinforcements have arrived!"
"Reinforcements? How can this be? Bonie's army is bottled up here in Waterloo and no one's seen hide nor hair of the little blighter the whole day! What 'reinforcements'?"
"From the south road, M'lord, message reads 'French have arived with mechanical cannons. Possition untenanble, retreating to ...' ah....bit of blood here, smeared the ink....next line says 'engines broke through barricade. Fuisilliers and grenadiers ineffective. Lord Argile severely wounded. Please advise. Lieutenant Briggs, acting commander.'"
"By God, that damned Corsican has done it again."

 

[Proteus]

Hm - what techs no one else had could Japan offer at this time ?

AFAIK they learnt those new technology pretty quickly by sending students to european and american university and back at home they used and spread those new knowledge .

Japan wouldn´t have to give techs, but rather trade concessions (which can be seen as gold or gold/turn)

I think the borders between science points due to trade with another civ which already has a tech and tech trade are very fluid.

For example I would see the japanese teppo as a result of tech trade. The portugese didn´t give the japanese the tech gunpowder directly, but they gave them muskets thereby allowing the japanese to study them and therefore unlock the science (at least I would think that this is the best description which could be given in Civ IV terms).

Maybe allowing students of some other country into your universities could also be seen as tech trade (given the right period of time).
You give us gold and we allow your students into our universities and therefore enable them to unlock one of our techs which we have but you don´t possess.

After all I don´t know of one RL example of direct tech trade where one country directly gave another country a tech (for example by giving them all blueprints for a certain weapon it didn´t have and scientist which would help this country to build his own manufacturing plants for this weapon)

 

[Swissempire]

I don't know if this has already been said, but who says the spearman have to charge the battlion of tanks? The spearmen could use there spears to dig holes and then cover them, or they could go all ewok and hook up logs to trees. I sure if teddy bears could defeat laser shooting walking tanks, spearmen could destroy a couple of tanks

 

[gimhalos]

Wow..... this is kinda stupid..... I'd like to take this moment to say ninjas are better than pirates

 

[numskll]

Wow..... this is kinda stupid..... I'd like to take this moment to say ninjas are better than pirates

Kirk < Jean Luc
Vodka > Rum
Boxers > breifs
CNN > Fox ( but not by very much)
Pie > Cake
Rolling Stones > Beatles


. . . Now that we've established some ground rules . .. let's figure out that Pepsi-coke thing

 

[Mmmm Butter]

Just to add to the debate, saw this on the BBC website.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4144405.stm

The helicopter obviously withdrew from combat!

Awesome!

I like the last bit: "They might have run to high ground for safety after noticing changes in the behaviour of birds and marine wildlife.

Scientists are examining the possibility to see whether it can be used to predict earth tremors in future."


Now, if the tribesmen were smart (and had alphabet), they'd trade the "Natural Disaster Warning System" to the Indians for "Flight".

 

[Mmmm Butter]

Kirk < Jean Luc
Vodka > Rum
Boxers > breifs
CNN > Fox ( but not by very much)
Pie > Cake
Rolling Stones > Beatles


. . . Now that we've established some ground rules . .. let's figure out that Pepsi-coke thing

Jack & Coke > Pepsi

 

[Lars_Domus]

[N]injas are better than pirates

Nu-uh!!

And I rather like the anti-tank spear idea.

Back on topic: However you try to put it, the undeniable fact is that in the game spearmen defeat tanks from time to time. It's better to try and figure out a way it could have happened, however far-fetched, rather than sitting around moping and pretending it didn't happen.

I don't know much about guerilla tactics or the construction of tanks, so I don't know whether I believe a spearman unit could defeat a tank unit IRL, but I do know that for the sake of game balance you can't just make modern units immune to ancient units.

 

[jefmart1]

OK time to clear up a few things...

The Japanese had gunpowder and guns before Perry came to Japan and before the Portuguese. They are one of the few examples of a culture actually "losing" technology deliberately. They placed controls on who could make guns and then outlawed them altogether because they feared (rightly so) that guns would make the Samurai culture and the shoguns' dominance over Japan impossible to maintain.

Also, in Iraq: AFVs are not necessarily tanks, they can be APCs like Bradleys or BRDMs (Soviet APCs which are kind of crappy). PLUS, almsot all of the vehicles damaged in Iraq are Hummers, which are glorified Jeeps. So I don't see how that equates to a Tank.

Not to mention, guys with AK-47s and improvised explosive devices (which are often artillery shells) equates to spearmen.

Lets make reasonable comparisons for the sake of this argument. Or don't because you can't make a reasonable comparison and keep arguing that spearmen can defeat tanks. If you believe this to be true, go to the Pentagon and suggest that we discountinue making tanks and send spearmen over to Iraq, I'm sure they need a good laugh!

 

[impactblue]

Here's some things to think about for those Spearmen contemplating an attack on modern armor

1. Tanks are intimidating. Even allied infantry troops working with tanks don't want to stand too close to them. You get this distinct feeling that you're going to get run over.
Tankers have a nickname for infantry: "crunchies".

2. Tanks are loud.
2a. M1 Abrams have turbine engines. When they rev up, it's extremely loud, basically a jet engine right next to you. Without hearing protection, you're going to be deafened.
2b. It doesn't have to fire it's main gun at you. If it fires its main gun and you're standing next to it, you will be deafened, if you aren't bleeding out of your ears from your ear drums getting blown out. Even hearing the .50cal machine gun on the turret being fired is deafening.

3. Pivot Steering. That's the term for when a tank spins around in place. It's not like a normal automobile. When you stand beside a car, you know you're safe because it can only go forwards and backwards. A tracked vehicle can spin around in place, and if you're standing beside it, it will flatten you.

4. Mutual protection. Two tanks can watch out for each other. If you're in the blind spot, say the rear, of one tank, the other one can train their machine guns at that blind spot. If you manage to get on top of a tank, the other one will "scratch its back", i.e. rake the other tank with machine gun fire to kill anything soft and fleshy on top of it.

Summary:
It's difficult for foot troops to operate near tanks, even friendly troops. Enemy troops will have great difficulty even getting near a tank. You're going to go deaf and get shot before being run over and turned into roadkill. With modern weapons, infantry have some chance of successfully attacking tanks FROM A DISTANCE. But if all you got is spears or any other kind of melee weapon, modern armor does not need supporting infantry to defeat you. RUN AWAY.
Fin.

 

[Proteus]

OK time to clear up a few things...

The Japanese had gunpowder and guns before Perry came to Japan and before the Portuguese. They are one of the few examples of a culture actually "losing" technology deliberately. They placed controls on who could make guns and then outlawed them altogether because they feared (rightly so) that guns would make the Samurai culture and the shoguns' dominance over Japan impossible to maintain.

Hm, any sources on this?

After all I know gunpowder weapons were given up, yes, but only after the sengoku jidai (time of warring states during the 16th century) which brought Nobunaga (and after him Tokugawa who later banned firearms) to power.
This was well before Perry, but it was just during the times were the portugese got into contact to japan, and got busy in converting japan to christianity and trading with muskets (i.e. teppo) and AFAIK it was them, who introduced the teppo to japan (to the benefit of Tokugawa and Nobunaga, who used them on a large scale on the battlefield during the sengoku jidai, something which lead to the downfall of the house of Takeda at the battle of Nagashino)
AFAIK it was also during Tokugawas (and his descendants) reign (i.e. after the sengoku jidai) that the relations between japan and the portugese worsened and japan decided to close its borders to all gaijin.

 

[jefmart1]

You are right...they apparently got them from Portuguese crewmen who washed up from a shipwreck. Then they figured out how to manufacture them themselves.

If you read Guns, Germs, and Steel (excellent book on why some civs evolved and succeeded and others didn't). He uses the example of the japanese giving up firearms as an example of how civs don't always make use of the best available technology, for various reasons.

 

[gettingfat]

The battles in Civ are highly abstract. When you see a tank fight a spearman it never actually means ONE tank battles ONE spearman; it is a battle between two groups of them. Don't tell me a country will just deploy one big spearman to guard a city.

True, 1 Rambo can shoot down a gunship with a crossbow, but 100 Rambos can't shoot down 100 gunships.

 

[Kissamies]

Kirk < Jean Luc

Be ye nuts? One fake karate chop in the neck and Jean Luc would go down like a bag of potatoes faster than he can say "warp speed... now!"

 

[Proteus]

You are right...they apparently got them from Portuguese crewmen who washed up from a shipwreck. Then they figured out how to manufacture them themselves.

If you read Guns, Germs, and Steel (excellent book on why some civs evolved and succeeded and others didn't). He uses the example of the japanese giving up firearms as an example of how civs don't always make use of the best available technology, for various reasons.

Yep, they finally reengineered the matchlock rifle by the arquebuses they got from the portugese and learned to produce their own version, the teppo (although they weren&#180;t of the same quality as the arquebuises they got from the europeans).

Which is why in Civ IV terms I see it as some kind of tech trade. The portugese jesuits traded the arquebuses to the christian daimyos thus enabling them to unlock the tech to produce their own versions.
(which then decided not to produce any more musketmen despite from this time on having the tech to buiild them)

 

[jefmart1]

The battles in Civ are highly abstract. When you see a tank fight a spearman it never actually means ONE tank battles ONE spearman; it is a battle between two groups of them. Don't tell me a country will just deploy one big spearman to guard a city.

True, 1 Rambo can shoot down a gunship with a crossbow, but 100 Rambos can't shoot down 100 gunships.

Yes, I said that earlier that they are abstract. But how many spearmen would it take to defeat a unit of tanks? If the answer was even remotely possible to achieve than countries would have fielded armies of spearmen as a last ditch effort to save their country before it was conquered.

BTW Polish cavalry was wiped out by Germna panzers in the beginning of ww ii and obviously cavalry si mroe advanced then spearmen. The example of Ethiopians defeating Italian tanks is a bad one because the Italian "tanks" were cars with flimsy armor and machine guns, and the troops were poorly trained and led. It is the one example of this happening.

If it only happened once per game I wouldn't care. But it happens frequently, very frequently.

EVEN if it could be explained logically (NOT), it is an annoying in game event that should be changed for better gameplay.

 

[warpus]

whenever something like this happens i assume that the general in charge of the platoon was an idiot.

and btw, polish cavalry during ww2 was quite successful, considering the huge technological gap between the two armies.

 

[The Tollan]

In extremely rare circumstances a large unit of spearmen could perhaps defeat a group of less than five tanks. It would happen far, far less often than it occurs in Civilization 4 however.

The likely reason why units like grenadiers and riflemen have a better chance against tanks and modern armor than do spearmen and swordsmen is that they usually have access to more types of technology and tools (the unit represents the technology of the era they came from regardless of your actual technology). For example riflemen have more explosive weapons available to them and could make use of more ramps and could dig or construct obstacles faster.

That does not mean that the actual strength rating of each unit is realistic.