Defeating a tank with a spearman *is* realistic...

[Kamamura]

Yes, I said that earlier that they are abstract. But how many spearmen would it take to defeat a unit of tanks? If the answer was even remotely possible to achieve than countries would have fielded armies of spearmen as a last ditch effort to save their country before it was conquered.

BTW Polish cavalry was wiped out by Germna panzers in the beginning of ww ii and obviously cavalry si mroe advanced then spearmen. The example of Ethiopians defeating Italian tanks is a bad one because the Italian "tanks" were cars with flimsy armor and machine guns, and the troops were poorly trained and led. It is the one example of this happening.

If it only happened once per game I wouldn't care. But it happens frequently, very frequently.

EVEN if it could be explained logically (NOT), it is an annoying in game event that should be changed for better gameplay.

Polish cavalry charging German tank is a myth, spread by German propaganda.

Read:
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/polcamp.htm

Polish generals were no idiots, they fought bravely and inflicted many casualties upen their foes! If the western states weren't so cowardly and treacherous (Munich treason), Hitler could have been stopped right in the beginning!

 

[Kissamies]

Had the french managed to properly mobilise their army and attack Germany while they were invading Poland, WWII would have been stopped right there. Instead, they managed to conduct some minor raids.

 

[axehaxe]

I think of the spearman/tank theory in terms of resources. By the time tanks appear, the spearmen have been in commission for a LONG time. While there's not enough say, saltpeter to upgrade the entire spearman division to a gunpowder unit, a few high ranking spearmen within the division can afford to have spear-propeled grenades and that sort. The spearmen not only thrust their spears but throw them as well. The spearmen become more creative over the ages.

 

[jar2574]

Has anyone ever seen a healthy tank defeated by a healthy spearman? I can't imagine that happening in Civ4.

 

[Kamamura]

Now when the firepower of a unit is based on max strength always (i.e. wounded units are not weaker), those wierd kills should be much more rare.

 

[TexasJim]

What about if the Spearman tied a knot in the Tank's cannon like Bugs Bunny?

 

[jefmart1]

Polish cavalry charging German tank is a myth, spread by German propaganda.

Read:
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/polcamp.htm

Polish generals were no idiots, they fought bravely and inflicted many casualties upen their foes! If the western states weren't so cowardly and treacherous (Munich treason), Hitler could have been stopped right in the beginning!

Makes my point even stronger! According to your link they were armed with anti-tank weapons not rifles (I never said sabres or lances), so If they got slaughtered by tanks then spearmen have no shot!

 

[zeeter]

Makes my point even stronger! According to your link they were armed with anti-tank weapons not rifles (I never said sabres or lances), so If they got slaughtered by tanks then spearmen have no shot!

I don't think that you can use the Poles vs Germany as an example here. The Poles were the first country to face the German Blitzkrieg in its full force. They didn't know how to fight them.

The French and Brits had a better chance of stopping them in 1940. The Germans extended their lines way too long due to the ease in which they hit France. The Allies had two chances to cut the German armies off and quite possibly ending the war early, yet failed due to poor organization. If they had been cut off, it may not have been too out of the question for a bunch of speaman division to come in and take them out. Imagine 6000 spearmen coming at your tank unit. The tanks only have so many bullets, and they're firing machineguns, so they're going to miss a lot. The turrets are out, because they take power to move, unless the spearmen idiotically attack the fronts of the tanks.

 

[jefmart1]

I hope people arguing in favor of the spearman are joking!

First of all, the Tank in the game represents a tank unit, at a minimum a tank platoon is 4 tanks. They have lots of bullets and shells.

Second, even if they ran out of ammo they would:

A: Run the f***ers over! (Dune 2000 style)
B: Run away!
C: On the off chance they run out of gas - Stay inside until the spearmen got tired of poking the steel beast and left...

So at the minimum, instead of dying, they should withdraw.

SERIOUSLY! If 6,000 spearmen would beat 4 tanks then the Chinese would have sent millions of spearmen over the Korean border and wiped the American and UN troops out. That didn't happen. Just like pikemen cannot stab a gunship in the belly! (which happens in the game)

Now, if Spearmen upgraded to irregulars or guerillas and used IEDs and firebombs, then we might have a case.

PLEASE, have your head examined if you believe that Spearmen defeating tanks is reasonable. If you were even remotely right, then large countries would have legions of spearmen (since thats cheaper).

I mean, COME ON, does anyone really believe that this is even remotely realistic.

 

[zeeter]

I hope people arguing in favor of the spearman are joking!

First of all, the Tank in the game represents a tank unit, at a minimum a tank platoon is 4 tanks. They have lots of bullets and shells.

Second, even if they ran out of ammo they would:

A: Run the f***ers over! (Dune 2000 style)
B: Run away!
C: On the off chance they run out of gas - Stay inside until the spearmen got tired of poking the steel beast and left...

So at the minimum, instead of dying, they should withdraw.

SERIOUSLY! If 6,000 spearmen would beat 4 tanks then the Chinese would have sent millions of spearmen over the Korean border and wiped the American and UN troops out. That didn't happen. Just like pikemen cannot stab a gunship in the belly! (which happens in the game)

Now, if Spearmen upgraded to irregulars or guerillas and used IEDs and firebombs, then we might have a case.

PLEASE, have your head examined if you believe that Spearmen defeating tanks is reasonable. If you were even remotely right, then large countries would have legions of spearmen (since thats cheaper).

I mean, COME ON, does anyone really believe that this is even remotely realistic.

As to point A: We're all assuming that the tank is out of gas. Plus - ever tried to run someone over with a tank that doesn't want to get run over? Sure - they might get a few, but not many. Tanks are maneuverable when going slow, but at high speeds not so much in comparison with a car. More maneuverable than WWII tanks? Sure - but still not like running someone over with a car.

Point B: Run away. Ok - then the spearmen have won. Whoo Hoo!

Point C: Stay inside. Ok - eventually they're going to starve or die of thirst. Spearmen Win!!! Whoo Hoo!!!

Chinese: Do you think that the Chinese really wanted all-out war against NATO? No - they were doing a police action just like NATO was. Or the UN. Or whatever group it was. I thought it was NATO but could be wrong.

If a nation just built spearmen, then I'd just build infantry to beat them. Why build all of those tanks when you can just have a bunch of infantrymen shoot them to death?

The point isn't that the Spearmen have a decent shot at beating a tank. It's that there may be one or two circumstances in a world war where a tank unit would fall to a spearman unit due to some freak occurrance. We're not saying that it should be the norm. Just within the realm of possibility.

Besides - they're all just numbers, anyway. We go back, now, to the theory that if we want modern units to be immune to ancient ones then we should just sit down with a piece of paper, write down our tech tree, then call the game a win because theres no chance we'd lose due to being an age ahead of everyone else.

For God's sake - it's a game. You guys take it way too seriously. Honest - I've heard of people with pen and paper who calculate their production every turn in order to maximize it, spending hours moving citizens. These are the people who send tank units into spearman territory and complain about losing one tank out of twenty. Was that one tank going to cripple your war effort? Was the next advance dependent on that tank still being alive? Geez - it's not like it happens all the time.

To me they're not really spearmen. They're a unit that has a strength of four. So my city has a four strength defense. Maybe the picture is of a spearman, but that is irrelevant. It's a picture that represents a number. The number represents the level of strength. Maybe in 1940 they still have the spearman picture, but they still carry a four strength no matter what they're up against.

 

[Captain2]

heres a way the spearman could win, a spearman walks up to a tank and starts trash talking one of the crewman until he gets upset and jumps out to shoot him with his sidearm, spearman takes him out, steals his uniform and tears his face off and puts it over his (silence of the lambs anyone?) then when the other crew come out to help the injured dude other spearmen kill them by rushing at them,

or they could always poop in a bottle and throw it in one of the viewing panels in a tank and wait until the crew either dies or comes out of the tank for air

 

[Captain2]

Polish cavalry charging German tank is a myth, spread by German propaganda.

Read:
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/polcamp.htm

Polish generals were no idiots, they fought bravely and inflicted many casualties upen their foes! If the western states weren't so cowardly and treacherous (Munich treason), Hitler could have been stopped right in the beginning!

no they actually did charge the german panzers with horsemen, it was because there was a rumor going around that the german tanks had been made of painted cardboard, in fact the germans did have cardboard tanks but only for training, Poles only found this out after getting blown away

and yes polish generals were idiots, anyone who would send horsemen to a frontline in the first place is just wrong, and btw westerners cowardly? I think they were pretty ballsy to declare war after trying so hard for peace, if you declare war on everyone you think is a bully you'll destroy yourself. as i read once in a humor page on WW2, "German liberators defeat Polish juggernaught, next target is hollands lethal build up of wooden shoes"
quite simply except for bravery the polish really were bad at that war

 

[salty]

Must I quote the famous Polish General Donald Rumsfeldski? "You go to war with the army you have, not the army you wish you had"

 

[CyberChrist]

Reading threads like this one is like watching a good Monty Python show - lots of fun but very little fact, realistic thought or common sense ever enter into it.

 

[logical_psycho]

I'm surprised to see that my topic grew this large.




I still think it would be possible, unlikely, but possible. They might not poke a tank to pieces with a spear, but might trap a tank and destroy it bit by bit.

 

[Karl Townsend]

yea thats what i thought

 

[DarkFyre99]

just happened to see this thread and decided to read it.

I plead temporary insanity... since I'm going to give my own $1.95 on the subject as well.

As many people have pointed out, combat in Civ4 is highly abstract, where the numbers represent the relative strength of a unit as opposed to the actual technology of the unit. It's just as likely that the spearmen unit represents a smaller unit equipped with the nearly modern weapons of their nation as opposed to actual spearmen.

A unit of "spearmen" might not be 1000 actual spearmen, but could represent a smaller unit of 200 riflemen... complete with access to explosives and improvised bombs... and since they're likely the defenders in any battle (unless the tank is heavily damaged and unprotected) it means that they have the lay of the land and the support of the local population. Think of them as an insurgency.

Thus...

 

[potatokiosk]

If a tank loses, the tank is either severely damaged or fairly damaged and attacking a well fortified position. Think spearmen would lose to tanks in a jungle? Think again. Same thing applies to urban warfare, as spearmen can hide in buildings and perform ambushes.
But in most situations, the spearmen would be doomed.
This whole thing reminds me of Star Wars episode VI.

 

[jefmart1]

To be clear. I am referring to tanks being killed by attacking spearmen.

I realize that a weak tank might lose to a spearmen, especially one fortified in a city.

My example (happens numerous times) is an artillery rush against several full strength tanks (say 3) out in the open. Then a series of knights, macemen, spearmen etc. Attack until said tanks are dead. Usually only a few attacks. This is not realistic. Give me one example of tanks losing to spearmen, cavalry, etc in open terrain; and not in an ambush situation.

Funniest thing was a pikemen stabbing my gunship in the belly and it blowing up.

PLEASE?

I don't have a problem with the artillery rush per se, but the aftermath is ridiculous.

Units ought to be allowed a counterfire promotion (especially artillery) where they have +25% vs artillery and/OR 1/2 damage from collateral.

 

[timdk]

I think someone had it earlier in the thread: Obviously, it isn't a unit of spearmen, but a single, huge, Goliath spearman, towering above the entire city he is guarding. When the enemy tanks attack, their shells may hurt him, but he then bellows, Godzilla-like, and attacks the tanks with a spear approximately the size and mass of the Sears Tower.