Definition of offices in Alternative government structure

[ravensfire]

Too simple (by the way, my detailed comments are not responded to and the smallest common denominator seems to lead the theme of discussions), a long term tech leader would develop the entire research strategy for Term One, and set the criteria allowing the director to choose a deviation from the course. However, this means that the Consul basically drafts one or two plans, depending on the pace of the Term, quite detailed plans, and allow the Director to interpret and act according to this detailed plan.

Provo - I continue to skip your larger posts. Why? You're far too wordy and in love with the written word. Put down the thesaurus, and use brevity. Until then, I skim it at best. When it comes to sharing your ideas, you are your own worst enemy.

You are confusing the role of the consul and the guidelines they will post. To continue with the research example, they are there to plan the full technology plan. Shock - I agree with you about that. Fear not, it's happened before. That plan, however, is NOT supposed to be detailed. That's not their role. They define the longer objectives - the example of "Get Republic immediately, while using the philosophy gambit" is perfect.

The plans that Consuls post should be about 2-3 weeks ahead of the game. Their discussions should be much, much farther ranging in scope. That, however, is not needed for the Directors. That 2-3 weeks is usually 20 - 40 turns worth of instructions - more than enough heads up notice. Combine that with the (hopeful) active participation of the Director in the planning, life is good.

You're last statement, "However, this means that the Consul basically drafts one or two plans, depending on the pace of the Term, quite detailed plans, and allow the Director to interpret and act according to this detailed plan.", is pretty darn close. Remove the "detailed" part, and that's it. Plans should NOT be overly details. The research Consul should not post "Get Alphabet, then Writing, then ...." They provide the goals, the strategy, the long-term objectives for the Directors to meet.

A huge aspect that will be quite interesting to watch is the interaction between Consul and Director that will develop.

-- Ravensfire

 

[DaveShack]

There seems to be a misconception that Directors are not subject to WOTP. This is incorrect, on two fronts. First, since the long-term plan posted by the Consuls is derived from WOTP, and the Directors have to follow those plans, the Directors have to follow WOTP. Second, the point was to remove mandatory polling of every single instruction, like we got into last game where all the leaders felt like "glorified polling secretaries". The Directors still need to propose their instructions and have commentary. The people would still have the power to request a poll on something they don't agree with.

 

[Strider]

There seems to be a misconception that Directors are not subject to WOTP. This is incorrect, on two fronts. First, since the long-term plan posted by the Consuls is derived from WOTP, and the Directors have to follow those plans, the Directors have to follow WOTP. Second, the point was to remove mandatory polling of every single instruction, like we got into last game where all the leaders felt like "glorified polling secretaries". The Directors still need to propose their instructions and have commentary. The people would still have the power to request a poll on something they don't agree with.

No, the directors do not follow the WOTP, they follow the consuls. They listen to the WOTP indirectly, and instead base there decisiosn on what another elected official says. Not only that, but this leaves alot of the detailed and short-term things out of the hands of the citizens. As the consuls only create long-term plans, and they are the only ones subjected to the WOTP.

Tell me, what happens if a Civilization declares war on us? That planning is in the hands of the directors, and the citizens have no say on what the directors are doing, because the citizens can only say what the consuls do. As I doubt the consuls will go into such detail as to find out what will happen if every civ declares war on us, this leaves it up to just the directors.

Your logic is wrong, and your trying to mislead the masses. The directors do not directly answer to the WOTP, as they should. Hell, most of there decisions are short-term things, where the citizens won't even get a single say in!

 

[ravensfire]

No, Strider, your logic is wrong. You are trying to mislead the masses.

Simply, I'll direct you to every version of the Constitution proposed thus far, including yours. "Elected officials must plan and act according to the will of the people." Nowhere, in ANY version, does it say that "Elected officials, except for Directors, must plan and act according to the will of the people."

You've got this misconception that Directors get to ignore citizens, and I don't know from where. The intent is that Directors will be working within the plans created by the Consuls so they don't have to poll as often. Much of the discussion and polling will be done by the Consuls. That does not mean, and has never meant, that those responsible for creating the very instructions we expect the DP to follow can (or should) ignore everyone else.

That's (ignoring the people) plain wrong to do, completely foolish and apparently something you've pulled out of thin air.

Director's will have very focused and limited discussions as they implement the plans of the Consuls. I expect that there will be differences on exactly how to implement those plans, and those will require discussions and polls to figure out. They just won't have to reconsider the broad objective.

To summarize, Directors have been, and always will be, subject to the Will of the People clause of the Constitution. They will have discussions. They will have polls. They will ignore the citizens only at risk of a CC over their actions.

-- Ravensfire

 

[Strider]

No, Strider, your logic is wrong. You are trying to mislead the masses.

Simply, I'll direct you to every version of the Constitution proposed thus far, including yours. "Elected officials must plan and act according to the will of the people." Nowhere, in ANY version, does it say that "Elected officials, except for Directors, must plan and act according to the will of the people."

You've got this misconception that Directors get to ignore citizens, and I don't know from where. The intent is that Directors will be working within the plans created by the Consuls so they don't have to poll as often. Much of the discussion and polling will be done by the Consuls. That does not mean, and has never meant, that those responsible for creating the very instructions we expect the DP to follow can (or should) ignore everyone else.

I know full and well that, however, by allowing the directors the ability to not post polls, is about the same effect. Your basicly telling them that they can do almost anything they want to, well, because your inviting them not to post polls to find the WOTP. Also, as I'm sure you know, the WOTP can change extremely fast, and sometimes it's unclear. So, what if a consul polled something a week ago, and the director follows that poll, even though it's not the current WOTP? Is that not the director not following the WOTP?

Nope, all I see here is me having trouble explaining myself.

To summarize, Directors have been, and always will be, subject to the Will of the People clause of the Constitution. They will have discussions. They will have polls. They will ignore the citizens only at risk of a CC over their actions.

-- Ravensfire

Some clause in the constitution hasn't stopped it before. You can "say" you have found the WOTP with just one or two posts. Also, if they will have polls and discussions, then why is the consuls there? To decide on something that will be decided again by a director a week later?

 

[ravensfire]

I know full and well that, however, by allowing the directors the ability to not post polls, is about the same effect. Your basicly telling them that they can do almost anything they want to, well, because your inviting them not to post polls to find the WOTP. Also, as I'm sure you know, the WOTP can change extremely fast, and sometimes it's unclear. So, what if a consul polled something a week ago, and the director follows that poll, even though it's not the current WOTP? Is that not the director not following the WOTP?

Nope, all I see here is me having trouble explaining myself.

Oh my - you have truly raised self-delusion to an art form.

Where, oh master researcher, has ANYONE said that Directors cannot post polls? Oh, that's right, no one has suggested that.

Where, oh master researcher, has ANYONE said that consul plans are static? Oh, that's right, no on has said that.

All I'm seeing, Strider, is your ability to ignore points made countless times.

I'll try this again, maybe you'll understand.

Consuls create and post plans for the new few weeks. These plans are based on on-going discussions and polls on topics their office coveres. These plans are updated as need to reflect changes in the game.

Directors create specific instructions to implement those plans. These directions are created through discussions with citizens and within the constraints of the plans created by the Consuls. This last limitation will greatly reduce the discussions that the Directors need to have because the objective is already known. The only decision is how to get there. It's a tactical focus, Strider. Once you get to that point, there aren't as many decisions that need to be made. Sometimes, the course will be obvious, and won't need polls. Other times, discussions and polls will be needed.

-- Ravensfire

 

[ravensfire]

Also, if they will have polls and discussions, then why is the consuls there? To decide on something that will be decided again by a director a week later?

Are you deliberately trying NOT to understand this process? Seriously - I know you are actively trying to undermine, attack, delay and abuse the process, but I assumed you would try to understand it.

For the Nth time, Consuls create long-term plans - the objectives for us to achieve. Directors determine the route to get there.

Research Consul says bee-line to Republic, use Philosophy gambit. Science Consul sets queue as Alphabet, Writing, Philosophy, Literature, Republic.

Any questions on that process?

-- Ravensfire

 

[Provolution]

My only interest here now is to balance out the top heavy consuls somewhat, and make the very thin consuls substantially more balanced. Remember, where you place the powers will influence the number of candidates per post. A concentration of powers in Consul for Trade and Tech, Domestic and External will reduce interest in Culture, in particular Trade and Tech and External needs a thinning down in powers, and we need a counterbalance between FA/TA and the military as we had before. I will reiterate this point over and over again.

 

[Strider]

Where, oh master researcher, has ANYONE said that Directors cannot post polls? Oh, that's right, no one has suggested that.

Never said anyone did, what I did say is that people have said that directors don't have to post polls.

Where, oh master researcher, has ANYONE said that consul plans are static? Oh, that's right, no on has said that.

So, who makes the choices then? If the consuls polls and discussions will just be over-ran acouple days later. What's the point then? I thought the point was to remove the fickled WOTP (I meant by this, is the WOTP changing constantly on one subject), and allow the directors to focus on one thing, instead of worring about the WOTP changing several days later and there plans being ruined.

Consuls create and post plans for the new few weeks. These plans are based on on-going discussions and polls on topics their office covers. These plans are updated as need to reflect changes in the game.

Directors create specific instructions to implement those plans. These directions are created through discussions with citizens and within the constraints of the plans created by the Consuls. This last limitation will greatly reduce the discussions that the Directors need to have because the objective is already known. The only decision is how to get there. It's a tactical focus, Strider. Once you get to that point, there aren't as many decisions that need to be made. Sometimes, the course will be obvious, and won't need polls. Other times, discussions and polls will be needed.

You've missed my point entirely, so I've bolded the parts that you've said... and proved, that make up my arguement.

Actually, instead of trying to explain my arguement to you again. I'm going to ask acouple of questions to make sure I'm thinking correctly, and if I am, I will then post it.

1) How exactly detailed are a consuls instructions "suppose" to be?

2) You've seem to left out polls, and instead just said "discussions with citizens" was this on purpose or accidental?

3) It will reduce the discussions for who? It seems to me that it will be more discussions, as the consuls post the usual discussions, and then the directors go over some more short-term things. Can you define what you meant by this?

4) Who gets to decide on how to implement a consuls plans? And how?

5) What if we have a director, that instead of going to the citizens for extra information, decides on it himself? I'm talking about a situtation where the problem is not part of an consuls plans. Technically, it is perfectly legal, as the WOTP is not known. However, what if this is a very important decision?

6) What if a directors discussion comes into conflict with a consuls plans?

7) Does the director have the freedom to interpret a consuls plans?

 

[Strider]

Are you deliberately trying NOT to understand this process? Seriously - I know you are actively trying to undermine, attack, delay and abuse the process, but I assumed you would try to understand it.

For the Nth time, Consuls create long-term plans - the objectives for us to achieve. Directors determine the route to get there.

Research Consul says bee-line to Republic, use Philosophy gambit. Science Consul sets queue as Alphabet, Writing, Philosophy, Literature, Republic.

Any questions on that process?

Yeah... several questions. What if the citizens decide that they want to grab Iron working before getting Philosophy?

What happens when a Civilization reaches philosophy before us?

What happens when an even with a short-term solution happens that contradicts a consuls plans?

 

[ravensfire]

1) How exactly detailed are a consuls instructions "suppose" to be?
They are "suppose" to outline the strategic goals and objective without getting overly details. Yup - vague answer for a vague question. There is no single answer. Consul plans should not be detailed to the point of instructions, but have enough information that someone reading them will understand the objectives outlined.

2) You've seem to left out polls, and instead just said "discussions with citizens" was this on purpose or accidental?
No context for this, so I'll answer for both sides. Consuls and Directors will conduct discussions and polls as needed to determine the will of the people and execute the responsibilities of their office. If I missed "and polls" in one or two places - my bad.

3) It will reduce the discussions for who? It seems to me that it will be more discussions, as the consuls post the usual discussions, and then the directors go over some more short-term things. Can you define what you meant by this?
Sure. Most of the discussions from previous DG's would cover two areas - where to go, and how to get there. The objective and the implementation. Consuls answer the "Where to go" question; they determine the objectives. Directors answer the "How to get there" question; they determine how we're going to get there.

There will be some overlap of those discussions, mostly in the Consul area, as people will discuss how to achieve the goals they propose. That's human nature. Good Consuls will keep an eye on things and keep discussions focused. Bad ones will just have longer threads.

The Directors will already have the objective defined, so they will have very focused discussion on how to achieve that objective.

4) Who gets to decide on how to implement a consuls plans? And how?
The Directors will post the instructions in the TCIT. These instructions will be determined with input from all citizens. This is done through discussion and polling as needed.

5) What if we have a director, that instead of going to the citizens for extra information, decides on it himself? I'm talking about a situtation where the problem is not part of an consuls plans. Technically, it is perfectly legal, as the WOTP is not known. However, what if this is a very important decision?
How was that handled in previous DG's? You are asking about a leader deliberately side-stepping/ignoring the people. That's happened before, and can happen in any ruleset.

) What if a directors discussion comes into conflict with a consuls plans?
Directors must follow the objectives presented by the Consuls. If there are conflicts, they can ask for clarification and do the best they can. Same as if a leader in previous DG's has conflicting polls.

7) Does the director have the freedom to interpret a consuls plans?
If a Director has a question about a specific Consul's plans, I expect them to review the discussion thread and/or ask the Consul directly. No Director should be blind-sided by a Consul's plans. They should be following and participating in the Consul discussions. There are going to be times that there are multiple paths to achieve a goal (bee-line to Research; get Philo or Lit first?). Sometimes that choice is obivous (Philo), other times it won't be. That's where discussions and polling will probably come into play.

-- Ravensfire

 

[ravensfire]

Yeah... several questions.

What if the citizens decide that they want to grab Iron working before getting Philosophy?
That's going to be in the Consul objectives - get Iron Working, then head for Philosophy. If citizens want to change those objectives after a chat, the Consul starts a new discussion about the change.

What happens when a Civilization reaches philosophy before us?
Well, the gambit failed. If we know about it ahead of time, that's a good opportunity for the research Consul to evaluate the current plans and possibly change them. That's going to happen - game events will alter objectives, we will have to change things mid-stream. We won't, however, have to change everything around. Remember the madness with the FP - much less likely to happen with this process.

What happens when an even with a short-term solution happens that contradicts a consuls plans?
Huh? Please rephrase that question and try again.

-- Ravensfire

 

[Strider]

Okay, then my full arguement still stands. I'll try to define it as simple as possible to avoid confusion.

It looks to me like it is the directors choice as to whether or not a discussion/poll is needed. I'm guessing that the citizens can still force a leader to post a discussion/poll (or always post it themselves), but it's likely that the problem will never come to the attention of the citizens. If that is so, the director can easily make a decision without being caught. Now, it seems to me that this is part of the entire structure. However, if a discussion/poll is needed, and the director does not post one, what exacly is there to do? Well, eliminating not electing the director again, there isn't much to do. This seems very likely in wonder building, where it is usually the leader who brings up the discussion, and the citizens never think about it.

Also, in my first question, you reply made it sound like your demanding perfection from the consuls. This is illogical, the consuls will miss things from time to time, and it should be part of the structure that a consul might not only posts a plan that is confusing, but that it'll happen often.

Defining an objective is not that hard, a consul can easily say that we have to get Republic through the philsophy gambit, and a director could very easily do that. Except with the possibility of researching Map Making beforehand, it still achieves the objective.

On question #5, the leader in question was no ignoring the WOTP. There was not WOTP to ignore. Would you mind answering this one again?

On question #7, you said what you expected of a director. Would you mind answering this question again also, just instead of what you expect, answer it within the constitutional confines. What law prevents the director by interpreting a consuls plans however they see fit?

 

[ravensfire]

#5. You are asking what happens if the leader deliberately avoids seeking the will of the people. Question was asked, and answered. It's handled the same as previous DG's and the "traditional ruleset".

#7. Directors are bidden to follow the objectives set by the Consul, just as we set the expectations that leaders follow the Will of the People. In both cases, if there is ambiguity, the leader in question has to make a decision. In this specific case, there is probably information out there that the Director can review. The Director can also ask (I know - difficult concept, isn't it?) the Consul.

Now, if we have a Director deliberately finding such vague areas and exploiting them to pervert the plans created by the Consul - that's something for a CC.

So Strider, I'll ask you your own questions based on your ruleset.

#1. What prevents a leader from not seeking the WotP on an issue, thus making the call themself. For example, the leader does not post between game sessions, and posts instructions mere hours before the game session. Specifically, what law prevents this.

#2. What prevents a leader from using vague polls and discussions to create gray areas where they can do as they see fit. Specifically, what law prevents this.

-- Ravensfire

 

[Provolution]

This discussion has already died out and gets more and more confusing, we would never see improvements since the Pretorian Guard of the First Draft listens first and foremost to the hardest critics, not to those with minor proposals for improvements.

 

[Ashburnham]

I agree with Provo. Other than providing an amusing debate between one of the staunchest proponents of the new government and one of the staunchest opponents, nothing constructive is being accomplished. Interesting as it is, I think we've finished establishing the powers of the various offices in the government.

 

[Provolution]

Ash

We still need to adjust the Consuls a bit, we need to divide them into Foreign Affairs, Trade and Culture Consul, Science and Technology Consul, Domestic Consul and a Military Consul. Ash, you know from last game that we really need to think on the long term planning for the military, and I remember you as one of the strongest proponents for using this to stop wild brushfire wars getting out of hand, and other reasons.

Same applies to Directors. Honestly, Strider on the one side and DS and his posse on the other side, do not want to touch their respective "master-pieces" and have crawled down into the trenches and confusing the debate in order to keep us and out input out, they want this to be a head-on-head chicken game. If this goes on, I will ask everyone their opinion, but the far wings, and ask these last.

 

[Black_Hole]

Ash

We still need to adjust the Consuls a bit, we need to divide them into Foreign Affairs, Trade and Culture Consul, Science and Technology Consul, Domestic Consul and a Military Consul. Ash, you know from last game that we really need to think on the long term planning for the military, and I remember you as one of the strongest proponents for using this to stop wild brushfire wars getting out of hand, and other reasons.

Same applies to Directors. Honestly, Strider on the one side and DS and his posse on the other side, do not want to touch their respective "master-pieces" and have crawled down into the trenches and confusing the debate in order to keep us and out input out, they want this to be a head-on-head chicken game. If this goes on, I will ask everyone their opinion, but the far wings, and ask these last.

i know you say you know, but you keep bringing this up. wait until after first term to modify the offices like that! you keep saying you know, but you have to always bring it up

btw, thanks YNCS!

 

[Strider]

#1. What prevents a leader from not seeking the WotP on an issue, thus making the call themself. For example, the leader does not post between game sessions, and posts instructions mere hours before the game session. Specifically, what law prevents this.

Article D. sets it as a leaders responsibility to determine and implement the will of the people. Part of there job, if they don't do it then they can be impeached.

Article D. The Executive Branch
The Executive branch is responsible for determining and implementing the will of the People, and is headed by the President. The President is charged with organizing and monitoring the affairs of the Ministers, and is also the primary designated player. The President shall take direction from a council of leaders and from other elected and appointed officials via the turnchat instruction thread, including worker actions. The President is also charged with appointing citizens to uncontested elections, the election office, and the Naming Commission.

#2. What prevents a leader from using vague polls and discussions to create gray areas where they can do as they see fit. Specifically, what law prevents this.

Article O. says that a leader must post enough information for the citizens to make an informed decision of a subject. I don't go into greater detail here over what the punishment might be. I figured I'd leave it up to the Judiciary Court Procedures.

Article O. Freedom of Information
All elected/appointed officials are charged with the duty to post enough information for the citizens to make a informed decision. This includes information from the save, discussions, and past polls. Any citizen of the demogame may demand a minister to supply more information. A elected official may appoint a citizen to do this task for them.

Section 1.Ministry Threads
Each Minister shall post a basic department update, every turnchat, inside of there respective Ministry thread. This update must include information about the progress of the minister and there respective duties.

------------

Simple enough, I've got Articles prohibately banning the actions in question. However, you can not just ban the action, because what would be the point of long-term strategy if the directors just discuss and poll everything anyway?

I've thought of almost everything possible, even made culture more powerful by allowing them control of settlers and the formation of provinces. If you find anything that I'm missing, point it out, I'll try to fix it.

 

[Provolution]

We will modify this DURING term one, so we got better Term 2 elections. We are NOT waiting till AFTER Term 1, since then reforms will only count for Term 3.