A cunning plan. You may have to spread it around a bit more to keep him at it but you can force him into the right religion with your spies. Don't pick a spiritual leader in that case
It all depends on how you are planning to win the game. If you think the next 50 turns you can get to a winning position, infiltrate looks best. If you turtle up and go for modern war, I still think setlling is best. But as Snaaty pointed out, short term is probably most important. I guess SY will have a window in between, which shows there is actually a nice balance between the choices.
If i can capture Bantu and inject Philo reli in it that'll give me 25% esp for holy city. Add to 50% stationary spy that'll give me 75% reduction. This is so much that i wouldn't really need SY as even some unmodified esp turns build enough points to capture the necessary techs.
@ dirk:
no, your assumption + calculation is wong (to be honest, i even think totally wrong)
and the link you provided is useless, at least to me... ...dont understand it, am stupid... ...need infos well prepared and in a language i understand...
what i remember myself:
+50 costs in general at the beginning
stationary spy: -50%
your state religion in the city as only reli + ai running other reli: -15%
you having the holy city of that reli: -25%
you having culture on the tile of the city itself, the ai not: -50% (you have to have generated culture there before loosing the city and/or you have to run the spread culture mission once (not sure about that... ...never cared about, complicated it is)
there are even more boni... ...using them ALL drops the costs to somewhere around 15% of beaker rate
overal, it´s pretty confusing, since some boni are added, others multiplied
so lets ask zulan, from the german civ forum, master of the code and civ in general and always willing to explain very complicated stuff to poor ole snaaty:
Spoiler:
quoted from the german civ forum, provided by zulan (thanks)
All modificators are multiplied, so -50% -50% = -75%. Exception: the two religion boni are added, not multiplied.
+50% First of all the espionage costs are 1,5 of the costs of the technology.
-20% If there is a trade route from the any of the spy's city to the host-city. The possibility for a trade route does not count, an actual trade route is needed. It is not always easy to get it because the trade routes are also influenced by player IDs and city numbers. It helps to close borders to players except the host. The best is to place the host-city on an island because oersea trade routes are more profitable and thus prefered.
-25% If the Spy controls the holy city of his state religion and the host-city has this religion.
-15% If the host-city has the Spy's state religion and this religion is not the state religion of the host. So it is best if the spy gets his own religion, spreads it to the host-city and the host has a different religion. this boni is added to the 25% from the holy city
up to -50% for culture of the spy in the host-city. Now this one is pretty tricky, I'll come it it in detail later
+50% if there is a security center in the city - try to avoid it
up to +100% for distance between the spy's capital and the host city - so place it near the capital to get a good value around < 10%
between +100 and -50% for espionage spending. This is also somewhat complicated, so I'll talk about it later.
up to -50% for fortifying the spy in the target city. In 10% increments per turn. Counted from the frist turn where the spy could perform a mission (full movement). This is a must-use except for very rare exceptions.
+200% if couter espionage is active.
I need to talk a little more about the bonus, i hope its not too boring for the readers. This time its the espionage spending multiplier:
Spoiler:
First of all espionage spending refers to the total amount of -Points ever generated by a player. It does not care how the points are distributed or if they have been used.
The formula for the multiplier is:
Code:
(their points * 2 + your points) / (their points + your points * 2)
For equal points this value is 1. It can approach 0.5 if your points are higher than their points or 2.0 vice versa. Using the ratio between your and their points you get the following graph: graph deleted... ...too much details... ...brain hurts
As for generating there always is the base 4 from the palace, the host can not avoid this. The easiest way to boost this multiplier is an early Great Spy. The great spy does not only create 3000 - but also a bonus of about -40% cost (equals to + 67% output) when used around R 100. Hopefully we can demonstrate later on how strong the Great Spy from the wall is in the game itsself.
The modifier applies to every espionage mission, including passive missions against anyone else. So it is easier for a spy to reveal demography data from anyone while the spy is somehow protected by the opposite effect.
One last theory session for now: The culture bonus:
Spoiler:
First of all you need to know that there are two different culture values in a city:
1) The culture of the plot the citiy is placed on. This is usually displayed in the game.
2) The culture of the city itsself. It counts the overall generated culture by the city itsself associated to the owner over time.
The culture bonus for espionage mission is based on the second value. The maximum value is -50% if the spy does have culture in the city and the host does not. It scales linear with the portion of culture between spy and host. Third party culture has no effect.
So how can this happen:
a) The city changes its owner after culture is generated. To generate the bonus the spy can found the city and:
i) Spreads his religion generating culture. If the host has a different state religion it will not generate culture for the host. So one turn with the religion is actually enough for the rest of the game!
ii) Using artists in caste system to generate culture of the spy.
Both do involve gifting the city afterwards. As I said earlier we want to avoid this because it seems to get regulated in pitboss games.
It is helpful to know in war, that this effect often occurs when you capture enemy cities giving the opponent good spots to do missions with the -50% bonus.
but there is another way:
b) The "insert culture" mission. This mission that spreads culture of the spy in the city (2). It spreads 10% of the total generated culture of the city but at least 1 . The requirement for this mission is that there is spy culture on the plot of the city (1)! The cost depends on the amount of generated culture.
To use this, the host founds the spy-city near a city of the spy that will soon get its second (or third) culture expansion. The host never generates any culture in the city. After the culture expansion spreads spy-culture on the plot of the city the spy does a single "insert culture" mission. From now on he gets the full -50% bonus.
There are a few pitfalls to this:
- Creative leaders
- Autospread of the wrong religion
- Any building that generates culture...
I do not konw yet if it might be profitable to spread culture even if the host does generate culture on his own. Maybe this can be explored during the game.
What was the assumption? That i understood it correctly ? From the article it seems like either 15% if running the reli and the target ai not. Or 25% if you have the holy city but it's either of them, they don't cumulate.I'll take a good look at what the german master has to say about this subject as i'm certainly not the espionage expert myself and espionage will probably be vital for proceedings from here. Still capturing Bantu injecting philo reli in it then give it back looks ok?
should bring you 40% boni. the 15% and the 25% are added (the only boni that are added, no idea why, seems weird. but if zulan says so i simply assume it as a fact...). will point it out clearer in the english text...
and if you get the culture thingy running (which i never really understood fully) you even get another 50% boni...
...
btw. infiltrating quite obviously beats everything else you can do with the gspy... ...you get another 40something% discount on stealing for heaps of points on the ai, if you do it around turn 100... ...says zulan... ...but as he explains it, it seems logic, even to me
With this kind of boni infiltrating seems obvious indeed, you can steal much more than the 2 major techs i mentioned. Basically never need to care about raising esp slider against the target again. Espionage costs lots of hammers btw but i can overcome that by whipping spies in cities that don't have GG's settled.
Can you post your 1 AD save btw? I'm curious about how things are going at your end.
how i switched to hr + org.reli... ...very informative... ...i dont even remember the turn it was when i switched
and how i got a gspy next turn... ...weird isnt it... ...like future communicating with the past (my laptop went out of battery, so the save is from the past turn)
now i will have a more detailled look at dirks save. but if my memory doesnt fail me, it was way above my save... ...so i guess deity aw2 was my go, this one is more likely dirks run (i might continue from his save also, but we will see)
...
edit adds:
yes, dirk is like lightyears ahead of me in basically everything...
...
edit 2 adds:
@ dirk:
is it intentional that you stack your spies in 1 city? i count 3 of them... ...each stacked spy increases prop. of getting discovered for ALL spies by 100% (or was it even 200%?... ...ZULAN, ZULAN, ZULAN... ...maybe it works even here if you shout it 3x) and reduces chances of success with your mission by 10%... ...it will cost you gazillons of spies if you keep going that way. assuming my 100% and 10% are right, with 3 spies you have +200% of getting discovered each turn for all 3 which is +600% more chances of loosing one each turn AND your chances of success should only be around 75%... ...in aw 2, i lost a max. of 6-8 spies throughout all of the game and all my missions were executed at odds around 95% success rate (see my screens there). i used 2 spy cities and avoided stacking spies at all costs. it is a bit more expensive to use 2 spy cities due to the bigger distance of the second city, but in the long run, it will pay off for sure to save all that hammer in spies and get your techsteals at higher odds...
Didn't know that. I know the basics of espionage but i haven't used it that often. I noticed that i lost rather a lot of spies indeed but thought that was normal. I also noticed success rate varying from 70 to 90. In hindsight i know that you are correct, i recall instances in other games where i had only one spy left in a city and that i was amazed how long it lasted. This will help, apparently you learn new mechanics lpaying AW .
@ dirk:[/B]
is it intentional that you stack your spies in 1 city? i count 3 of them... ...each stacked spy increases prop. of getting discovered for ALL spies by 100% (or was it even 200%?... ...ZULAN, ZULAN, ZULAN... ...maybe it works even here if you shout it 3x) and reduces chances of success with your mission by 10%... ...it will cost you gazillons of spies if you keep going that way. assuming my 100% and 10% are right, with 3 spies you have +200% of getting discovered each turn for all 3 which is +600% more chances of loosing one each turn AND your chances of success should only be around 75%... ...in aw 2, i lost a max. of 6-8 spies throughout all of the game and all my missions were executed at odds around 95% success rate (see my screens there). i used 2 spy cities and avoided stacking spies at all costs. it is a bit more expensive to use 2 spy cities due to the bigger distance of the second city, but in the long run, it will pay off for sure to save all that hammer in spies and get your techsteals at higher odds...
b) The "insert culture" mission. This mission that spreads culture of the spy in the city (2). It spreads 10% of the total generated culture of the city but at least 1 . The requirement for this mission is that there is spy culture on the plot of the city (1)! The cost depends on the amount of generated culture.
To use this, the host founds the spy-city near a city of the spy that will soon get its second (or third) culture expansion. The host never generates any culture in the city. After the culture expansion spreads spy-culture on the plot of the city the spy does a single "insert culture" mission. From now on he gets the full -50% bonus.
There are a few pitfalls to this:
- Creative leaders
- Autospread of the wrong religion
- Any building that generates culture...
I do not konw yet if it might be profitable to spread culture even if the host does generate culture on his own. Maybe this can be explored during the game.
I am confused=/. Am I founding the host city and letting it get culturally pressured and making sure to produce zero culture in it myself or is the enemy Civ founding it and I am doing a spread culture mission.
How do the border pops of the other city come into play?
ok, it seems i got half of it almost right... ....the success chances of a mission decrese by 15% for each stacked spy, not 10%. it´s the same factor btw. that an enemy spy on the same tile would do (15%). there is nothing mentioned of a treshold...
the detection thingy i apparently got totally wrong. it also only increases by 15% for each spy and all is multiplied somehow in the end (eirmeimirmiglghmpf-value)
and again, the values seem to be added and/or multiplied on a random basis (or with a system that is way above me)
-> for me, this rule usually worked good:
dont stack spies eirmhglsmf-values are evil
sorry, but this spoiler is in german, too lazy right now to translate: success of a mission:
abfangGegenSpion = 15%, wenn auf dem Feld ein Spion des zielTeams ist
ODER eine Stadt des Zielteams mit einem Sicherheitsdienst.
abfangGegenSpionage = 20%, Wenn eine Gegenspionagemission ausgeführt wurde und noch wirkt.
abfangNeueMission = 15%, Wenn der ausführende Spion nicht befestigt ist
ODER mehrere Spione des ausführenden Spielers auf dem Feld stehen.
chances of getting detected:
Spoiler:
This is (hopefully!) a complete summary of how spy detection and interception works. All numbers are assuming an unmodified version of the game. For the sake of consistency, this example will assume that "we" or "us" are the ones spying, and "they" or "them" are the ones defending.
There are a number of variables to take into consideration. The first is the intercept modifer. If we have an Open Borders treaty with them, we have "ESPIONAGE_SPY_NO_INTRUDE_INTERCEPT_MOD", or ESNIIM = 10 (it's stored as -90, but the actual value is used as "100 + ESNIIM"). If not, we have "ESPIONAGE_SPY_INTERCEPT_MOD", or ESIM = 25 (or -75). The next variable is the ratio of total espionage points between us and them. That is the complete total amount of espionage points ever put in, not merely the points we have put into them or vice versa. Let's call our total points as OME, and theirs as TME, and the ratio as REP. The formula for the ratio is: TME / (TME + OME). This number is multiplied by a variable called "ESPIONAGE_INTERCEPT_SPENDING_MAX", or EISM, which is defined as 25.
Next is counter-spying. Counter-spying can be accomplished in two ways - by them having a spy on the square we are on, or by them having built the Security Bureau in the city we are in. If that's the case, that triggers the "ESPIONAGE_INTERCEPT_COUNTERSPY" or EIC, value of 15. Next, is the possibility that they have ran the counter-intelligence mission against us. If that's the case, they triggered "ESPIONAGE_INTERCEPT_COUNTERESPIONAGE_MISSION" , or EICM which is defined as 20. And finally, if our spy just moved onto the square, or if we already have a spy on that square, we trigger "ESPIONAGE_INTERCEPT_RECENT_MISSION", or EIRM, value of 15.
The complete formulas, assuming all values are relevant is:
((EISM * REP) + EIC + EICM + EIRM) * ESNIIM (Open Borders)
((EISM * REP) + EIC + EICM + EIRM) * ESIM (No Open Borders)
Note that the:
((EISM * REP) + EIC + EICM + EIRM)
part of the formula is capped at a range of 0..100.
Once the formula is used to get a number, the game generates a random number from 0..9999. If the random number is greater or equal to the number generated by the formula, then the spy is not discovered. If the random number is less than the number from the formula, the spy is caught.
A couple examples to give some concrete numbers:
Our spy moves on to their tile where they have a spy. We don't have an open borders treaty with them. They have not run a counter-intelligence mission on us. We have generated a total EPs of 1000 over the game, they have generated 3000.
So percentage-wise, they have a 12.2% chance of detecting our spy.
Another example. Our spy has been sitting on a square for 2 turns, they have no spy on the square, they have not run a counter-intelligence mission, and we have an Open Borders treaty with them. Let's reverse the EPs from above (so we have generated 3000, they have generated 1000).
^Thx,also to Zulan.I'm from Holland so i can at least read German reasonably well, i'm not so good at the language as i would like to be however, hurts when i'm on holiday there.
I looked at your save,
Spoiler:
Lots of land and cities. You have more room than i have with the blockcity located as it is. Tech is a bit of a problem in your game but you have all of your spy points still to spend so you can catch up. It looks ok actually. I'm thinking of founding the crab city myself, it's a very good site and it brings much needed health but it's a bit awkward defending it if the Ais come knocking.
Maybe i should found it, put religion in it and see what happens. Don't invest infra,granary -> whip spies. If Ais go for it hand it over and enjoy the reli esp advantage. I don't think other cities will be threatened by an ai capturing it. Then again a stationary stack may grow slowly and then head for the capital or the spice city. I would need to be ready for that.
If I read it correctly the number of spies does not stack, both succes chance and detection chance are influenced if the spy just arrived or if one or more spy is on the tile. So you should do missions with 1 spy at the time or take the penalty and take all your spies to the best city.
After all these years of extensive analysis still some new usefull insights on the game, amazing.
yes, this game is really amazing. sadly, i highly doubt we will every see another game with such deep strat. varieties
-> @ dirk, concerning your game:
you are doing very well techwise. dont forget that this state is not a permanent one. if i were you, i would try to get asap to engineering and capture as many cities with maces/phants/trebs as you can. maybe even begin wit catas. these units should last at least 30 turns if you get them in a timely manner and in my opinion constant pressure is the only way to slow the ai down enough for winning later.
if you can bring the war around 500 AD to the first ai, and are able to take something like 4-6 decent cities pre 1200 AD (rifles), you might really have high odds of making it this time. to keep up later (for the bigger techs, around education and such) you need the additional land to do so (castesystem+guilds+workshops+forge = lots of money each helper city can build)
...
concerning my game:
dont know right now if i will continue it or simply switch to your save in case i continue here... ...i dont really care which save i play, best save is always fine to play, no?
^ War at 500 AD? Looks very iffy. I don't have that much units right now. Depends a bit on Cathy's research but engineering might be somewhere in the distant future she hasn't even got MC yet. If i were to go to war now i'd have to steal construction/hbr now. But even then i'd need defense first in blockcity. 1 Blockcity means it has to defend against huge stacks. I need ~15 units around 500 AD in that city to go without losses i think. If i were to war soon i need to get t Charlie before engineering. He'll have longbows but it's really castles that halt medieval war, takes forever to bombard down and the ais will be nibbling if not worse at your stack. After engineering you need something less tedious than trebs i feel, curis with esp revolts looks alright, might knights do the same trick? They don't ignore city walls which is probably very bad for this sort of attack.
A war would leave me completely stranded techwise, I'd have to deep whip all cities for units i feel to stand a chance of defeating Charles quick. And it has to be quick and convincing else my units will just be stranded far from home slowly (or quickly) dying against collateral attacks and new units coming from everywhere.
Techwise the empire will last until ~ 1500 AD i feel with espionage even without esp bonuses. With clam city, Bantu (either as an extra city or given back for esp bonus) and a city behind Bntu i'll have 12-13 cities, not really less than Ais on this map i guess. If i could get curis around 1100 AD i could then run over Charlie easily with some revolts and brute force.
Curious to see what you would make of my save. Also how you would continue your own, your choice.
whip everything into oblivion and see where i could get with a stack big enough
like i posted there in the summary, keeping the eco afloat is highly overated, at least in my opinion, when you are running a spy eco. i would go for heavy whipping cycles and try to get a stack of 10 precision catas + 5 cr3 catas + maybe 20 units to take cities.
from my experience, if you have a stack big enough, ai simply ignores it and goes for your blocking city still. simply stay away with your stack from said city so the stacks there cant reach it.
if i remember right, we even have phants, no? phants + catas + maces are strong enough to crack at least some cities i would say.
...
but that is only how i would play. it might as well work out to wait until later and attack with more advanced units, like you mentioned it. it would be interesting to see how this will play out
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... ...need infos well prepared and in a language i understand...
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