Deity benchmarking

[TheMeInTeam]

I have a small request for planning purposes from the Civ V experts. I am looking not for specific strategies or anything like that, but rather for benchmarks. For example in another thread I saw something like "archer rush t25" or "xbow rush t55" (assuming standard speed on those). Those are tight margins and require some tricks, but that's to be expected on deity.

The important thing to me are those numbers. In playing a game, it's hard to know when a minutiae decision is a mistake or not, because even if you watch others your own situation is not identical. If you set a decent rule-of-thumb benchmark to play with, then you can see if you're on pace for a given goal without playing 100 turns, but rather start noticing you're falling behind after 10. It makes it easier to find and correct mistakes.

But as a non-expert, I don't know what I'm missing or where the aiming point should be. So, could someone point to beaker values and city counts by x turn that you feel is most relevant? For example 30 beakers by t30, or 200 by another turn. I'd like it for the following, plus any you think are more important, if any of you can give a rough "ideal or average winning turn" estimate off the top of your head:

- Beakers on given turns (3 or 4 targets), special consideration for NC
- 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th city timings for tradition/honor/liberty/piety (4th if applicable)
- Improved tiles (this was huge in Civ IV but the yield disparity is less so other emphasis might win, not sure)
- Social policies by x date
- Faith accumulation
- Chivalry
- Machinery
- Artillery
- Nukes
- Battleships

I can sort out late game stuff myself, the foundations will be there or not by then. I also understand that game-to-game the land and neighbor situation will put a good bit of variance on the above, but I'm looking for general aiming points that will function on deity if you reach them.

 

[stormtrooper412]

I'm assuming you want individual benchmarks so you can then average them out. Mine are obviously far from exact:

Beakers on given turns (3 or 4 targets), special consideration for NC

Education between 105 and 115, the numbers of beakers is around there at that point +/- 10%. NC as late as 85-90. Scientific Theory between 160 and 170, and schools within the same timeframe if I can afford to rushbuy them. Plastics and RLabs around turn 200.

If I'm going Culture, I follow the same Education plan and then swinging back to Printing Press by 125-130. It depends though, if my next policy can be timed as the Rationalism opener then I rather go Acoustics, whichever is faster. Then I try to have Archaeology in the 160-170 range. Internet as late as 230-240 to make a culture win remotely possible.

If I'm going diplomacy, pretty much the same game plan, except I try to time globalization before the UN vote, which in most of my games starts around 250.

For Domination: CBS as late as 65, XBs around 110-120 for the early phase, dunno about the middle phase, and XCOMs around 230 for the endgame decapitation strike

1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th city timings for tradition/honor/liberty/piety (4th if applicable)

2nd city by turn 30, 3rd by 40-45, 4th around 60. I usually play a 4-city-TTP. Liberty makes the first expo around the same time (wait for the free one) and then I usually have 5-6 cities by turn 70, and add more if I can spare the happiness. Piety about the same as Tradition, with Honor I go 2-3 cities and try to take the rest. But I obviously don't play Honor much

Improved tiles (this was huge in Civ IV but the yield disparity is less so other emphasis might win, not sure)

to be continued....

 

[budweiser]

What kind of game do you want to play, science or conquest? Science is so important in Civ V.

All the best benchmarks come from getting good dirt in your zone. You know, salt & wheat.

Look for Sadato's guide on OCC science to learn the ways of science.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=467359

Then look for a Babylon immortal map that I posted awhile back. This one had 250-500 beakers by Public Schools. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=526778


Then look at my Polish OCC diety challenge. Artillery circa 150 to 180. IIRC.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=528303

You will see some of the best players hitting some of the benchmarks you want.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

500 beakers t150, pretty nasty. I need to see earlier stuff too though, it really climbs from 50-150 in bursts. I'm going to have to plan gold expenditures better to put up the universities and public schools in better timing.

What about shrines/temples/etc? Timing social policies seems an important step too for growth/production/happiness reasons.

 

[budweiser]

500 beakers t150, pretty nasty. I need to see earlier stuff too though, it really climbs from 50-150 in bursts. I'm going to have to plan gold expenditures better to put up the universities and public schools in better timing.

What about shrines/temples/etc? Timing social policies seems an important step too for growth/production/happiness reasons.

Religion can be a crap shoot. You have to spend resources on that first shrine.

Ideally, you want to buy the uni & public school on the very turn you research it. Oxford for Plastics. Have the money sitting there. Dont forget you can still take out loans from the AI.

People like to get just 6 policies (Tradition) before Renaissance so they can easily get Rationalism/secularism.

 

[Grendeldef]

I'm not too keen on benchmarks as the game has so many variables and the only ones I'm even remotely interested are NC before T105 and either Education or Machinery by T125. That generally means that I haven't fallen seriously behind and the follow up is just a matter of execution. The times are very modest even for Liberty as I don't do Tradition but getting a tech on Txxx isn't an end but the mean to get somewhere. Bpt should pass the turn time ~T120 but after it depends on the pursued VC.
Suitable target times for those could be T85 & T115.

There's absolutely no point rushing into Education with half a dozen 4 pop cities and no money for Unis. Same with unit techs; they're pointless unless one can actually upgrade, buy or build the said units.

The ongoing DCL series offers quite a lot data but requires some back tracking & info mining. Many, me included, have given the turn time of core techs/buildings/whatever is various play throughs and unlike some more abstract, more optimal times they offer some true times with less than optimal starts while any given tech or building wasn't the end point but on a path to victory.
If you can get Maddjinn back to making Civ5 LPs I can make time to browse my own games & give the data from those

On things like fpt I wouldn't set any sort of benchmark as it's pointless - either you get solid fpt or not based mostly on dirt you settle but other than that it's usually not the best use of resources.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I'm not too keen on benchmarks as the game has so many variables and the only ones I'm even remotely interested are NC before T105 and either Education or Machinery by T125. That generally means that I haven't fallen seriously behind and the follow up is just a matter of execution. The times are very modest even for Liberty as I don't do Tradition but getting a tech on Txxx isn't an end but the mean to get somewhere. Bpt should pass the turn time ~T120 but after it depends on the pursued VC.
Suitable target times for those could be T85 & T115.

There's absolutely no point rushing into Education with half a dozen 4 pop cities and no money for Unis. Same with unit techs; they're pointless unless one can actually upgrade, buy or build the said units.

The ongoing DCL series offers quite a lot data but requires some back tracking & info mining. Many, me included, have given the turn time of core techs/buildings/whatever is various play throughs and unlike some more abstract, more optimal times they offer some true times with less than optimal starts while any given tech or building wasn't the end point but on a path to victory.
If you can get Maddjinn back to making Civ5 LPs I can make time to browse my own games & give the data from those

On things like fpt I wouldn't set any sort of benchmark as it's pointless - either you get solid fpt or not based mostly on dirt you settle but other than that it's usually not the best use of resources.

I've been reading through those too. I'm catching up, it will be a bit before I can do deity myself though. I'm weak on basic things like when it's a better deal to build a temple or when it's worth my while to invest in culture buildings right now vs managing money.

I am aware that benchmarks can't be perfect, they never could be in Civ. Even so, you have a few despite that the ones I list aren't ones you like. For example you mentioned actually being able to build the universities; this means your priority isn't on the technology but on having the structures completed, but this is still a priority for you in many cases. I feel that would be somewhat captured in a beakers output benchmark. This is also why I sought a distinction between openers though, it will be pretty different for different social policies just like for example Civil Service and Education timings were different between liberalism and draft rifles in Civ IV versus the rare medieval rush tactics vs unusual land to expand big and to something in Industrial era. I expect similar timing variances between honor/trad/liberty/piety, and variations within any given one due to military threat from neighbors + land. I understand that, I just want a rough aiming point so that I start looking for mistakes I might have made if I'm not seeing it.

I'm going to have a hard enough time coaxing Mad to blast the Ottomans sooner in our EU IV game, I'll leave any civ V stuff he does up to him ^_^.

 

[stormtrooper412]

Continuation if anyone cares:

Improved tiles

As much as I can, a bit impossible to give a good estimation, I try to improve luxuries first, then strategics. Once I got money for them, I go for the ones with mixed yield (farm river hills, pastures etc) and once the bulk has been quickly done, I then work at a rate of one tile improvement per 1 population point.

Social policies by x date

Again, difficult to estimate because it depends on the gameplan. Usually I finish Tradition around 90 and from there it's fairly linear to Rationalism (science), Aesthetics (Culture) or Patronage (diplo)

Faith accumulation

Around 10-15 fpt in the time of founding, I try to get at least 2 GPs worth of faith by the end, which makes it around 2500 faith.

Chivalry

Only important if Arabian/Mongolian domination: around 100-110

The rest I don't know, I get both Nukes and Battleships a good bit after Plastics, so let's go with 230ish

 

[Grendeldef]

For example you mentioned actually being able to build the universities; this means your priority isn't on the technology but on having the structures completed, but this is still a priority for you in many cases. I feel that would be somewhat captured in a beakers output benchmark.

Yup, if I'm going Edu before Machinery the infra is important but the early turns are capital driven so it pretty much dictates the path. With lower pop cities Workshops before Unis is justified especially if one can get Ironworks built before LToP comes available.
When taking Machinery first after that it's pretty much beelining Edu regardless of other factors.

This is also why I sought a distinction between openers though, it will be pretty different for different social policies just like for example Civil Service and Education timings were different between liberalism and draft rifles in Civ IV versus the rare medieval rush tactics vs unusual land to expand big and to something in Industrial era. I expect similar timing variances between honor/trad/liberty/piety, and variations within any given one due to military threat from neighbors + land.

Well, as I said I don't do Tradition in any meaningful manner so I can't comment on that and I feel Honor is something where things just happen on their own pace and conquered cities are integrated when happiness permits - other things are secondary or obsolete.
Piety is just kicks & laughs as an opener so with it I'll go like Honor, no specific times for anything but I'm not looking for fast win times - I like fooling around as long as the game isn't significantly changed to offer better competition.
As for older versions I came here straight from Civ II so I can't compare this with CIV

One of the problems with game and a reason why benchmarks aren't that important is that SBs & XCOMs will solve pretty much all previous problems in any game - the first xxx turns before that is just hanging around.

I'm going to have a hard enough time coaxing Mad to blast the Ottomans sooner in our EU IV game, I'll leave any civ V stuff he does up to him ^_^.

Damn renegades - the peasants want LPs but this seems like a problem that even the XCOMs can't resolve.

 

[Light Cleric]

I'm not too keen on benchmarks as the game has so many variables and the only ones I'm even remotely interested are NC before T105 and either Education or Machinery by T125. That generally means that I haven't fallen seriously behind and the follow up is just a matter of execution. The times are very modest even for Liberty as I don't do Tradition but getting a tech on Txxx isn't an end but the mean to get somewhere. Bpt should pass the turn time ~T120 but after it depends on the pursued VC.
Suitable target times for those could be T85 & T115.

There's absolutely no point rushing into Education with half a dozen 4 pop cities and no money for Unis. Same with unit techs; they're pointless unless one can actually upgrade, buy or build the said units.

The ongoing DCL series offers quite a lot data but requires some back tracking & info mining. Many, me included, have given the turn time of core techs/buildings/whatever is various play throughs and unlike some more abstract, more optimal times they offer some true times with less than optimal starts while any given tech or building wasn't the end point but on a path to victory.
If you can get Maddjinn back to making Civ5 LPs I can make time to browse my own games & give the data from those

On things like fpt I wouldn't set any sort of benchmark as it's pointless - either you get solid fpt or not based mostly on dirt you settle but other than that it's usually not the best use of resources.

If you can find a way to get him back to it I'd be happy, too

I agree with Grendeldef for the most part, my only thing is I tend to want to have NC done by about t95, because usually going much later than that is a good sign that I screwed up something in my game plan unless I'm doing some really goofy strategy to mix things up.

 

[Grendeldef]

I agree with Grendeldef for the most part, my only thing is I tend to want to have NC done by about t95, because usually going much later than that is a good sign that I screwed up something in my game plan unless I'm doing some really goofy strategy to mix things up.

I'm not disagreeing at all but I noticed at some point that with Liberty the timing of the NC doesn't make much of a difference at all especially when the capital is most often around 8 pop so I stopped buying the last Library and instead used the money for something else, 2 Archers for example.

I'm happy if can build NC around T85 or even before but that's not much of priority anymore besides I don't wanna spent 20+ turn+ on building it. If however one starts with Tradition and the capital is somewhere 12-15 pop by T100 the situation is drastically different.

Moreover, Goofy & Strategy are my middle names so everything I say & do should be viewed with that in mind - the DCLs are proof of that.

And I could do with new El Cid - the conquering hero - LPs, too.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

There's a lot of quality Civ V footage these days (not like Civ IV where at the start it was only me or a guy playing on the lowest difficulty), surprised to see demand for even more at this stage of the game. Even I get requests for it on my channel despite that I haven't done a Civ V LP since broken vanilla days, but I'm still doing EU IV and HOMM V. I won't consider Civ V LP myself unless I become confident as a deity player, and if that happens it will not happen overnight.

A lot will depend on how good or bad next EU patch turns out to be, but at least Civ V will be in my regular rotation again for a bit. I'll reach immortal strength again very quickly as even derping a bit on immortal with tremendous #mistakes it's pretty forgiving, but for deity I'll at least have to take the game seriously.

 

[budweiser]

Is HOMM V worth playing? I used to love HOMM. I'm so bored with civ, I cant play a whole game. I see its been out for quite a long time.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Is HOMM V worth playing? I used to love HOMM. I'm so bored with civ, I cant play a whole game. I see its been out for quite a long time.

I like HOMM V a lot. I still need to try IV and VI. But for V, it has a lot of the III feel with a few key differences. V's magic system is a bit better balanced than III and the heroes function similarly to III (though they can melee attack somewhat weakly in lieu of a spell), even V's music is excellent (V's battle themes are better than III's ^_^, though I think III wins town theme).

Overall, yes it's worth playing. I'm LPing the expansions now and not regretting the playthrough, it's been a fun ride.

 

[stormtrooper412]

HoMM V had one really really good epic battle, the rest was fairly easy

 

[Acken]

- Beakers on given turns (3 or 4 targets), special consideration for NC
- 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th city timings for tradition/honor/liberty/piety (4th if applicable)
- Improved tiles (this was huge in Civ IV but the yield disparity is less so other emphasis might win, not sure)
- Social policies by x date
- Faith accumulation
- Chivalry
- Machinery
- Artillery
- Nukes
- Battleships

-I don't really pay attention to beaker numbers :/ 100 ish before universities, 500 after schools, 1000 after labs.
-All your cities that will require a library for the NC should be made before turn 50ish. So if you go 3 city NC or 4 city NC the last one will be settled at a different time. For a 3 city NC I often get 35 and 45 settling times.
-Not sure what you mean... improve luxs and strategic ressources first sothat you can sell stuff. Then other special tiles. Other than that improve fresh water farms and 1-2 mine per city (if you don't already have horses, stones, sheeps etc for production)
-Finish your first tree before T90. You will get 1 or 2 more policies before rationalism then it's usually rationalism until ideology in the 160-170.
-Faith is 100% map dependent.
-Chivalry ? It's not usually an important benchmark unless you play Mongolia/Arabia. If you rush for it you should get it around T100. T120-130 if after Education.
-Machinery is same as Chivalry, around T100 if you rush for it.
-Artilleries are between T150 and T170.
-Been too long I've used nukes
-Battleships are in the T200 region.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

-I don't really pay attention to beaker numbers :/ 100 ish before universities, 500 after schools, 1000 after labs.
-All your cities that will require a library for the NC should be made before turn 50ish. So if you go 3 city NC or 4 city NC the last one will be settled at a different time. For a 3 city NC I often get 35 and 45 settling times.
-Not sure what you mean... improve luxs and strategic ressources first sothat you can sell stuff. Then other special tiles. Other than that improve fresh water farms and 1-2 mine per city (if you don't already have horses, stones, sheeps etc for production)
-Finish your first tree before T90. You will get 1 or 2 more policies before rationalism then it's usually rationalism until ideology in the 160-170.
-Faith is 100% map dependent.
-Chivalry ? It's not usually an important benchmark unless you play Mongolia/Arabia. If you rush for it you should get it around T100. T120-130 if after Education.
-Machinery is same as Chivalry, around T100 if you rush for it.
-Artilleries are between T150 and T170.
-Been too long I've used nukes
-Battleships are in the T200 region.

I appreciate this. Along with several of your write-ups it's pretty insightful. Now to practice more.

 

[Acken]

People usually refer to the foundation or early game the period between the start to education or renaissance. That's why many people make their opening moves write up up to that date in the GOTM section.

The ideal timing for education is 90 to 110 depending on difficulty, civ and map for a tradition game. Liberty games usually add 5 to 10 turns to that due to the Engineering detour and slower growth.

For pure practice at those timings people usually suggest playing a tradition game. It's the easier tree of the 2 and will yield consistent results. Liberty is more suited to people having their basis down and who want a change. Liberty is also a good practice tree for any form of pre industrial warfare.

If you are looking into practicing tradition then I suggest the very popular 3 city NC. After exploration phase pick the 2 best city spots and settle those first. The city with the best ratio of food and production (salts, stones, horses) should make Granary + Library while the 3rd can get a rush of one or the other. Rushing the Granary is the better option IF YOU CAN still make the Library in time (not lagging behind the 2 other cities).
In a few words:

Exploration: 2 scouts is the bare minimum. If you get an early culture ruin you can skip monument and add a third (if Pangea). Steal workers with that lot, do not hesitate to steal workers that may appear a bit far.
Settling: I suggest making a shrine before settling (unless you have found 2 religious CS, have access to a faith wonder etc). Start making settler early after your initial builds (scouts, shrine, monument, archer if raging barbs). Make 2.
From settling to NC: Expansions and Capital should be making granary and library (possible rush buy). The capital having a way better production need to get also the following: Trade routes, additional worker if not enough steals, some archers or spearmen, a wonder (often ToA if difficulty allows it).
After NC: Make a new settler and send a route asap to that city. Then go toward Education.

Pay close attention to the needs of cultural city states. Finishing Tradition early is a huge boost.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I'm starting to get a sense of the timing and what needs to go where. Food stacking the cap with internal routes seems pretty nice for tradition.

 

[consentient]

My own benchmarks are like this:

1st Capital captured + XBs online by T120 at latest.
5th Capital captured + Artillery online by T180 at latest
7th Capital captured before they get Bombers