Agree with this. Also, in my experience, the AI will generally try to match the EPs that you have stockpiled against them. If you cannot steal 9000 EPs worth of techs quickly (since you are only in the Ancient or Classical era) the AI will raise its own EP slider, which makes it harder for Spy missions to succeed and, worse still, this stops your target from researching, thereby limiting your tech stealing options.I support the settling, here.
+3000 EPs from infiltration would allow to steal 5-8.000 beakersBCs are too early to infiltrate! Maybe when the Renaissance comes.
100+ ep/turn will get all the classical era techs, no problem. Maybe there's a slight delay in comparison with infiltration but the settled spies are getting nice value.
Delay = not so sure, since the hammer cost for stealing 10 techs is rather huge at that point (maaany spies).
[DEITY] OCC Brutal: Always war, Open land, Tech Trade enabled, against tech leaders.
- Thread starter ScorpionK
- Start date
Here is the last chapter: the glorious time for Mali empire even with some false intel.
I did assume that Hannibal will get infantry soon as he already got Assembly Line, only rifling left for him, which he may trade with Darius or research himself. So I go for Shaka and Monty first, to use my super rifle until they could upgrade to infantry.
So, Shaka is the next victim, got his capital burn to ground in 1366 AD.
I won't bore you with some easy fight, only 17 turn after the first battle, Shaka of Ottomans says goodbye and sorry for not being able to entertain my super heroes anymore.
Then I move on to Monty of Viking, eat his cities one by one from north to south. Down to his capital.
And then, 21 turns after Shaka, Monty also says his goodbye. Goodbye Monty, you won't be missed.
As you know, I assume that Hannibal is researching Rifling so he will got infantry but as it turns out, he research Fascism all this time. ( no fight is going on, and he never got an winning fight anyway, so GG at the moment only mean 1 thing, Fascism)
Because of this mistake, I lost about 5-7 turn as I send heroes home to get upgrade to infantry in 1450 AD. Now, even if Hanni got infantry, I just don't care.
After getting Assembly line, it's true that Hanni went for fascism instead of rifling, what a decision.
Here is Hanni's land, I not quite sure about how fighting odd with some hill cities, so I put EP into Hanni for now.
But as it turn out, no need for spy revolt. Hanni is a sitting duck now.
No need to support the heroes now, I gear my civs back to all out war, Police state and slavery together. And see how high my overflow. Those troops will be clean up troops cause Jao and Hanni got themselves some new cities in the land of monty and shaka.
While my GGs wrecking havoc in Hanni's land, they put together some desperate force. Can't they see that they got zero chance to win.
Hanni down to 1 city, which is a new settled city. I pay no attention to that city and make my way to Jao's land, the cleanup troops will take care of that city later.
And this is the reason why EE is not good for long term, the security bureau. I know that if I wait 5 turns, the cost will goes down, but it's still some number like 2000 EP, which is too much. Despite that people often think EE is the best in this era, in fact, it's not. If we take this into consideration, the rifle war will be more attractive, and infiltration mission will be better choice than settled. Lesson learned.
In the meantime, 6 GGs make their entrance to Jao's land, taking Bombay. Jao got very few units at home cause he put everything to the front (my capital). Jao's day is numbered.
With the leftover EP in Darius account, I blow up security bureau, and steal the last tech, the dead end-wasting tech, Military Science, only for commando promotion.
With commando promotion, the GGs goes back to clean up leftover Darius, while the new troops slowly burn down other cities. Darius still got some units in his hand which might cause some trouble for cleanup troops.
And it's time to say goodbye to Akkad, the dear neighbor city which provided my so many tech. Thank you, you served your duty until the very end. How funny it got border expand the same turn it got burn down.
Not long after Darius, Jao left the world 1518 AD.
This crazy, brutal challenge comes to an very satisfy ending, conquest victory in 1520 AD.
This game by no mean is an optima game, the winning date might be sooner. And I really wish that somehow, someone will try another strategy which is winnable. Maybe someone want to try it? I just update the starting save in the first post.
A lot lesson has learned from this game. Thank you all for reading and wish you enjoy it.
P.S: I am open to new suggestion.
I did assume that Hannibal will get infantry soon as he already got Assembly Line, only rifling left for him, which he may trade with Darius or research himself. So I go for Shaka and Monty first, to use my super rifle until they could upgrade to infantry.
So, Shaka is the next victim, got his capital burn to ground in 1366 AD.
I won't bore you with some easy fight, only 17 turn after the first battle, Shaka of Ottomans says goodbye and sorry for not being able to entertain my super heroes anymore.
Then I move on to Monty of Viking, eat his cities one by one from north to south. Down to his capital.
And then, 21 turns after Shaka, Monty also says his goodbye. Goodbye Monty, you won't be missed.
As you know, I assume that Hannibal is researching Rifling so he will got infantry but as it turns out, he research Fascism all this time. ( no fight is going on, and he never got an winning fight anyway, so GG at the moment only mean 1 thing, Fascism)
Because of this mistake, I lost about 5-7 turn as I send heroes home to get upgrade to infantry in 1450 AD. Now, even if Hanni got infantry, I just don't care.
After getting Assembly line, it's true that Hanni went for fascism instead of rifling, what a decision.
Here is Hanni's land, I not quite sure about how fighting odd with some hill cities, so I put EP into Hanni for now.
But as it turn out, no need for spy revolt. Hanni is a sitting duck now.
No need to support the heroes now, I gear my civs back to all out war, Police state and slavery together. And see how high my overflow. Those troops will be clean up troops cause Jao and Hanni got themselves some new cities in the land of monty and shaka.
While my GGs wrecking havoc in Hanni's land, they put together some desperate force. Can't they see that they got zero chance to win.
Hanni down to 1 city, which is a new settled city. I pay no attention to that city and make my way to Jao's land, the cleanup troops will take care of that city later.
And this is the reason why EE is not good for long term, the security bureau. I know that if I wait 5 turns, the cost will goes down, but it's still some number like 2000 EP, which is too much. Despite that people often think EE is the best in this era, in fact, it's not. If we take this into consideration, the rifle war will be more attractive, and infiltration mission will be better choice than settled. Lesson learned.
In the meantime, 6 GGs make their entrance to Jao's land, taking Bombay. Jao got very few units at home cause he put everything to the front (my capital). Jao's day is numbered.
With the leftover EP in Darius account, I blow up security bureau, and steal the last tech, the dead end-wasting tech, Military Science, only for commando promotion.
With commando promotion, the GGs goes back to clean up leftover Darius, while the new troops slowly burn down other cities. Darius still got some units in his hand which might cause some trouble for cleanup troops.
And it's time to say goodbye to Akkad, the dear neighbor city which provided my so many tech. Thank you, you served your duty until the very end. How funny it got border expand the same turn it got burn down.
Not long after Darius, Jao left the world 1518 AD.
This crazy, brutal challenge comes to an very satisfy ending, conquest victory in 1520 AD.
This game by no mean is an optima game, the winning date might be sooner. And I really wish that somehow, someone will try another strategy which is winnable. Maybe someone want to try it? I just update the starting save in the first post.
A lot lesson has learned from this game. Thank you all for reading and wish you enjoy it.
P.S: I am open to new suggestion.
Maybe cut down Toa is ok, but what about Great lib. We also need wonder for their culture, considering there is a damn holy city next door.
What gonna happen if we use all 3 Gspy for infiltration?
That's will be crazy fun A really fine point of argument.
I wish to see you try this challenge
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Great finish to a great game, ScorpionK!
I agree that infiltrating all Great Spies might be appealing, but I think that using one Great Spy to construct Scotland Yard makes sense in order for maximizing yield on using the Espionage slider which allows one to put some Espionage on which ever AI will produce the greatest profit from such Espionage investments. Infiltrations place a huge number of Espionage Points (9000E for Marathon) on a single AI and can never be used on another AI.
Was Engineering acquired for Castle's +25% Espionage boost? If so, it seems that a few Trebuchets could be built with Accuracy promotions for reducing Cultural defense. A Spy could destroy Walls rather cheaply which means Castle provides only -25% versus bombard damage; this is a good reason to use one GSpy for Scotland Yard and Espionage slider. Thus six Accuracy Trebuchets may be enough to reduce Castle only defence down to 00% in just one turn. I mention this, because I did not see any seige units in the GG Riflemen stack. This works for Accuracy Catapults too and takes only 8-9 of those to knock down Castle only defense in 1t. Of course I understand that the Heroes awesome promotions means they probably get rather good odds with Cultural defense intact, but 80% cultural defense sounds rather nasty even for them.
Also, seems like stealing Philosophy for Pacifism sounds great. Since we now have Philosophy, stealing Nationalism to run Nationhood for drafting Riflemen and another +25% boost to Espionage sounds really good together too. Is it that much of a stretch to get Constitution for Jails, 4 Ept and +50% Espionage boost? Maybe not for Conquest Victory, but it would make sense for Space Colony Victory where there are a huge number of even bigger Technologies to acquire.
I'm guessing that Nationhood makes sense for a Conquest Victory when one has a 15 Fpt or more start that can sustain a draft every turn with Globe Theatre. This could work out with some AIs beelining Rifling for Rifleman, while others beeline Nationalism for The Taj Mahal. With a combination of both enough Espionage and Espionage discounts, both goals can be pursued at the same time.
Sun Tzu Wu
I agree that infiltrating all Great Spies might be appealing, but I think that using one Great Spy to construct Scotland Yard makes sense in order for maximizing yield on using the Espionage slider which allows one to put some Espionage on which ever AI will produce the greatest profit from such Espionage investments. Infiltrations place a huge number of Espionage Points (9000E for Marathon) on a single AI and can never be used on another AI.
Was Engineering acquired for Castle's +25% Espionage boost? If so, it seems that a few Trebuchets could be built with Accuracy promotions for reducing Cultural defense. A Spy could destroy Walls rather cheaply which means Castle provides only -25% versus bombard damage; this is a good reason to use one GSpy for Scotland Yard and Espionage slider. Thus six Accuracy Trebuchets may be enough to reduce Castle only defence down to 00% in just one turn. I mention this, because I did not see any seige units in the GG Riflemen stack. This works for Accuracy Catapults too and takes only 8-9 of those to knock down Castle only defense in 1t. Of course I understand that the Heroes awesome promotions means they probably get rather good odds with Cultural defense intact, but 80% cultural defense sounds rather nasty even for them.
Also, seems like stealing Philosophy for Pacifism sounds great. Since we now have Philosophy, stealing Nationalism to run Nationhood for drafting Riflemen and another +25% boost to Espionage sounds really good together too. Is it that much of a stretch to get Constitution for Jails, 4 Ept and +50% Espionage boost? Maybe not for Conquest Victory, but it would make sense for Space Colony Victory where there are a huge number of even bigger Technologies to acquire.
I'm guessing that Nationhood makes sense for a Conquest Victory when one has a 15 Fpt or more start that can sustain a draft every turn with Globe Theatre. This could work out with some AIs beelining Rifling for Rifleman, while others beeline Nationalism for The Taj Mahal. With a combination of both enough Espionage and Espionage discounts, both goals can be pursued at the same time.
Sun Tzu Wu
I agree, build SY is more benefit than infiltration, because even with my crappy commerce, it's still 30 CPT with Buro, with 1 spy, mean +34 EPT with SY, pay off infiltration mission after 264 turn, by the time I got Feu in this game, it already more than paid off.
I never consider siege with GG, cause I often use spy revolt, faster and quite cheap. The main reason is all my GG got 2 move, no siege could keep up. I consider they are elite group that hit hard in the back of AIs, so speed is the key.
At the time I got engineering, I only thing about 25% boost, which is might not optima, as my capital got really bad commerce, 25% boost is not that much, consider I have to pay for construction and engineering. Another mistake, maybe?
I totally agree stealing for Philosophy if I aim at Lib. Otherwise, I would like to save that EP on the way to rifling.
Nationhood seems a good choice for an empire, but for OCC, it's not. I actually try to switch to nationhood, but I got less EPT than stay in buro, and at that time, I got 3 settled Gspy.
One more thing, drafting is not attractive consider that I could 1-2 turn whip rifle, not to mention getting full EXP from 3 settled GG.
I am trying this map again with 1settled Gspy, 1 build SY, 1 for infiltration mission. I still going for G.lib cause GS still could bulb PHI faster than stealing, I thought.
Will report when I got something to compare with old game.
I replay the map with some little change, only build oracle, mids, and GW. I still got 3 Gspy which I settled the first, build SY with second and infiltration mission with the third. My fourth GP is G prophet so no more infiltration at the moment.
Here is some comparison so far.
01. The boost in tech stealing discount
Before infiltration mission
And after infiltration mission
You can see that is a real big boost, 22% at once. Instantly give me the Math with 0,5 beaker cost. Let's see if this number could goes down more when I spread enough culture to it.
02. I also take note about the EP that Darius put on me:
At 810 BC, 11 EPT
At 650 BC, 12 EPT
At 590 BC, 13 EPT
So, for now, the increase in EP from darius is not so much, it seems like he not trying to match my EP as I put 84 EPT to him.
03. Tech situation
From my old game, I got Feu in 40 BC.
In this replay, I got Feu in 650 BC, 61 turns earlier.
Of course you know this mean much safer situation, which I could afford to defend with very little army, at the moment, 5 GG and 1 longbow only, in which GG got really high and equal EXP due to the fact that I could farm their EXP sooner with longbow.
My conclusion at the moment:
Indeed, infiltration make the game stronger, much stronger with some nice benefit of looking at darius cities.
By short term, it helps to get key tech much much sooner, like only 3 or 4 turn after darius got it.
By long term, it helps the boost in tech stealing discount, an instant 22% is nearly the religion discount level 1, 25% (not compare with 40% level 2 religion discount)
My replay still going with 1 spy, 2 scientist, and trying to get my G.lib built. I still got 40% of GS and 33% of Gspy, 14% of Gprophet and 13% of GE. Maybe we can still looking for another Gspy. If I got GS, bulb Philosophy, cause roosevelt still monopoly that tech. I still got no academic.
But if I got Gspy, should I settled him or do more infiltration? I got about 11.000 EP in darius account now. He got paper but not CS, and research engineering now.
Here is some comparison so far.
01. The boost in tech stealing discount
Before infiltration mission
And after infiltration mission
You can see that is a real big boost, 22% at once. Instantly give me the Math with 0,5 beaker cost. Let's see if this number could goes down more when I spread enough culture to it.
02. I also take note about the EP that Darius put on me:
At 810 BC, 11 EPT
At 650 BC, 12 EPT
At 590 BC, 13 EPT
So, for now, the increase in EP from darius is not so much, it seems like he not trying to match my EP as I put 84 EPT to him.
03. Tech situation
From my old game, I got Feu in 40 BC.
In this replay, I got Feu in 650 BC, 61 turns earlier.
Of course you know this mean much safer situation, which I could afford to defend with very little army, at the moment, 5 GG and 1 longbow only, in which GG got really high and equal EXP due to the fact that I could farm their EXP sooner with longbow.
My conclusion at the moment:
Indeed, infiltration make the game stronger, much stronger with some nice benefit of looking at darius cities.
By short term, it helps to get key tech much much sooner, like only 3 or 4 turn after darius got it.
By long term, it helps the boost in tech stealing discount, an instant 22% is nearly the religion discount level 1, 25% (not compare with 40% level 2 religion discount)
My replay still going with 1 spy, 2 scientist, and trying to get my G.lib built. I still got 40% of GS and 33% of Gspy, 14% of Gprophet and 13% of GE. Maybe we can still looking for another Gspy. If I got GS, bulb Philosophy, cause roosevelt still monopoly that tech. I still got no academic.
But if I got Gspy, should I settled him or do more infiltration? I got about 11.000 EP in darius account now. He got paper but not CS, and research engineering now.
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Another infiltration of Darius I should make the Espionage Point Spending discount close to -50%. It will make technology stealing significantly cheaper. Darius I is a good target for a second infiltration, since he is often one of the tech leaders.
Settling the next Great Spy is ok too, since it will provide 24 Ept with Scotland Yard and you want a good Ept rate for Support City Revolt.
Maybe GG Cannon unit with Morale to move with the other GG Riflemen? Could just use it to bombard or barrage cities with lower cultural defense so as not to need a Spy for a Support City Revolt mission. Would need Iron in start though.
Winning this second game should really help validate the strategy. Good luck!
Sun Tzu Wu
Settling the next Great Spy is ok too, since it will provide 24 Ept with Scotland Yard and you want a good Ept rate for Support City Revolt.
Maybe GG Cannon unit with Morale to move with the other GG Riflemen? Could just use it to bombard or barrage cities with lower cultural defense so as not to need a Spy for a Support City Revolt mission. Would need Iron in start though.
Winning this second game should really help validate the strategy. Good luck!
Sun Tzu Wu
I got some more news.
At the moment, I got 3 Gprophet right after 3 first Gspy, then 1 GS for academy, then I got lucky and got 4th Gspy, right at the moment I need to steal Rifling.
Tech compare with old game.
I got Rifling in 1005AD in old game, and this replay 900AD, 100 years sooner, which mean 20 turns safer, more time to farm EXP.
But even without 4 Gspy, with new strategy, I could still got rifling at around same time.
This replay, I got unlucky when Darius goes for Nat, Const, Corp, otherwise, I could get rifling much sooner. The one who got it first is Hannibal, who is only please with darius cause darius is free religion. I have to change his civics to get him friendly with Hannibal, and bam, 2 turns later, he got rifling for me.
With 4th Gspy, I instantly steal Rifling and Nationhood. Don't think other GP could get me 2 tech at once like this
With the boost EP spending from 4th Gspy, I got tech for 0,46 beaker cost, quite the same when I settled them.
Conclusion in this report
Infiltration mission still superior than settled, even though in got same discount with settled, but the benefit of having key tech much sooner is so good, ensure safety and tech lead. Only Hani, Darius and me got rifle now, other civs still got long way to go, Roosevelt still go on steel path.
The game is in winning position now as I got 8 GGs, 2 more than last game thanks to the longer time able farming EXP. Still got around 2000 EP in Darius account, and with around 100 EP with slider, enough for spy revolt. I also got same crazy production thanks to GT, HE and slavery, which means rifle in 1-2 turns.
The same winning position as the last game, except that is about 25-30 turns sooner.
The only thing left to do is simply stomp, stomp while tech/steal to infantry so I may stop the game here.
Never cease to surprise me how little change in strategy could make the game much stronger.
At the moment, I got 3 Gprophet right after 3 first Gspy, then 1 GS for academy, then I got lucky and got 4th Gspy, right at the moment I need to steal Rifling.
Tech compare with old game.
I got Rifling in 1005AD in old game, and this replay 900AD, 100 years sooner, which mean 20 turns safer, more time to farm EXP.
But even without 4 Gspy, with new strategy, I could still got rifling at around same time.
This replay, I got unlucky when Darius goes for Nat, Const, Corp, otherwise, I could get rifling much sooner. The one who got it first is Hannibal, who is only please with darius cause darius is free religion. I have to change his civics to get him friendly with Hannibal, and bam, 2 turns later, he got rifling for me.
With 4th Gspy, I instantly steal Rifling and Nationhood. Don't think other GP could get me 2 tech at once like this
With the boost EP spending from 4th Gspy, I got tech for 0,46 beaker cost, quite the same when I settled them.
Conclusion in this report
Infiltration mission still superior than settled, even though in got same discount with settled, but the benefit of having key tech much sooner is so good, ensure safety and tech lead. Only Hani, Darius and me got rifle now, other civs still got long way to go, Roosevelt still go on steel path.
The game is in winning position now as I got 8 GGs, 2 more than last game thanks to the longer time able farming EXP. Still got around 2000 EP in Darius account, and with around 100 EP with slider, enough for spy revolt. I also got same crazy production thanks to GT, HE and slavery, which means rifle in 1-2 turns.
The same winning position as the last game, except that is about 25-30 turns sooner.
The only thing left to do is simply stomp, stomp while tech/steal to infantry so I may stop the game here.
Never cease to surprise me how little change in strategy could make the game much stronger.
Oops, forgot 1 thing, Darius EP slider never go more than 20%, I know that cause with infiltration we could investigate the city. The maximum he got to me is about 23 EPT, IIRC.
So even though he try to match my EP, it is not so much that gonna hurt his research. The fact is that he still research like crazy, with tech trading, he is a true monster.
So even though he try to match my EP, it is not so much that gonna hurt his research. The fact is that he still research like crazy, with tech trading, he is a true monster.
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Regarding Espionage Target: Each leader varies in how much Espionage Slider they are willing to commit to the Player and other AIs. The value is in the XML files somewhere. Darius I has 100 for this value which is nominal/normal/average for this attribute. The values range from Gandhi at 50 to Stalin at 150. Off hand I'm not positive what these values mean, but I believe they are percentages of the normal Ept slider (whatever that is). So Gandhi will commit 50% of normal Espionage rate and Stalin will commit 150% of normal Espionage rate.
Sun Tzu Wu
Sun Tzu Wu
In that case, the logic question will be: what is the normal slider using level of normal AIs? In my game, 20% for Darius, but at some point he put 100% into beaker, like the time he research lib.
I mean with those result, we don't need to worry about AIs will try to match up EP.
But then, I just remember from my 2nd OCC writeup when Sury put more than 600 EP in me, result a massive EP in my account. Which at some point he steal Flight off me, but that's it, wasting nearly 100.000 EP.
Does that mean whatever AIs does base on GNR? They never actually have something like plan??
OCC is about survival, putting you in a hopeless position, being attacked all at once, then seek the win. In my first Always War OCC, it is truly hopeless as I got no tech lead, no good plan, make some terrible mistake. But I win, the longest Civ game I ever play, which make me much more satisfy than win normal way. Just my personal
If you play Oblivion, it's like play with hardest setting from beginning, when even a rat could kick your ass
RagingHordes
Wooden Shoeur
It is rumored that Deity AIs fear ScorpionK. 
Seraiel
If you want anything from I please ask in German
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Best thread from you until now.
Found a minor thing on the screenshots, can it be, that you were not really aware of Guerilla 3 having a huge offensive bonus like Woodsman 3? Or was there a reason why you specced it so late?
Seraiel
Found a minor thing on the screenshots, can it be, that you were not really aware of Guerilla 3 having a huge offensive bonus like Woodsman 3? Or was there a reason why you specced it so late?
Seraiel
It is rumored that Deity AIs fear ScorpionK.
I feel really nice whenever got your compliment, my dear hero
About your question, I do aware of Guerrilla3. But there are some reason for choosing it as the last promotion:
1. Most important, I lack the EXP for it, I need CG 3, Hill 2, Combat 6, Woodsman 3, Morale, March, Drill 4, Pinch, then commando.
2. Consider that G3 give me 25% against hill city, which is overkill. As I use spy revolt with those city anyway.
3. G3 give 30% of retreat, which is also not needed, as the lowest fight my heroes got is 95%. Not to mention retreat only work when I attack.
4. This promotion is lesser than Woodsman 3 in term of offensive power. Woodsman 3 give 50% attack to forest, while G3 only 25% to hill. 2 FS for W3 is so valuable, as we all know. Healing like medic 1 also nice to have.
2 benefits from G3, 1 is overkill, 1 is not needed. That's why I never use them, only for fun, I guess.
EE is so powerful, if combine with your usual religion tactic and AI manipulation, I believe that you could win even with worst possible start.
Seraiel
If you want anything from I please ask in German
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My usual religion tactic? What would that be? (Being serious here) .
I may give this OCC thing a chance, as it really sounds absurd but terrific.
To get me away from HoF play, is really tough though, as it is still the way of the most fun that I know of. "Our greatest desire is to leave a legacy" , are the words of a DJ that James Zabiela featured. There are words, that just make me think, and as I want to keep thinking, there is nothing I can do against them, but maybe join Jakkuza, but I won't do that.
Regarding Guerrilla 3, I think you underestimate that promotion. It's not only about attack, but it's also about survival. As I learned, GGs have a higher chance of dying then normal units, but even if this weren't true, 95% chance of survival means, that the unit will lose a fight, after having fought 20 fights. Tactics + Guerilla 3 give you 80% withdrawl chance as I know, because they stack, and this means, that your 95% fight will have a 99% chance. Regarding how many fights your units have to survive, this is a huge difference, as it means losing 1 of 100 fights, instead of 1 of 20.
I support you on the fact, that Drill is more important, also that combat is more important, yes, even Woodsman, but Pinch, never. Pinch substracks power from your defender. Your attackers have such a high base-Str, that one needs to rule out the RNG, it's not the defenders Str, i'd worry about.
Survival > Power, is what I've learned from MMO's, and I haven't found anything saying this were wrong until now.
What would that be? (Being serious here) .I may give this OCC thing a chance, as it really sounds absurd but terrific.
To get me away from HoF play, is really tough though, as it is still the way of the most fun that I know of. "Our greatest desire is to leave a legacy" , are the words of a DJ that James Zabiela featured. There are words, that just make me think, and as I want to keep thinking, there is nothing I can do against them, but maybe join Jakkuza, but I won't do that.
Regarding Guerrilla 3, I think you underestimate that promotion. It's not only about attack, but it's also about survival. As I learned, GGs have a higher chance of dying then normal units, but even if this weren't true, 95% chance of survival means, that the unit will lose a fight, after having fought 20 fights. Tactics + Guerilla 3 give you 80% withdrawl chance as I know, because they stack, and this means, that your 95% fight will have a 99% chance. Regarding how many fights your units have to survive, this is a huge difference, as it means losing 1 of 100 fights, instead of 1 of 20.
I support you on the fact, that Drill is more important, also that combat is more important, yes, even Woodsman, but Pinch, never. Pinch substracks power from your defender. Your attackers have such a high base-Str, that one needs to rule out the RNG, it's not the defenders Str, i'd worry about.
Survival > Power, is what I've learned from MMO's, and I haven't found anything saying this were wrong until now.
My usual religion tactic?
Eh? I thought super-shrine huge maps with super tech broker is your favorites? As I remember from you writeup that only 1 time you didn't use it is the first time you oracle currency as WastinTime mentioned.
Oh sure, design a fun map and you got a tough shadow-man
.Woa, I don't know that Pinch subtract defender, nice one. In that case, Pinch is certainly not needed.
95% become 99%, that makes a lot of sense. I'm convinced, thanks a lot for the tip as I often wonder about promotion line.
Eh, what is MMO??
Seraiel
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Yes, that's my tactic, but I've read the whole thread, and also read the discussion from your last thread, about religion spread not being possible, in an all-war game. Also, I don't see, how a super-tech-broker fits in with an Espionage Economy.
Regarding the promotion line: Strong units against weak defenders, means the "special" promotions (Shock, Formation, Cover, whatever) are not as strong as the Combat promotions, because all of them, get substracted from the defender. A typical example, is Praetorian against Archer, where Combat 1 adds +0.8 str, while City-Raider substracts 0.6 str from the Archer. Another common example is Cuirrassiers against Pikes, so basically, when the attacker has more then twice the base-str, the combat-line is better.
Drill is very important in your games, as your forces have little time to heal, and Drill is the reason behind them taking no dmg at all sometimes.
Also, I wonder why you never improved the Forrests, and even more, while you're still not building Forts. I think, that you didn't recognize, that a Fort gives you its defense "on plus" of the Forrest. In addition, troops in your own forts, should get the city-garrison bonus.
S.
P.S.: MMO refers to massive multiplayer online game. In general, games like World of Warcraft, where people hunt and fight together.
Regarding the promotion line: Strong units against weak defenders, means the "special" promotions (Shock, Formation, Cover, whatever) are not as strong as the Combat promotions, because all of them, get substracted from the defender. A typical example, is Praetorian against Archer, where Combat 1 adds +0.8 str, while City-Raider substracts 0.6 str from the Archer. Another common example is Cuirrassiers against Pikes, so basically, when the attacker has more then twice the base-str, the combat-line is better.
Drill is very important in your games, as your forces have little time to heal, and Drill is the reason behind them taking no dmg at all sometimes.
Also, I wonder why you never improved the Forrests, and even more, while you're still not building Forts. I think, that you didn't recognize, that a Fort gives you its defense "on plus" of the Forrest. In addition, troops in your own forts, should get the city-garrison bonus.
S.
P.S.: MMO refers to massive multiplayer online game. In general, games like World of Warcraft, where people hunt and fight together.
I mean you do EE for a normal game with some really bad start. Always war require total another strategy, from culture discount to bait city.
The best thing about EE is being free from start condition. Stone start is best but none-stone is fine if we delay the 1st settler. Just my idea, though.
Some nice numbers to remember
Ah, I do know that fort "plus" the defense on the tile, I did build fort in all my choke point OCC game. But with open land, there simply no time to build a fort. My cap got attacked all the time, not even count roaming units. 1 fort is 30 turns, a really long time even with 3 workers, maybe 10 worker but I got quite little gold.
One more important reason that if I bring troops out of city, AIs will attack city instead of my fort. That's the ugly side of open land Always war.
Only unit which capable attack AI before they got to city in this case is GG rifle/infantry. But even so, there is 3 routes to got to my capital so, again, not possible to hold them off. Even in case that only 1 routes, my GG is limited in numbers while AIs could build a massive stack.
There is 1 case that AIs will attack the fort instead going for capital, is when the fort is built outside BFC. But that's too risky to try as in case something happen back home, my GG can not go back in time.
Open land is truly brutal
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