Deity of Random - Try 1

[CellKu]

@ Flo7 are you sure that we could get all the city spots south of Tokyo? It seems as if these spots can be reached by the other civs. Well, we will see. I would still encourage you to speed up our settlements in that area.

@Rusten: IIRC, if we take the wine tile we will sacrifice one or two plains tiles and we wouldn't be able to mine the hill (as we would settle on it). Actually, it is not really a big loss (perhaps except for the mine...).

So, for the next turnset we plan:
Cities:
Kyoto: Stick to building the MoM
(even though I am a bit hesitant with building that wonder at this point in time, why not if the wonders are built so late in that game. However, in this case I think we should follow Rusten's suggestion to only pre-chop and wait with the final chop until we can be sure that we get it.)

Osaka: Switch to settler (to settle the eastern island, get more money and expand more quickly), then finish the missionary. The boat will return very timely after bringing the settler to the eastern island to take the missionary.

Tokyo: Build galley -> settler -> worker (shouldn't we insert some units? Probably triremes for sea defense. If Charlemagne targets us, we are toast. With triremes we would be able to fend him off at least initially so that we would have some time to switch to unit production.)

Civics: Switch to Bureaucracy + Pacifism asap

Miscellaneous:
- Explore more to get more city spots.


Anything else?

 

[Flo7]

I guess everything is discussed and decided (not many decision to make, if compared to the previous turnset). Perhaps I manage to play and post tonight.

Regarding city location:
I will settle on the Hill, as Cellku proposed that way we can found 2 ok cities on that island.

Kyoto:
I also plan to grow Kyoto (have to build farms) while generating the gpp and building the MoM, that way we have a strong production center for the TM.

Anything else I have to consider?

 

[Rusten]

After looking at the save settling on the plains hill is a given. We get an extra city center hammer and also another plains hill from our starting island.

Beware of a barb galley to the SE of Osaka, it put an end to my earlier exploring there. I've marked it on the map.

 

[Flo7]

Yep, saw the mark on the map.

 

[CellKu]

I also think that we have decided on everything. So, good luck, Flo7!

 

[Flo7]

Played my turn until 600 AD/turn 140.
Took me longer than expected due to some technical problems with my laptop

Good news:
We got the MoM and Lib
Could trade the world map to all civs for a total of about 400 gold and the World map of SB. Run the slider from then on at 100%.
Sold resoruces we did not need (incense, gems, crabs ) for a total of 25 gold / turn, including existing deals.

Bad news:
Tech trades were not so good. For the most time I had only paper on the AIs (Charles demanded CS as tribute and got it) which I did not want to trade away. Lately Han approached me and asked for paper for music and pericles for paper for drama and 140 gold. I did both trades since they do not count against WFYABTA. And at that time I was 3 turn from Lib.

barbarians are causing some troubles.
Kyoto:
Destroyed the fishing boat (crabs) of Kyoto had to whip a trireme in Osaka to stop the galley from getting to our 2nd seafood. currenty I am building an wb in osaka to replace the old one. Currently building a fort south of Osaka. If that had existed our existing trireme could have passed and we did not have to whip a second. And I plan to build some more wbs in Osaka to give the new cities an easier start. The WBS safe 6 turns or so by passing through the canal.

Tokyo:
Warrior approach city. Had no ressources to upgrade/build a better unit, neither archery. So I build a second warrior.

Pericles is really research strong. In the beginning of my turnset I met that galleon...

And at the end he already has chemistry.

There are some nice trades out there...

Note:
I marked the spots where we should imo place a city.

There is a galley with a settler and a worker south of tokyo which still can move that turn. I would settle directly south on the desert tile, with the two sea food in the small city radius.

A vulcanic eruption (random event) destroyed a mine in Kyoto. We should rebuild it.

I begun the Taj Mahal in Kyoto, still both forrest there to chop (I messed up the timing ). The only guy with Nat. is Charles so far and he hasnt marble. I think we have a chance of getting it (12 turn GA are nice )

We should focus on expansion now, we have two galleys and two settler pumps ready

View attachment SG-Deity AD-0600.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[Rusten]

Had a quick peak at the save, will give some more input later. We seem to be in good shape and have some targets for later (clearly avoiding Pericles), nicely played.

- Taj Mahal is sweet with marble and the MoM, definitely go for it.

- After machinery we should really start making some samurai for power and to upgrade later.

- Kyoto is in bureaucracy but is not working the plains incense. That's such a killer tile, it's silly to pass it up. Tokyo is working a cottage/desert mine instead of the wheat while making a settler, but that's not as important as using the incense (9 instant in addition to food and production).

 

[CellKu]

Overall situation looks nice. We don't have any army however...

Some questions:
1,) There is a galley with a worker close to the eastern islands. Is he on the way back from the eastern island (I assume so, since the mine on the iron has been built).

2.) The galley south of Tokyo is heading to the desert spot with the fish and the crab, right? I would go for that spot first.

3.) Rusten, if I understood you correctly, your suggestion is to research machinery next. Right?

4.) Any suggestions for what we tech then? Feudalism?

5.) How far would you go with trading? For example: Charles would give us machinery for drama+paper. If we research 1 turn into feudalism, maybe SB will give it to us for paper (and perhaps some money)?

6.) How and where do we squeeze in the production of the Samurais? Shouldn't we have barracks first, or is the initial promotion (Toku) sufficient in your eyes?


Some ideas on how to proceed:

1.) In Kyoto we could switch the scientist to working the incense (I don't think we should sacrifice any hammers until the TM is completed).

2.) When the two workers have finished the fortress, we should chop the two remaining forests for Kyoto's TM. One worker should then build mines for Osaka and Kyoto (Kyoto grows less quickly so I would go for Osaka first). For the other see below at 3.)

3.) Osaka: after finishing the settler, I think we should produce at least two missionaries, before building another settler. Since SB is so close on the other side, I suggest we go for the horse/clam spot south of Nara, first. One worker should accompany that settler.

4.) We could try to renegotiate our trades with Zara and Charles. They have a bit more cash flow right now, so perhaps they will pay more for our resources.

 

[Rusten]

3.) Rusten, if I understood you correctly, your suggestion is to research machinery next. Right?

It's definitely a priority whether we decide to trade for it (my preference) or self-research it. Machinery is needed for both the rifling and military science/ships path. It's also necessary for Samurai, which I think we should start getting some of to increase our power and because we have that GM waiting.

If we postpone Rifling we won't need Feudalism, Guilds and Banking yet--we can lightbulb Printing Press once and then 2x Chemistry if we want. This would allow for very speedy grenadier production. Even if we choose a fast beeline to military science it doesn't mean we have to skip rifling, we can just start producing grenadiers and ships while finishing up Rifling and do some quick drafting to put the button on our attack.

6.) How and where do we squeeze in the production of the Samurais? Shouldn't we have barracks first, or is the initial promotion (Toku) sufficient in your eyes?

I think we're upgrading them, but without extra promotions that would be pointless as even drafted units start with the Toku traits. Definitely add a barracks first, it's very cheap when aggressive (it also adds power). Don't be afraid to use the whip--slavery is the best source of production pre-industrial times. We have a high happy cap and plenty of food which adds even more weight to this.

 

[Flo7]

Wrote my answers in your post...
What you probably noticed yourself already. After LIb I research Monotheism to open up the Theology trade possibilites.

@ Cellku, please not that the current turn is not finished, you can still move some units. I did not finish the turn to leave 2) for discussion.

Overall situation looks nice. We don't have any army however...

Some questions:
1,) There is a galley with a worker close to the eastern islands. Is he on the way back from the eastern island (I assume so, since the mine on the iron has been built).
It is on its way back. Thought about shipping the worker to fantasy island.

2.) The galley south of Tokyo is heading to the desert spot with the fish and the crab, right? I would go for that spot first.
That was also my intention, two food resources in the inital cross

3.) Rusten, if I understood you correctly, your suggestion is to research machinery next. Right?
We can also trade it for paper and drama with Charles

4.) Any suggestions for what we tech then? Feudalism?
after trading machinery I thought about going for printing press

5.) How far would you go with trading? For example: Charles would give us machinery for drama+paper. If we research 1 turn into feudalism, maybe SB will give it to us for paper (and perhaps some money)?
I would not research into feudalism/machinery but do the trade 2 for 1. I like the theory of it but it never works out in my games as intended
General about trading:
I was offered several deals which I accepted e.g. drama and music. But I declined a machinery for paper and 295 gold deal from SB, although it would not count agains WFYABTA. Because of the hefty gold share of the deals. Would you do the same ?

6.) How and where do we squeeze in the production of the Samurais? Shouldn't we have barracks first, or is the initial promotion (Toku) sufficient in your eyes?
Barracks is a must, I would say, perhaps we can get the second promotion by killing some barbs. If we are lucky and a barb towns spawns we can attack it unless one of our samurai got the 9(10?) xp for HE.
Some ideas on how to proceed:

1.) In Kyoto we could switch the scientist to working the incense (I don't think we should sacrifice any hammers until the TM is completed).
So far I did not work the Incense since commerce was no priority. Had to grow the city while generating gpp and finishing a wonder. For that the tile is no fit. I checked: if we exchange the grassland tile for incense we lose 5 hammers (40 -> 35) thats a lot when building a wonder.
But now we can exchange the scientist for the incense, since GS are no longer a priority

2.) When the two workers have finished the fortress, we should chop the two remaining forests for Kyoto's TM. One worker should then build mines for Osaka and Kyoto (Kyoto grows less quickly so I would go for Osaka first). For the other see below at 3.)
On the other hand we could use another plain hill main immediately for accelerating the TM in Kyoto IIRC

3.) Osaka: after finishing the settler, I think we should produce at least two missionaries, before building another settler. Since SB is so close on the other side, I suggest we go for the horse/clam spot south of Nara, first. One worker should accompany that settler.
Why would you need the missionaries now? I guess we need them shortly before we swith into Theocracy (at the end of the golden age?)

4.) We could try to renegotiate our trades with Zara and Charles. They have a bit more cash flow right now, so perhaps they will pay more for our resources.
cash flow... are you studying business administration?
Good idea, thought about that too

 

[Flo7]

If we postpone Rifling we won't need Feudalism, Guilds and Banking yet--we can lightbulb Printing Press once and then 2x Chemistry if we want. This would allow for very speedy grenadier production. Even if we choose a fast beeline to military science it doesn't mean we have to skip rifling, we can just start producing grenadiers and ships while finishing up Rifling and do some quick drafting to put the button on our attack.

I like the idea of beelining grens. One of the main reasons for riflemen is the huge stacks of mounted units the AI normally has, there riflemen are the perfect counter. But not all the AIs have horses . Charles is imo a perfect target for a gren assault (althoug he has horses I think).
He is weak in the score rating, really close to us all his cities are costal and he has only a limited no. of cities. With an army and navy we could take him out in a couple of turns. IIRC his land is even divided by an unpassable mountain (if we are lucky his SoD is on the other side)
We can find out about the strength of Charles army and the location of his SoD by shiping a spy to Han's land and going south.

And while we battle down charles we can beeline rifles and go for a bigger fish

 

[CellKu]

Summary for the next round:

Techs: trade for machinery (with Charles). Then research printing press (a potential GS will be due in 10 turns if we work the incense instead of a scientist).
Target is: to get grenadiers online as quickly as possible, so we beeline towards that end.

Cities:
Kyoto: Switch from scientist to working the incense.
Osaka: settlers and workers (squeeze in a spy and maybe barracks).
Fantasy island cities: granaries, WB, Barracks.

Units:
Eastern island galley with the worker will head towards fantasy island.
Tokyo galley will head to the desert spot.
Kyoto/Osaka workers: first built mine (Kyoto will then work the mine (even if we starve it every now and then, but not until pop reduction), then chop the forests. Afterwards build another mine for Osaka.
One of the triremes should sail to Tokyo. In case Charles wants to attack us, we would have a chance to kill his galley (if he still comes with a galley...). Since we have the canal (fortress) one trireme seems to be enough for defending the northern and southern sea of our capital island.

Other Civs: renegotiate some trades.

Milestone will be: when the TM is up.

 

[Flo7]

About the target
I think we shuild also build a spy to get some info about Charles army and land.

Charles is an obvious target to attack with grens, but if he has masses of knights he will smash our grens.
If we find out he has, then we should either choose another one to attack or wait for rifles.
We also could find out about his SoDs both army and navy. Sometimes the AI has most of its ships in one city. If we can take that one first we dont have to fear a naval counterattack.

I think that info is pretty vital before beelining for either grens or rifles.

Fantasy Island cities need still granaries and a WB, thereafter I would suggest barracks for later drafting and the power rating.

 

[Rusten]

We have access to ivory though, so if we choose to make some war elephants as stack protectors knights won't be an issue. They don't get defensive bonuses so our grenadiers will easily take them down in cities.

 

[CellKu]

Okay, updated the summary. Thanks for your input. So, if you don't have any more suggestions I will play the next round.

 

[CellKu]

860 AD: We got the TM! (for only one forest chop)

During this round:
Diplomacy with other civs:
- Zara demanded Edu. I gave in (too afraid because of our non-existing army)
- Pericles canceled his horses-deal with us. We renegotiated and could keep an ivory-horse deal (but no spices anymore).

- Did the suggested tech trade with Charles (got machinery and some money).
- Did another tech trade with Han: Got Feudalism and Construction.
- Didn't want to trade with Charles further. If he will be our next target I don't want him to get Gunpowder too quickly. However, with Feudalism in I saw that he has Guilds already... I would suggest to trade for engineering.
- Renegotiated our trades with Zara and Charles in total we now get 5 gold more, IIRC.

Techs: Researched PP. Now Gunpowder to get Chemistry next (we should trade for engineering).

GP: Got a Great Artist. Left him untouched in Kyoto.

Settled massively. I might have overdone it a little bit... Hope you are not too annoyed, but since many civs have Astro already I thought we had to rush. The first shock came when I went for Izumo. I just so got it. Pericles was already closing in on that spot with a Galleon and settlers.

Well, he has now settled in the desert! Well, maybe he wanted to prove something to us.

Han has also Galleons already, so closing borders (for which I was too late anyhow because within one turn he showed up on our borders and sailed almost the whole way through the sea of Tokyo. He is now one his way south. It seems as if he wants to settle our marked spot south of Nagoya (I think we have the best spots already settled, but it is too unfortunate that we cannot claim the whole islands). One more settler is produced in Tokyo, but I think that should be the last one for a while that we build there.

Got barracks in several cities. A spy is on his way towards Tokyo (and then further to Charles). I think we have enough workers on fantasy island now (shipped the first worker with the settler to found Izumo, so only the new built worker has joined our work-forces on fantasy island). Every city that finished production this turn and has barracks already is set on producing Samurai. I am not sure if it should stay this way but wanted to clarify where we can go for them. We should discuss what we do there.

The WB in Osaka is meant for Izumo which is rather poor in growth right now.

A settler is alreay standing by on the small island south of Kyoto. I haven't settled there, since maintenance was already quite high and this spot is now save.

The trireme south of Tokyo was heading south for getting a barb galley that turned up there last turn. Apparently, however, Han has dealt with it or it disappeared otherwise.

I whipped only very cautiously in Tokyo, Osaka and Nara, IIRC.

We should discuss on how to improve the tiles of fantasy island. For the eastern city the only options for now that I saw were cottages. In the western city we could also go for farms. Since I am tempted to make that city our new capital, I thought building cottages might be better, so I build one already - but am open for other ideas. Do not build too many cottages before we can decide on that matter I build then a mine there.

Our empire as of 860 AD:

I hope I didn't forget anything.

 

[Rusten]

Oh snap, you've already played!

I totally missed this post for some strange reason (I actually checked in to ask what the delay was about ), sorry for not responding earlier. What's the plan, do we wait for Snaaty or continue by ourselves? Will take a look at the save in the morning.

 

[CellKu]

Well, I was wondering because there was no feedback. So, I assumed that you wanted to wait until Snaaty is back. Otherwise, I would suggest we continue and then hand it over to Snaaty as soon as he is back.

An addition to my previous post (just remembered that):
In the beginning of my turn I closed borders with SB when he approached with a galley and I hadn't been able to settle any of our selected spots. I think we should reopen borders with all civs that we have closed borders with to get our trade routes back.

 

[Flo7]

Had no chance to look at the save in detail either, sorry. I was loaded with work the last days...

Just some quick thoughts (I hope I can contribute some more thoughts tonight.)

- What to do with the golden age? Focus on GS generation?

- Do we need PP for grens do we still beeline towards grens or rather riflemen ?

- We have to think about how to stop Pericles

 

[Rusten]

Thoughts;

- No wonder we got a GA in our capital seeing all the artist pollution. It's not running any scientists, so it was a little expected. Maybe hire 2 scientists instead of working the hills? Dunno. Not getting a GS makes a grenadier approach less good as we now can't lightbulb chemistry 2 times. Still, do we want to risk going to war with only Galleons and lack Frigates/SoL? Chemistry/MS is needed not only for grenadiers, but for ships as well.

- When/if we attack someone like Charlemagne we will have trouble with city maintenance. We really need to get SP on a map like this. Basically we're lacking GSs, we have a lot of things that could be lightbulbed (chemistry - Sci. Method [astronomy])

- Don't think I'd bother changing the capital. Kyoto is better located, has better production and for now more commerce than fantasy island. Kyoto has the incense and seafood which alone is a lot of commerce, but also the matured cottage. Further, our trade routes there are also boosted by bureaucracy. It currently has 55 before the 50% bonus which is not bad at all.

- Do we need PP for grens

We do if we want to lightbulb chemistry -- it's preferred by the GS.

- What to do with the golden age? Focus on GS generation?

Think that might be a good idea. We're really lacking GSs.