Delayed Bronze Working Start

[vranasm]

10 cubed is 1000. >.>

that's why there is multiplier before...moving the whole number of games to 1000000+

as non speaker I kind of don't know the english math words...otherwise i would say something like move it by 3 digit places

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Are you suggesting everyone should play a 100-1000 games for proof just to get enough iterations? (Given the limited life-time and all, I think it's easier to turn off events. )

No doubt it's easier but when Slavery is the issue kind of misses the point!

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

that's why there is multiplier before...moving the whole number of games to 1000000+

as non speaker I kind of don't know the english math words...otherwise i would say something like move it by 3 digit places

Oop I didn't see that. But yes it would take 1 million games for events to even out.

 

[krikav]

But in all fairness, over many iterations random events are normalized. So If you try this test 100 times you would get a more true comparison.

For any other comparison game I'd lean towards agreeing with you, but when Slavery is the issue, I don't think you can get a true comparison without events.

I'm sure that over time, the scores in yatzee are normalized too.
Thats besides the point.
I want all my games to have as little RNG as possible, I scream in frustration every time I pop silver/gold/gems as well.
I'm much more of a chess person than a yatzee person.

 

[rah]

Personal preference which I can respect.
I like a little more random so every game isn't the same. Not too much.
Real life is closer to yatzee then chess.
Neither necessarily right or wrong, just personal preference.
I'm glad the game can accommodate both.

 

[Brennus.Quigley]

I am deeply hurt by your superior attitude, and your rude suggestion that I alter the gameplay to compare scores.

Haha. Really?!

I remove huts/events since i LOVE this game

Well, you clearly don't LOVE BTS in its default settings!

Now, if it was your intent to put forward a case for delaying slavery until liberalism, wouldn't it be NICE for you to MENTION this in the long so called "strategy" guide you wrote?

Now, that is a good suggestion. In fact, I will add to the strategy article that slavery is less attractive with events on. Thanks.

The way that barb defense is usually handled by the pros is to tech BW or AH, look for copper / horses within the capitals BFC or for your second city. Dont have either? Restart map.

Exactly. Constant gambling and re-rolling is one way to play. Taking an assured approach and focusing on your percentage of victories might be the less preferred approach, but it is the one I enjoy. Hall of Fames and "record scores" encourage the former. "Real life" and "responsible leadership" encourage the latter.

As I see it, skipping Bronze unlocks a hardcore Liberalism beeline (at the very least, there's no need to wait for the AIs getting Compass/bulbing Compass oneself // saves 1 great person). However, to really benefit from it, one needs some perfect timing: it ends with a timing attack and starts with getting the right great persons at the right moment (at least 2 G scientists for Edu and Lib). May be troublesome, especially since an Academy could be useful as well and one could get some non-scientist GPs (= more expensive scientists).

I would think that more balance is better but I regularly undervalue beelines. Rephrased: while bulbing into Liberalism is good, trying to do so puts some strain on the Empire, which is bad.
I'll try it again, though, maybe with some refining and better use for our few mines (externalizing workboats production is a start)...

I appreciate all your thoughts here. Yes, you can get to Liberalism faster without the academy, but that element is missing from your empire. Your actual Lib opportunities are improved with the academy helping you to self-tech some valuable paths. I certainly want this strategy to be part of a winning strategy for the right maps, not some Liberalism bulb date competition.

Did you read Vicawoo's article about early Caste System for EXP leaders?

I will. Thanks for the suggestion.

I had to laugh when I read this. Every single time I mention in a post that I like huts and events I am deluged with comments that I'm not serious competitor since it adds a random element to the game. I really do understand their point when they're comparing games. For me there already is randomness in the game so I don't see it as big of an issue but I've conceded the point before and will again... And you have to admit that turning them off is altering game play.

...

...I understand it's not perfect but it is part of the game UNLESS you alter the game by turning them off.

...

Yes, if any test should have events, this one is the one.
And I agree that with no events, slavery is a no-brainer...

...

But in all fairness, over many iterations random events are normalized. So If you try this test 100 times you would get a more true comparison.

I agree with everything rah has said. Couldn't have said it better myself.

...

So, anyway, so far I think I've shown that the delayed Bronze Working Liberalism bulb is a viable strategy here. I was in such a dominant position, I could have won the game anyway I wanted. I think cseanny's game shows that a slavery approach is also very possible on this map and indeed would have put him in a position for a quicker Cuirassier rush, military type victory. Without iron and horses in the area (i.e. a different map), however, his position would have been more affected than mine (I assume he would agree with this, and of course he would adjust his approach and play the map differently—trebs I think—he is admittedly a better player than I am.) Thanks to those who have actually played and posted some (even partial) results: Cseanny, BornInCantaloup, Cusanus, and, of course, Zx Zero Zx for his "slavery revolt/quitting" contribution which was also very insightful.

 

[krikav]

Haha. Really?!
Well, you clearly don't LOVE BTS in its default settings!

Thanks to those who have actually played and posted some (even partial) results: Cseanny, BornInCantaloup, Cusanus, and, of course, Zx Zero Zx for his "slavery revolt/quitting" contribution which was also very insightful.

I don't find it amusing to be laughed at.
I don't like having my love for the game questioned because I choose to play with other settings that you do.
I don't like you ridiculing Zx Zero Zx.

How about stop harassing people?

 

[Brennus.Quigley]

I don't find it amusing to be laughed at.

You're getting quite worked up at me posting, and then defending the posting of, a huts/events game.

I don't like having my love for the game questioned because I choose to play with other settings that you do.

I said you don't love the default settings, which you don't apparently. I'm sure you love BTS with your custom settings, though.

I don't like you ridiculing Zx Zero Zx.

I'm not ridiculing him. His frustration with slave revolts was insightful and helped bring that element into the discussion.

How about stop harassing people?

Can I laugh again?

 

[bhavv]

I don't find it amusing to be laughed at.
I don't like having my love for the game questioned because I choose to play with other settings that you do.
I don't like you ridiculing Zx Zero Zx.

How about stop harassing people?

After reading port #46 from you, Im beginning to find you incredibly ironic. You want him to stop harassing you, yet you kicked it off by insulting him for using default game settings. If you have no interest in playing this game because of its settings, then why do you even bother posting in the thread?

 

[rah]

I think loving the game is a prerequisite for posting on an uber geek web site like this. Let's be real.
(unless you're a hater with nothing better to do with your life)

 

[pigswill]

Its interesting that even when the thread goes completely off topic (events v non-events rather than delayed BW) the level of acrimony stays the same

 

[rah]

I really don't think slave revolts is OT when discussing delayed BW. But yeah, it did heat up quite quickly.

 

[yuchai]

I don't buy in to the delayed bronze working strategy myself, but would also have to agree that part of what makes slavery so powerful is because the standard here is that everyone plays with no events.

The revolt event is clearly built in to try to make slavery less desirable. It's a shame that events themselves are so broken that nobody uses them, but this doesn't change the fact that playing with no events is a huge boost to slavery.

 

[rah]

I think you underestimate how many people actually plays with them on.
If NOBODY did, there wouldn't be heated discussions.

 

[shakabrade]

Spoiler :

Played sloppy and didn't have too much luck. Actually I did get opportunity to get free great artist but I declined so my game could be more comparable. It took forever for AIs to research Alphabet and that meant delayed Philo bulb and civics switch. Used GE to hurry TGL. Barb city spawned and ruined my 2 city spots.

Skipping BW did save some turns, especially on Immortal, but I don't think this strategy is good for deity since on deity AI researches faster and all techs I had to wait for here can easily be traded for on deity.

One thing is particularly bothering me with this strategy: Without knowing strategic resources available, you can't make plans for the future, thus you can't know will you be able to profit from Libbing at all.

But I can say this Brennus' strategy wasn't that bad. It'd do even better on great plains. On this map, due to so many tiles without production, not using slavery was hampering. Cities didn't have infra.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Ha! Haha! Now Shakabrade holds the record for this map!
I agree that "what to do with Lib" is a disturbing question but... it often is in PTGs (Pure Techer Games).

Now, come on, a bit less speculation about the impact of huts/events and a bit more playtesting/reporting! If you get HBR from huts you can just tell you got it and how it was sooo unbalanced, right?
Can't leave that 425AD Lib date uncontested... or can you?


ps: @Shakabrade:
Very funny last picture... Dotmap is a killer.

 

[Revent]

General outline on my play:
City 1: Scout->Worker->Warrior (until size 3)->Settler->Worker->Settler->Stonehenge for fail gold ->The Oracle (timed to finish the same turn I finished researching Code of Laws)
City 2: Stonehenge for fail gold->Workboat to explore
City 3->Monument

Huts: Popped a scout, 44 gold, fishing and a map and one ***** hut healed my red scout who died anyway.

Tech Path: (Pop fishing)->Agri->AH->TW->Pottery->Myst->Mediation->Priesthood->Writing->CoL->Philosophy.

Edit:Have to say, very sloppy play by myself! I haven't even opened borders with one of the AI yet!

Edit Again: None of the AI have Alpha yet either!

 

[shakabrade]

Ha! Haha! Now Shakabrade holds the record for this map!
I agree that "what to do with Lib" is a disturbing question but... it often is in PTGs (Pure Techer Games).

Now, come on, a bit less speculation about the impact of huts/events and a bit more playtesting/reporting! If you get HBR from huts you can just tell you got it and how it was sooo unbalanced, right?
Can't leave that 425AD Lib date uncontested... or can you?


ps: @Shakabrade:
Very funny last picture... Dotmap is a killer.

Me likes dotmaps!!!


Fun fact: did you know I double bulbed Liberalism just to get a turn...

Waiting for Alphabet literally took 8-10 turns of my date. Immortal AIs are so boring.


Basically, I can see you are not happy with my mini report. Well, I just felt strange. Without whipping/chopping/calculating OF this game was more or less pushing that round button when it goes red.

I can say I started by Agriculture and AH, settled horses first for barb protection, built another settler and settled flood plains plains and then built Mids. In the meantime barb city appeared just before my fogbusting warrior got there. I switched to Representation, got my GE, hurried TGL, went for Music and then accidentally, while I was checking tech tree options, switched to something else 2 turns from Music. When I remembered I was researching Music, someone else got GA. Bah. And then end turn, end turn, GAge, starve cities, end turn, end turn, capture barb city, end turn, promote chariot to sentry, discover there is hannibal visible from the shore, trade for Alphabet and Calendar, end turn end turn Lib. Is this any better?

I can tell I felt frustrated by my inability to whip that awesome FP city. It didn't even have Library until very very late. I also didn't know if I had any metals. It can be important for someone trying to Lib MT...

If you knew you are without metals, you'd already go for Engineering since if you don't do anything early enough, game could go wild on you.

I might give this map a second try, now with slavery. Then will I compare dates and also mention things like luck/unluck and try to estimate how much of an impact on date came from huts/random events and how much from avoiding BW.

@Revent

Revent, what is the use of Munich? Especially as a third city when you still have horses to settle. I don't think commerce from furs is worth it. Or also settled there because of ability to produce workboat?

 

[Revent]

Revent, what is the use of Munich? Especially as a third city when you still have horses to settle. I don't think commerce from furs is worth it. Or also settled there because of ability to produce workboat?

It was for the furs which resulted in a faster CoL. and so that the fishy cities can start up faster cos of two hills
Anyway, I decided to continue to see how it goes and I was a bit annoyed cos I accidentally built Angkor Wat and Chicen Itza
so I'm replaying from this point a bit more properly.

 

[shakabrade]

It was for the furs which resulted in a faster CoL. and so that the fishy cities can start up faster cos of two hills
Anyway, I decided to continue to see how it goes and I was a bit annoyed cos I accidentally built Angkor Wat and Chicen Itza
so I'm replaying from this point a bit more properly.

Although I still think it'd be better you settled those horses (for safety issues too) and sent your WBs from there, your reasoning behind Munich is very intelligent.
Try exploring a bit more along the coast, especially your own land so you don't miss some opportunities.