Dept. of Turnplay too

[Sir Bugsy]

Bede has an interesting idea there. Let's say we don't found the city quite yet. Or we found the city as bait. I don't really like that idea, but it would surely keep TNT out of position a lot longer. Then we use our greater speed to strike TNT again when they are out of position.

OK, let me explain in greater depth so everyone is on board with this. TNT is probably going to move that stack onto the hill next turn. We will gather up our units two tiles away and tremble in fear just out of reach of those mean and nasty immortals.

Then the following turn TNT moves down off the hill onto the road. Now we use our greater speed and race across the roadless lands into their backyard. If we run into some pikes guarding those cities we start pillaging TNT back to the stone age. IF we run into some unguarded cities, well we know what happens there.

Advantages: TNT's main strike force is out of position to defend their core, unless they want to attack with pikes. We use our speed to stay just out of reach of TNT's main force until we can get some rock throwers across.

Disadvantages - It delays settling the east for a few turns until we have a stronger defense.

 

[scoutsout]

It's going to take at least rock slingers to put a dent in that stack, just way too many pikes. Can we dance around them and maybe pull somebody out of position?

That's definitely an option. One of the thoughts I had was this: If they consolidate their stack on the tile 1NW of the horses, I could put all of our Gallics on the forest tile S of the horses. This might buy us the precious time needed to get some more troops in the pipeline. It might also put us in position to hurt another city... but I don't want to start going after dug in cities without a decent combined arms stack.

This is going to be a great warmup for dealing with Hoplites, btw....

Looking at the picture of the strike force we need at least a fortified pike and a treb (preferably two) to make mincemeat of it.

I'd prefer a few more Trebs than that... but we've got a Pike and a Treb on Galleys... and they could be brought to bear before TNT could be in position to hurt us.

Strategically speaking, I think planning on a long term use of TNT's lands is the way to go.

The more I think about it, the more I think it makes sense to grab as much land as possible over there. Pack in a bunch of specialist farms, and swap 'em between taxmen and scientists as needed....

...but we've got a tough row to hoe over the next 3-5 turns. Even a little PRNG cruelty could really hurt us at this juncture. We've already been bitten pretty hard when they attacked our gallics with 3 Immortals and not a single Gallic retreated.

 

[Bede]

IF we run into some unguarded cities, well we know what happens there.

Advantages: TNT's main strike force is out of position to defend their core, unless they want to attack with pikes. We use our speed to stay just out of reach of TNT's main force until we can get some rock throwers across.

Disadvantages - It delays settling the east for a few turns until we have a stronger defense.

Dang it, Bugs you're reading my mind again. To wit, I deleted a phrase that ran "is it possible there are undefended cities in the backlines"

But even if the desired outcome (undefended cities) doesn't happen we will use our advantage, speed, to spread them around and possibly crate an opening.

Delaying the settlemetn won't really cost us anything at this point and will ensure we land in greater force when we do.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Exactly, we can gather up a secondary force in the east while we create terror, panic, hate and discontent in TNT's core.

Edit - The more we pillage the less TNT's immortals can catch up with us.

 

[scoutsout]

Let me see speculate on how TNT might play it, and see if I can come up with some tactical options.

1. TNT consolidates all available forces on the tile NW of the horses. This is probably how I'd play it.
2. TNT leaves the pike on the hill, and does something stupid with the pike SE of the main stack.

If they go with option 1, we could have our hands full. I would probably move the elite off the northwestern-most position, and pull him back a bit... and move the veteran off the tile NE of the horses. I would basically play it expecting them to put the stack on the road next turn...

...at that point I would be forced to skirmish. If they make this maneuver with fewer than 4 pikemen, I will shred them. I don't think I've got enough over there to hack my way through 4 pikes and 5 Immortals... but if they only bring a couple of pikes we will have enough to deal with the stack. The key is to let them step on the road, but not use the road.

Another thing we could do is pull everything northward, and establish a base of operations on one of the 2 proposed sites NE of the Iron hill. This would buy us the time needed to get some trebuchets over there... but the lack of roads would probably negate our speed. We would also give up control of the existing roads in neutral territory. We would probably need to pull our settler away from the Ivory if we went this route.

Another option I see is to move all of the gallics to the Forest 1S of the horses. This might accomplish Bugsy's tactic of drawing them out of positon.

These are just some of the thoughts I'm having...

 

[Sir Bugsy]

OK, since I'm a visual guy, here goes:

The blue line is Scout's TNT option 1
The red line is Bugsy's TNT option 1.

I think Scout might be correct here. It appears TNT is advancing on a broader front instead of concentrating forces.

A broad advance leaves them open to losses.

In either case, blue or red, we will want to stay just out of striking range with our GS's. Once TNT commits their main force to our road, we can run around them into their backyard. We can take either, the red, blue or green tracks. I would prefer red or blue since that puts us in their core before they can counter.

 

[scoutsout]

@Bugs: The problem I see with the blue axis of advance is that it puts our Gallics in range of their immortals. Let me outline a couple of alternatives.

First, turning the flank:



We use the roads and our speed to put our gallics in position to threaten their city in the fog. It's probablly defended... possibly heavily defended... and possibly in a position to get reinforcements. But the TNT stack is not in a position to help.

Another option I see is the tactical retreat...which might give us a strategic advantage.



I can have a settler on Blue Dot next turn, and plant a town there the turn after. The Gallics on the road west of the river can pillage and retreat to the forest. Other gallics can make it to the iron hill. The settler by the Ivory will need to be pulled onto a galley.

The yellow lines are the moves made next turn, blue lines are made the turn after.

This is the safer option. And by the time TNT closes with our town, I could have a couple of pikes and several trebuchets there to greet them. And if they don't come to us, we come to them when we're in a better position to take the fight to them.

 

[scoutsout]

Sorry for the double-post... somebody had suggested settling on a site 1SW of the Blue Dot. Here's the problem I see with that: A city on that site could be threatened by a pike/immortal stack on the iron hill...which would put us in the position of having to pry that stack off the hill from across a river. The Blue Dot site is slightly more defensible IMHO.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

I really don't like the second option at the moment. I imagine those immortals in that stack are all the offense TNT has. By staying mobile and using our speed, we can raise hell in their core. Plus it puts us on our heels.

I think you misinterpreted what I was advocating. We do not march across the unroaded lands until TNT places their stack on the road. That will be two turns from now and that stack will probably include the two additional pikes as you advocate. Now it will take two turns to get back across and by then there will not be any roads for them to use when they do get across.

 

[scoutsout]

@Bugs: I think I see what you mean... pull the "turn the flank" maneuver a turn later....interesting...

 

[Kickbooti]

Wow. Bugs and Scout are like Xenophon and Hanibal shooting the breeze. Maybe I will have to try southern BBQ.

I am working on keeping up (and have some obligaitons tonight and tomorrow that mean I won't be able to digest this until later). But...

Why wouldn't TNT's SoD go directly to the horses?

The stack would only be one pike short. Our two northernmost GS could bypass and pillage the core, but if they moved the pike off the hill and left the singleton pike in place, they could block that maneuver for a turn or two and have their Immortals closer to the bulk of our forces.

I can see a couple of disadvantages to that move, but I see it as plausable, which means that we should consider it before putting all our GS in the forest to the south.

Okay, I have to go. This may be stupid, but like I say, tomorrow is a big work day - other things on my mind...

 

[scoutsout]

Wow. Bugs and Scout are like Xenophon and Hanibal shooting the breeze. Maybe I will have to try southern BBQ.

Okay... I guess I'm Xenophon... and I highly recommend you start with Hickory and Pork for the barbeque...

Why wouldn't TNT's SoD go directly to the horses?

Because then their SoD would be shy one pike... unless...

Unless they've got a settler in the fog...and plan to try to resettle the horses...

 

[Daghdha]

Interesting conversation to say the least. I'm positive that TNT has thrown a major part of what offense they have which makes the "flank/sneak option" tempting. I'd prefer we keep the initiative and let that Stack of Mischief march into nothing.
ATM they have 1 connected Iron outside Grenadopolis. I suggest we take our whole stack, including the settler (by boat), and go invisible to E of G-polis. We raze it and settle on the Iron Hill. Upside with this is we whack one more core city, deny them the fuel for Immos and plant in striking distance from another core city (Carpetbomb III). Downside that the whole TNT strike force is undented and will control the east front where we want to settle.
In the meantime I want us to intensify diplo with Nuts to see if we can diverge the no-namers somewhat. If we could, defending that hill until reinforcements (pikes) arrive would be possible IMHO.
About the Nut diplo I will elaborate in that thread.
Another thing of note is that MIA is building Pyramids as well as Colossus which tells us...? That they are planning on making it on their own assuming Nutters are too far behind and TNT are doomed.

 

[scoutsout]

@Daghie: Good catch on MIA starting Pyramids. That is great news... because those 600 shields translate into a lot of troops we won't have to kill.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

The Pyramids is wonderful news! The Colossus is even better news. Those are two major shield sinkholes. Very interesting move by MIA. They obviously aren't seeing a threat from our military unless those are prebuilds for Sun-Tzu and Leo's.

Daghie - I don't know if we have the navy for that move. That is a great idea. Keep hitting them where they ain't

 

[Tubby Rower]

I just opened the save and the hill with the pike has 1 elite immortal. 1 vet immortal, 3 reg immortals, 3 vet pikemen, & 1 reg pikeman. There's also a worker there. Not sure what he's doing other than building a fort and/or a road.

The only other new enemy visible is a barb galley 1 SE of our settler

 

[Kickbooti]

If that is what they are up to, then it gives us time to get some pikes/trebs and pillage the punk out of their core, especially before they build the road and allow greater Immortal mobility.

Of course, it also allows them time to stiffen their cities defenses.

Without opening the save, looks like it could be a slug-fest.

 

[Daghdha]

I suggest we take our whole stack, including the settler (by boat), and go invisible to E of G-polis

I don't know if we have the navy for that move

Clumsy expressed by me. What I ment was the GS's go land route, but the settler can stay in the boat and go seaways. All in all, I'd go for the "sneak behind their SoD"- alternative.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

It looks like TNT is following the red path. We'll want to move away from them and pillage that tile E of the hill before we leave it. Looks like they are going to overplay their strength right into our strength.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Turn 122

Put on “London Calling” to get in the right frame of mind.

Donuts are sending us Monotheism. I accept… I think. Bugsy, remember to check if that took.

Builds – Dunderhead: MDI=>MDI (2 turns) – That’s one nicely set up city.
Jesterton: Market=>court (due in 5, I select this because we could use one more shields out of this city. We’re at 19 spt at the moment.)
Gilfach: pike=>pike (4 turns)
Cretinograph: pike=>pike (6 turns)
DuMass: Treb=>treb (8 turns)

We don’t have much of a technical advantage over the other civs. They have all have Engineering. We are strong to TNT and Donuts, average to MIA. MIA has built the Colossus in Athens this turn.

I move some trebs south towards MIA. I ship chain a GS and treb across using Bede’s Boat and Hunky Dory. Load two new GSs for the front. I use Elvis to do some recon:

Yep, TNT is following the red path outlined earlier. They have placed all their units in that SOD – five immortals and four pikes. Time to set some traps. I decide against settling and move the settlers towards the north. Mobility is more important than the extra 2G we would get out of the city. Plus it doesn’t give TNT a target at the moment. I think as soon as they start chasing our boys back into their lands we can settle.

Josie Wales pillages the road E of the TNT SOD and moves SE. Gather the troops onto two tiles for the sprint across no man’s land.

Here is the situation on the front at the end of the turn:

I fortified the red circled GS. We can use him as a picket. We will also want to leave one GS along the road to pillage just ahead of the TNT SOD. I woke up the worker so we can get him to safety with the settlers. Perhaps send the settlers north with the pikes and treb.

When the SOD moves along the blue path, we run across the no-man’s land to start raising hell in their backyard along the red path. We can send eight GS across, leaving one as a picket/pillager.

Back home – rename a GS on the SW coast to GS Butterball and move him farther down the coast. Move a warrior out of EWR to work as a sentry on the SW coast. Here is the situation there:


Move one worker south towards the jungle. Have the others start improving tiles where they stand.

Change EWR to walls. Short rush two treb builds and completely rush the treb build in Nincompoopcity. Short rush some walls in Senilityville. The gift from Donuts did take. I swapped one citizen to a scientist to cut a turn off invention, but other than that I left things as is. I think we have a nice combination of infrastructure and military on our builds.

Drop lux to zero, Invention due in 8. 5G and 251 gpt.

On closure, the barb galley attacks our galley and loses. We lose 1hp.