What does Cuzco look like?
[Development] Map Suggestions
- Thread starter Leoreth
- Start date
Excellent. My experiments were going nowhere.
ozqar
King
I was thinking of proposing changes to Cuzco as well (it needs more space), but I think Krieger has not shown his changes to Peru yet, right? I was waiting for those before commenting.
Krieger-FS
Warlord
These changes made sense, although I think that the NE title of La Paz should become grassland hills + rainforest to represent the Yungas. I preferred to include potatoes, because it is still today the main agricultural product of Bolivia and also added the cow in the lowlands. Besides, I also made some changes in the region, so the plains in Beni and Santa Cruz departments (the llanos and cerrado) could be more appropriately represented and also leave space for a few improvements. Thus, Bolivia will be capable to have one or two large cities, which I think is a good representation.
The result was quite good:
Spoiler :
Yep! I'm preparing the post about the proposals for Peru and will present soon (probably tomorrow) after we finish our discussion about Bolivia.
Tab911
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jun 20, 2019
- Messages
- 58
Here's India.
First off, something I feel very strongly about is that India should have no silver, gold or wine. India traded spice, cotton, silk, pearls and gems in exchange for silver, gold and wine. Now, I've done quite a bit of research for this one so I am fairly confident about most of the resources that I've added/moved/removed. I didn't think too hard about balance here so I may have gone overboard. Most of the city placement was done for reference so that I would know where I was working in the map and where to place resources. For example, Bangalore and Goa both are significant fruit producers so I chose to place banana between them. The modern borders are also placed mostly for reference.
Added stone 2w of Lahore. Represents limestone and provides a production resource for various Mughal cities. Sheep have been moved south to allow Peshawar, perhaps should be placed 1ne of Islamabad so as to not reach Lahore. Think I added the cow and definitely added the marble to Laknau. Laknau is a leather producing city and produces marble. Could move the marble 1w for Dehli.
Added more cotton to Karachi and clams to water. May have these spawn in later as Karachi's growth is somewhat of a recent phenomenon. Horses moved south to be workable by Mumbai. Crab added off of Mumbai also workable by Goa. Cow moved to 1sw of Bengaluru and aluminum moved 1w. Today this city is known as the "silicon valley" of India. Crowds other cities a bit so I don't think it'll be placed often but the resources are important. Added ivory, gems and rice to Hyderabad. Iron, coal and a later tobacco for India's "Detroit," Visakhapatnam. Copper and fruit added to Nagpur.
Tile changes down here, India extended too far south before so I've shifted it up a bit down here. Sri Lanka has been moved 1n while tiles have been made ocean to fix the shape.
I forget what the two bottom tiles of Sri Lanka were. I placed fish, cotton, spice and pearls as these are historically important exports. Madurai has been given rare earths, rubber and rice. Rice in this area was important to early Tamil civilization while this area is India's leading rubber producer today. two RE's might be too much. one fits Chennai and Bangalore while the other is for Kochi and Madurai.
Dhaka wasn't important until 15/1600, maybe the tile itself should be marsh until then. It's becoming a supercity and produces a ton so I've loaded it out. Cotton, fruit, silk, salt and rice have been added. Rice near Patna has been moved south so it can be worked by Kolkata and Dhaka. Sugar and silk added to Patna and ivory for Kanpur.
First off, something I feel very strongly about is that India should have no silver, gold or wine. India traded spice, cotton, silk, pearls and gems in exchange for silver, gold and wine. Now, I've done quite a bit of research for this one so I am fairly confident about most of the resources that I've added/moved/removed. I didn't think too hard about balance here so I may have gone overboard. Most of the city placement was done for reference so that I would know where I was working in the map and where to place resources. For example, Bangalore and Goa both are significant fruit producers so I chose to place banana between them. The modern borders are also placed mostly for reference.
Spoiler Pakistan :
Added stone 2w of Lahore. Represents limestone and provides a production resource for various Mughal cities. Sheep have been moved south to allow Peshawar, perhaps should be placed 1ne of Islamabad so as to not reach Lahore. Think I added the cow and definitely added the marble to Laknau. Laknau is a leather producing city and produces marble. Could move the marble 1w for Dehli.
Spoiler Central :
Added more cotton to Karachi and clams to water. May have these spawn in later as Karachi's growth is somewhat of a recent phenomenon. Horses moved south to be workable by Mumbai. Crab added off of Mumbai also workable by Goa. Cow moved to 1sw of Bengaluru and aluminum moved 1w. Today this city is known as the "silicon valley" of India. Crowds other cities a bit so I don't think it'll be placed often but the resources are important. Added ivory, gems and rice to Hyderabad. Iron, coal and a later tobacco for India's "Detroit," Visakhapatnam. Copper and fruit added to Nagpur.
Spoiler Sri Lanka :
Tile changes down here, India extended too far south before so I've shifted it up a bit down here. Sri Lanka has been moved 1n while tiles have been made ocean to fix the shape.
I forget what the two bottom tiles of Sri Lanka were. I placed fish, cotton, spice and pearls as these are historically important exports. Madurai has been given rare earths, rubber and rice. Rice in this area was important to early Tamil civilization while this area is India's leading rubber producer today. two RE's might be too much. one fits Chennai and Bangalore while the other is for Kochi and Madurai.
Spoiler East :
Dhaka wasn't important until 15/1600, maybe the tile itself should be marsh until then. It's becoming a supercity and produces a ton so I've loaded it out. Cotton, fruit, silk, salt and rice have been added. Rice near Patna has been moved south so it can be worked by Kolkata and Dhaka. Sugar and silk added to Patna and ivory for Kanpur.
Krieger-FS
Warlord
Now, Peru, with the original map bellow:
Ancient Peru is one of the five cradle of civilizations in the world, where the North Chico/Caral civilization was contemporary of Ancient Egypt and the Harappa and would exist by the DoC start date in 3000 BCE. The civilizations here had unique features, such the lack of wheel and proper writing, the lattter which also helps to explain part of our lack of knowledge about them. In the next millennia, several civilizations rised and fallen in the area, until the Inca conquered almost all peoples in the area and created their impressive empire by mid-15th century CE. The Incas were amidst a civil war when the Spanish arrived, which made their conquest easier by 1533, even though there was resistance by a neo-Inca state until the last decades of the century. Peru quickly became one of the most important Spanish colonies thanks to her huge mineral wealth, mostly gold and silver, and was made a viceroyalty by 1542. By early 19th century the Peruvian mining economy was in decline and independence was achieved following the combined military operations of José San Martín and Simon Bolívar. Although plagued by territorial issues, Peru had relatively political stability by mid-19th century, fuelled by the guano and, later, saltpetre exports. After her defeat in the War of the Pacific, Peru once again suffered for internal political turmoil, even though the country was considered the fourth power (behind only the ABC, Argentina, Brazil and Chile) in the South American balance of power system. From the 1930s on, Peru engaged a series of limited wars against her northern neighbours over territorial issues, including the Leticia War with Colombia (1932-1933) and three conflicts against Ecuador (in 1941, 1981 and 1995). The political domestic turmoil was constant during much of 20th century, with emergence of populist regimes, military dictatorships, guerrilla movements and several coup d'etat until 2000. Since then, Peru passed by a democratization process and have experienced a constant economic growth.
The map proposal:
Main changes:
1) moved the mountain tittle 1E of Cuzco 1N, giving the city more space.
2) added the Madre de Dios river (already mentioned in Bolivia discussion) in the south, while also Napo and Putumayo rivers in the north (Amazon basin, near Iquitos)
3) made coastal Peru drier, adding semi-desert titles along the plain titles. Many of these titles could also be converted to full-deserts, as the Peruvian coast is marked by deserts, but I didn't done for fears that these changes would negatively affect the settling in the area and the growth/production of the cities.
4) changed several marshes and jungle titles in Peruvian Amazon to rainforest, representing major waterways along the rivers also allowing the founding of few cities.
I must admit that I'm not really satisfied with the map, particularly with the straight mountain lines representing the Andes, which I feel unpolished and somewhat artificial. I know that the game impose certain limitations and we have the gameplay factor of avoiding Inca settling in the Amazon, but I feel that these areas could be improved. Also, we have to include a mountain pass here, as colonial/post-independence civs here should be capable of colonizing the Peruvian Amazon. Ideally, I think it should be in one of the mountains near Lima, as that would give more space for city growth (Lima is the third largest city in Latin America nowadays).
Resources:
Pre-Colonial:
Sheep (1E of Cuzco): represents the llama and alpaca herding.
Corn (1SE of Cuzco): represents pre-Colonial farming near Titicaca lake, which was essential to many civilizations that arouse in the area. It could be a potatoes resource, but I've added the corn to represent the native maize production and give the area some food diversity.
Stone (1W of Arequipa): This location is somewhat arbitrary, as are much of other pre-colonial resources. The Incas had several stone quarries along the roads in all their empire and apparently they had some religious functions as well.
Silver (1W of Cuzco): represents the main Peruvian silver mines, the main economic product from colonial times. Peru is still today one of the largest producers of silver in world.
Gold (1SE of Lima): another resource quite important during colonial times and still important today. The location represents the mines in Huancavelica, which were the most important during colonial times.
2 Potatoes (2S1E of Lima and 1S of Trujillo): one of the main agricultural products (the other being corn) of Peru, both historically and nowadays. The location of these resources are also somewhat arbitrary and can be changed. In general, the potatoes farms are located in the Andean valleys.
Cotton (Piura title): cotton was also planted in Peru since pre-Columbian era. Again, the location is somewhat arbitrary, as cotton mainly was (and still is) cultivated in all coastal areas.
Dyes (1SW of Iquitos): it was an important trade product for all civilizations in the pre-Columbian era, which was obtained both from Andean valleys and also in Amazon areas. A little article about the more important sources and kind of dyes used can be found here. Again, it is in a somewhat arbitrary place.
2 Clams (1SW of Trujillo 3S of Lima): represents the clams used for currency, religious practices and almost anything else in pre-Columbian times.
Crab (1SW of Lima): because farming was difficult in the Andes and in desertic coastal areas, many of the indigenous peoples and civilizations in Ancient Peru were dependent of fishing for food. The crab here represents the small crustaceans (like shrimps) that were and still are important to Peruvian cuisine.
2 Fish (1N of Piura and 2S1W of Arequipa): as already mentioned, fishing was very important for Pre-Columbian civilizations and nowadays Peru has a large fishing industry, whose main products are the corvina and anchovy.
Whales (1S3W of Lima): Peru had an important whaling industry until the 1980s, which had also connections with Japanese whaling industry.
Post-Independence:
Cooper (Tacna title): Peru is one of the largest producers of cooper in the world nowadays. As I mentioned in the discussion about Chile, the indigenous peoples in the area knew bronzeworking when the Spanish arrived, so this resource could be pre-placed since pre-colonial era, but large mining operations only started in 19th century.
Rubber (1S of Iquitos): Peruvian Amazon also experimented the rubber boom in late 19th century, even though the commercial exploitation was less important than in Brazil.
2 Oil (2S of Pucallpa and 1NW of Iquitos): represents the main oil reserves in the region. I should note that the northern oil don't is really located in Peru, but in Ecuador (oil is the main product of the country). The reason is because I found quite difficult to represent properly the Ecuadorian territory, but we will discuss about it later.
Spoiler :
Ancient Peru is one of the five cradle of civilizations in the world, where the North Chico/Caral civilization was contemporary of Ancient Egypt and the Harappa and would exist by the DoC start date in 3000 BCE. The civilizations here had unique features, such the lack of wheel and proper writing, the lattter which also helps to explain part of our lack of knowledge about them. In the next millennia, several civilizations rised and fallen in the area, until the Inca conquered almost all peoples in the area and created their impressive empire by mid-15th century CE. The Incas were amidst a civil war when the Spanish arrived, which made their conquest easier by 1533, even though there was resistance by a neo-Inca state until the last decades of the century. Peru quickly became one of the most important Spanish colonies thanks to her huge mineral wealth, mostly gold and silver, and was made a viceroyalty by 1542. By early 19th century the Peruvian mining economy was in decline and independence was achieved following the combined military operations of José San Martín and Simon Bolívar. Although plagued by territorial issues, Peru had relatively political stability by mid-19th century, fuelled by the guano and, later, saltpetre exports. After her defeat in the War of the Pacific, Peru once again suffered for internal political turmoil, even though the country was considered the fourth power (behind only the ABC, Argentina, Brazil and Chile) in the South American balance of power system. From the 1930s on, Peru engaged a series of limited wars against her northern neighbours over territorial issues, including the Leticia War with Colombia (1932-1933) and three conflicts against Ecuador (in 1941, 1981 and 1995). The political domestic turmoil was constant during much of 20th century, with emergence of populist regimes, military dictatorships, guerrilla movements and several coup d'etat until 2000. Since then, Peru passed by a democratization process and have experienced a constant economic growth.
The map proposal:
Spoiler :
Main changes:
1) moved the mountain tittle 1E of Cuzco 1N, giving the city more space.
2) added the Madre de Dios river (already mentioned in Bolivia discussion) in the south, while also Napo and Putumayo rivers in the north (Amazon basin, near Iquitos)
3) made coastal Peru drier, adding semi-desert titles along the plain titles. Many of these titles could also be converted to full-deserts, as the Peruvian coast is marked by deserts, but I didn't done for fears that these changes would negatively affect the settling in the area and the growth/production of the cities.
4) changed several marshes and jungle titles in Peruvian Amazon to rainforest, representing major waterways along the rivers also allowing the founding of few cities.
I must admit that I'm not really satisfied with the map, particularly with the straight mountain lines representing the Andes, which I feel unpolished and somewhat artificial. I know that the game impose certain limitations and we have the gameplay factor of avoiding Inca settling in the Amazon, but I feel that these areas could be improved. Also, we have to include a mountain pass here, as colonial/post-independence civs here should be capable of colonizing the Peruvian Amazon. Ideally, I think it should be in one of the mountains near Lima, as that would give more space for city growth (Lima is the third largest city in Latin America nowadays).
Resources:
Spoiler :
Pre-Colonial:
Sheep (1E of Cuzco): represents the llama and alpaca herding.
Corn (1SE of Cuzco): represents pre-Colonial farming near Titicaca lake, which was essential to many civilizations that arouse in the area. It could be a potatoes resource, but I've added the corn to represent the native maize production and give the area some food diversity.
Stone (1W of Arequipa): This location is somewhat arbitrary, as are much of other pre-colonial resources. The Incas had several stone quarries along the roads in all their empire and apparently they had some religious functions as well.
Silver (1W of Cuzco): represents the main Peruvian silver mines, the main economic product from colonial times. Peru is still today one of the largest producers of silver in world.
Gold (1SE of Lima): another resource quite important during colonial times and still important today. The location represents the mines in Huancavelica, which were the most important during colonial times.
2 Potatoes (2S1E of Lima and 1S of Trujillo): one of the main agricultural products (the other being corn) of Peru, both historically and nowadays. The location of these resources are also somewhat arbitrary and can be changed. In general, the potatoes farms are located in the Andean valleys.
Cotton (Piura title): cotton was also planted in Peru since pre-Columbian era. Again, the location is somewhat arbitrary, as cotton mainly was (and still is) cultivated in all coastal areas.
Dyes (1SW of Iquitos): it was an important trade product for all civilizations in the pre-Columbian era, which was obtained both from Andean valleys and also in Amazon areas. A little article about the more important sources and kind of dyes used can be found here. Again, it is in a somewhat arbitrary place.
2 Clams (1SW of Trujillo 3S of Lima): represents the clams used for currency, religious practices and almost anything else in pre-Columbian times.
Crab (1SW of Lima): because farming was difficult in the Andes and in desertic coastal areas, many of the indigenous peoples and civilizations in Ancient Peru were dependent of fishing for food. The crab here represents the small crustaceans (like shrimps) that were and still are important to Peruvian cuisine.
2 Fish (1N of Piura and 2S1W of Arequipa): as already mentioned, fishing was very important for Pre-Columbian civilizations and nowadays Peru has a large fishing industry, whose main products are the corvina and anchovy.
Whales (1S3W of Lima): Peru had an important whaling industry until the 1980s, which had also connections with Japanese whaling industry.
Post-Independence:
Cooper (Tacna title): Peru is one of the largest producers of cooper in the world nowadays. As I mentioned in the discussion about Chile, the indigenous peoples in the area knew bronzeworking when the Spanish arrived, so this resource could be pre-placed since pre-colonial era, but large mining operations only started in 19th century.
Rubber (1S of Iquitos): Peruvian Amazon also experimented the rubber boom in late 19th century, even though the commercial exploitation was less important than in Brazil.
2 Oil (2S of Pucallpa and 1NW of Iquitos): represents the main oil reserves in the region. I should note that the northern oil don't is really located in Peru, but in Ecuador (oil is the main product of the country). The reason is because I found quite difficult to represent properly the Ecuadorian territory, but we will discuss about it later.
Last edited:
Publicola
King
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2014
- Messages
- 759
You're right that desert is probably more realistic for some of those tiles, but changing the plains to even semideserts would make it extremely difficult to plant and grow cities as the Inca or future civs in the area. I'm inclined to keep the whole coast (besides the Atacama, which has to be desert) as plains just to ensure the Inca have room to grow.
Krieger-FS
Warlord
Yeah, that's why I limited the semi-desert to a few places, mixing with existing plains. I don't know if is very clear the distinction between these terrain features in the proposal, so to make clearer, I added 5 semi-deserts titles, which are in Tacna, the stone title (both which are still the Atacama), the hills NW of Lima, Trujillo and Piura (the Sechura Desert). If we decide to use the full-desert title, I would place it only in Tacna and Piura, so the effects are somewhat limited.
merijn_v1
Black Belt
Do they allow the same improvements? If they do not, the difference between them is more than just aesthetics.
Krieger-FS
Warlord
About the Ecuador and Colombia, with the original map bellow:
Ecuador and Colombia were inhabited by several indigenous peoples in pre-Columbian era, and some of them were organized in complex and urban societies. Ecuador was part of the Inca Empire, while Colombia was dominated by the proto-state of Muisca Confederation. The Spanish conquered the area in early 16th century and use it as base for their Inca conquest, naming it as Nueva Granada under the viceroyalty of Peru. While the Ecuadorian economy was mostly based in producing foodstuff for the mining areas in the viceroyalty, the Colombian was diverse and passed through several cycles. As such, Colombia initially focused the mining activities, focusing in the gold and gemstones (particularly emerald) production in the highland, while later developed a cash crops farming (mostly sugar) with African slaves in coastal areas. In early 18th century, the colony was elevated to its own viceroyalty (New Granada), which had under authority all territory of present-day Ecuador, Colombia, Panamá and Venezuela. The independence was proclaimed in 1819 after a long period of conflict by the forces of Simón Bolívar, but several areas were still under royalist control until 1823. Bolívar hoped to build a strong republic, the Gran Colombia, that encompassed all former territories of the viceroyalty, but she was unstable and soon divided in the three modern South American countries. Both Colombia and Ecuador suffered constant political instability and had several border issues, especially in the Amazon region, where both countries, Peru and Brazil had contested claims, with frequent armed clashes between the first three. After losing Panamá by a US-supported rebellion, Colombia finally achieved some internal stability with a growing coffee-based economy, however the domestic instability returned by 1940s in the period known as La Violencia. In the following decades, Colombia continued to suffer political instability and saw the emergence of several powerful guerrillas movements and drugs barons, while the country became more closely aligned to the US. Likewise, Ecuador also suffered from constant political turmoil and from the territorial issues, which led to three small wars against Peru. The condition of both countries considerably improved by the 1990s, although the area is still somewhat instable.
My proposal for the new map:
I should stress that the area is somewhat distorted, with an enlargement of coastal/lower Andes at the cost of inland areas. This is not a problem by itself, as Amazon region in that area is underpopulated and undeveloped, but creates some difficulties with the gameplay objective of blocking the Incas, as many possible mountain titles became hills. I come with two possible solutions: a) add two mountain titles in Pasto and Bogotá titles, converting in hills by 1500 CE (a little bit earlier than most of other South American mountain passes because the Spanish historically arrived here earlier) or b) add an independent/native city in Bogotá with proper garrison and spawning by 1400 CE called Bacatá, the capital of the Muisca. While the former option will completely block the Incas to their maximum empire extent, the second would allow us to represent more properly the indigenous civilizations in Colombia, even though it will be more likely to found Inca units around the Caribbean. Either way, is just few suggestions and I'm open for discussions.
1) added several rainforests in the area, as much of the area was covered with it.
2) added a mountain title 1S of Quito. In reality, Ecuadorian territory is roughly divided in three parts: the coastal area, the Andes in the middle and the Amazon in east. In game, doing the same would leave an open passage for Inca settlement in Amazon and we would be unable to found Quito (the most canonical Ecuadorian city and located in the Andes at 2.850 mts). We could change the SE mountain of Quito to became hills grassland + rainforest by 1550 CE, so the area became close to reality.
3) removed the isolated mountain in 1N of Cali, turning this and the below titles into hills. I suppose that it meant originally to represent the Baudó mountains, but these peaks are relatively low when compared with the Andes in the east, which are represented as hills + mountains.
4) turned the Amazon marshes into jungles and rainforests.
5) cleared one marsh title and added plains in the east to represent the llanos. As the region is quite prone to flooding, I leaved one marsh title, but it can be removed if we want.
Resources:
Pre-colonial:
2 Cocoa (1SE of Guayaquil and 1N of Medellín): represents the cocoa beans production since indigenous era. Cocoa was also explored in later periods and was the main product of Ecuador in late 19th century.
Dye (1W of Quito): the indigenous peoples in Ecuador often traded dyes with the pre-Columbian civilizations in Peru. This resource could disappear in colonial/post-independence era, turning in a banana, which was the main agricultural product of Ecuador in much of 20th century.
Crab (2W of Quito): Ecuador has a large shrimp fishing production nowadays, which is represented by this resource. Alternatively, it could be an clam in pre-colonial times, as the Andean civilizations used it extensively as mentioned in the Peru post and they were exploited also in Ecuadorian waters.
Gold (Pasto title): represents the gold reserves of Colombia, which were exploited also by the indigenous peoples.
Gems (Medellín tile): represents emeralds (could be the Jade resource?), also mined since indigenous era. Nowadays Colombia is the largest emerald producer in the world, with 50-95% of the world production. It could be two resources in post-independence period if we want.
Corn (1NE of Bogotá): mostly added to the city be able to grow properly. Either way, could be corn or potatoes, as both were cultivated since pre-colonial times, although nowadays corn is more important afaik.
Colonial:
Sugar (Cali title): represents the sugar plantations in colonial Colombia. Could also be located in the Caribbean coast.
Banana (1NW of Medellín): Colombia is famed for its bananas production and it is currently the third largest exporter, behind only Ecuador and Costa Rica. Also, I remember that another banana resource must be placed in Ecuador, possibly switching with the Dye there.
Horse (3E of Medellín): represents the husbandry in the llanos and also giving horse for one of Colombia's UU, which is the Colombian/Venezuelan equivalent of the Platine gaucho, Chilean huaso and Peruvian morochuco.
Post-independence and modern:
2 Coffee (1W of Medellín and 1NE of Cartagena): represents the famous Colombian coffee production, which was the main Colombian product during much of 19th and 20th centuries.
Rubber (2S3E of Bogotá): represents the natural rubber tree area in Colombian Amazon.
Spoiler :
Ecuador and Colombia were inhabited by several indigenous peoples in pre-Columbian era, and some of them were organized in complex and urban societies. Ecuador was part of the Inca Empire, while Colombia was dominated by the proto-state of Muisca Confederation. The Spanish conquered the area in early 16th century and use it as base for their Inca conquest, naming it as Nueva Granada under the viceroyalty of Peru. While the Ecuadorian economy was mostly based in producing foodstuff for the mining areas in the viceroyalty, the Colombian was diverse and passed through several cycles. As such, Colombia initially focused the mining activities, focusing in the gold and gemstones (particularly emerald) production in the highland, while later developed a cash crops farming (mostly sugar) with African slaves in coastal areas. In early 18th century, the colony was elevated to its own viceroyalty (New Granada), which had under authority all territory of present-day Ecuador, Colombia, Panamá and Venezuela. The independence was proclaimed in 1819 after a long period of conflict by the forces of Simón Bolívar, but several areas were still under royalist control until 1823. Bolívar hoped to build a strong republic, the Gran Colombia, that encompassed all former territories of the viceroyalty, but she was unstable and soon divided in the three modern South American countries. Both Colombia and Ecuador suffered constant political instability and had several border issues, especially in the Amazon region, where both countries, Peru and Brazil had contested claims, with frequent armed clashes between the first three. After losing Panamá by a US-supported rebellion, Colombia finally achieved some internal stability with a growing coffee-based economy, however the domestic instability returned by 1940s in the period known as La Violencia. In the following decades, Colombia continued to suffer political instability and saw the emergence of several powerful guerrillas movements and drugs barons, while the country became more closely aligned to the US. Likewise, Ecuador also suffered from constant political turmoil and from the territorial issues, which led to three small wars against Peru. The condition of both countries considerably improved by the 1990s, although the area is still somewhat instable.
My proposal for the new map:
Spoiler :
I should stress that the area is somewhat distorted, with an enlargement of coastal/lower Andes at the cost of inland areas. This is not a problem by itself, as Amazon region in that area is underpopulated and undeveloped, but creates some difficulties with the gameplay objective of blocking the Incas, as many possible mountain titles became hills. I come with two possible solutions: a) add two mountain titles in Pasto and Bogotá titles, converting in hills by 1500 CE (a little bit earlier than most of other South American mountain passes because the Spanish historically arrived here earlier) or b) add an independent/native city in Bogotá with proper garrison and spawning by 1400 CE called Bacatá, the capital of the Muisca. While the former option will completely block the Incas to their maximum empire extent, the second would allow us to represent more properly the indigenous civilizations in Colombia, even though it will be more likely to found Inca units around the Caribbean. Either way, is just few suggestions and I'm open for discussions.
1) added several rainforests in the area, as much of the area was covered with it.
2) added a mountain title 1S of Quito. In reality, Ecuadorian territory is roughly divided in three parts: the coastal area, the Andes in the middle and the Amazon in east. In game, doing the same would leave an open passage for Inca settlement in Amazon and we would be unable to found Quito (the most canonical Ecuadorian city and located in the Andes at 2.850 mts). We could change the SE mountain of Quito to became hills grassland + rainforest by 1550 CE, so the area became close to reality.
3) removed the isolated mountain in 1N of Cali, turning this and the below titles into hills. I suppose that it meant originally to represent the Baudó mountains, but these peaks are relatively low when compared with the Andes in the east, which are represented as hills + mountains.
4) turned the Amazon marshes into jungles and rainforests.
5) cleared one marsh title and added plains in the east to represent the llanos. As the region is quite prone to flooding, I leaved one marsh title, but it can be removed if we want.
Resources:
Spoiler :
Pre-colonial:
2 Cocoa (1SE of Guayaquil and 1N of Medellín): represents the cocoa beans production since indigenous era. Cocoa was also explored in later periods and was the main product of Ecuador in late 19th century.
Dye (1W of Quito): the indigenous peoples in Ecuador often traded dyes with the pre-Columbian civilizations in Peru. This resource could disappear in colonial/post-independence era, turning in a banana, which was the main agricultural product of Ecuador in much of 20th century.
Crab (2W of Quito): Ecuador has a large shrimp fishing production nowadays, which is represented by this resource. Alternatively, it could be an clam in pre-colonial times, as the Andean civilizations used it extensively as mentioned in the Peru post and they were exploited also in Ecuadorian waters.
Gold (Pasto title): represents the gold reserves of Colombia, which were exploited also by the indigenous peoples.
Gems (Medellín tile): represents emeralds (could be the Jade resource?), also mined since indigenous era. Nowadays Colombia is the largest emerald producer in the world, with 50-95% of the world production. It could be two resources in post-independence period if we want.
Corn (1NE of Bogotá): mostly added to the city be able to grow properly. Either way, could be corn or potatoes, as both were cultivated since pre-colonial times, although nowadays corn is more important afaik.
Colonial:
Sugar (Cali title): represents the sugar plantations in colonial Colombia. Could also be located in the Caribbean coast.
Banana (1NW of Medellín): Colombia is famed for its bananas production and it is currently the third largest exporter, behind only Ecuador and Costa Rica. Also, I remember that another banana resource must be placed in Ecuador, possibly switching with the Dye there.
Horse (3E of Medellín): represents the husbandry in the llanos and also giving horse for one of Colombia's UU, which is the Colombian/Venezuelan equivalent of the Platine gaucho, Chilean huaso and Peruvian morochuco.
Post-independence and modern:
2 Coffee (1W of Medellín and 1NE of Cartagena): represents the famous Colombian coffee production, which was the main Colombian product during much of 19th and 20th centuries.
Rubber (2S3E of Bogotá): represents the natural rubber tree area in Colombian Amazon.
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Three questions:
- why does rubber only spawn post independence? Isn't it a native crop in the region?
- would you suggest for Bacatá and Bogotá to share the same tile, even though they are located quite far apart in reality? I guess the etymological connection between the cities and having a nice transition from a placed native capital to the colonial capital of Colombia would be nice, I am just checking.
- lastly, if possible, can you show more sites for pre-columbian cities along the Andes (including Peru and Chile) so I can better visualise how they would work out with these changes?
Then some notes on my roadmap:
- there are a couple of recent smaller suggestions that I will tackle next, the most significant affecting the Mediterranean, India and Southeast Asia
- next are Finbros' suggestions for European Russia, Central Asia and Siberia (as far as they got, unfortunately)
- last are the South American suggestions that are still going on (by Krieger-FS and their predecessors)
That's right, there has been so much South American content now that working on Russia seems less daunting by comparison.
By the way, I feel really good about the map by now, every part of the world where suggestions haven't forced me to review it have very high quality suggestions remaining so at the very least I can be certain that I have given at least one pass to all regions of the world.
- why does rubber only spawn post independence? Isn't it a native crop in the region?
- would you suggest for Bacatá and Bogotá to share the same tile, even though they are located quite far apart in reality? I guess the etymological connection between the cities and having a nice transition from a placed native capital to the colonial capital of Colombia would be nice, I am just checking.
- lastly, if possible, can you show more sites for pre-columbian cities along the Andes (including Peru and Chile) so I can better visualise how they would work out with these changes?
Then some notes on my roadmap:
- there are a couple of recent smaller suggestions that I will tackle next, the most significant affecting the Mediterranean, India and Southeast Asia
- next are Finbros' suggestions for European Russia, Central Asia and Siberia (as far as they got, unfortunately)
- last are the South American suggestions that are still going on (by Krieger-FS and their predecessors)
That's right, there has been so much South American content now that working on Russia seems less daunting by comparison.
By the way, I feel really good about the map by now, every part of the world where suggestions haven't forced me to review it have very high quality suggestions remaining so at the very least I can be certain that I have given at least one pass to all regions of the world.
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At some point I had a (now aborted) project of adding the Muisca as a civ. I thought they were probably the best Native American civ candidate outside of Peru and Mesoamerica, but their small territory eventually led me to think they wouldn’t make an interesting game. With some creativity and a larger map it could still be possible; otherwise a native city would be appropriate.
For the record, I was planning for their capital of Bacatá to become Bogotá upon conquest. Bacatá actually refers more to a region than a single settlement anyway, and is less than one tile away from modern Bogotá.
For the record, I was planning for their capital of Bacatá to become Bogotá upon conquest. Bacatá actually refers more to a region than a single settlement anyway, and is less than one tile away from modern Bogotá.
The Muisca are interesting. There really is very little going on in South America which both reflects or lacking historical understanding of its pre-columbian history but also our biases. Still, they were rather small so right off the bat it's hard to think what their game would look like.
soul-breathing
Emperor
@krieger-fs
Should Lake Maracaibo be a lagoon? The oil could be on the lagoon.
Should Lake Maracaibo be a lagoon? The oil could be on the lagoon.
Krieger-FS
Warlord
I'm really happy to help, as I have played the game and the mod for a long time. Taking the opportunity, I like to give you my thank you for making this mod for so long.
About the questions:
1 - I only added as post-independence because it wouldn't be shown in the map until them. It is only a way to make more clear when these resources became important, similar to the rare earths, coal and the uranium in other places. And you are right, it is a native crop and should be pre-placed.
2 - Yeah, I think they should share the same title, having the mentioned nice transition to the colonial capital. I agree completely with Steb in this sense.
3 - It is on my list to do. After I finish my map suggestions for South America (I probably will make the last post, about Venezuela and the Guyanas, tomorrow), I will discuss about the canonical cites in pre-Colonial and Colonial (thinking in the 1700 scenario) era.
Yeah, I will discuss these countries soon, as mentioned before. While initially I would be in favor to maintain as an actual water title, I think it is likely possible to use the lagoon. Afaik, there is not a common and widely accepted definition about what precisely the lake Maracaibo is, with interpretations that range from lake, bay or lagoon. So I think it is worth to experiment with the lagoon and see which one we think is more aesthetically interesting.
Either option we chose, I would prefer not put an oil on it, even considering that most of its reserves are located under the lake. If it is a lagoon, it would be the canonical location of the city Maracaibo, one of the oldest and the second largest of Venezuela. If it is a water title, it would not be possible to exploit the resource until much later ingame, something historically inaccurate since it was here that the first Venezuelan oil reserves were discovered and exploited in early 20th century.
Great! These contributions that take geographical and historical knowledge that come from a holistic understanding of a region are invaluable and cannot be replaced with just aimless internet research, so I'm glad you found something to give back to the mod.
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